Author Topic: Craynerd new workshop project log  (Read 13128 times)

Offline raynerd

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Craynerd new workshop project log
« on: September 07, 2014, 03:38:36 AM »
I've now been in my house a week and a day and I've unboxed enough to start thinking about my new workshop. I've got countless questions and as always, I appreciate anyone's opinion and ideas. Rather than posting individual questions on the forum, I'll stick them all in here a bit like a project log.

The first issue is that the 18' x 8' garage is concrete in print. There is a leak in the roof which I need to seal but there is also damp coming through in one corner! I'm struggling to see exactly where it's from other than simply the join not tight enough in the corner. What's the best way of sealing it?? There is no clear gap to fill!

On a similar thought, the concrete panels that lie on the ground have holes in them for bolting together. The ones on the bottom that sit on the floor have nothing in them and I'm pretty sure that earth/soil is being pushed up through very slowly over time. Would I be best just using something to poke out the soil and cementing these up?

Door
I have both a main up and over door and a normal door next to each other. I know a lot of garage workshop owners bolt up the up and over door for security. I'm thinking of doing this also and it will also give me more room putting things up against that end of the workshop.
The wooden door is rotten and worn at the bottom. I'd like to buy a new door and my grandfather said to stick in a cheap uPVC door but that would require a frame fitting with a bottom cross piece and I want to keep the bottom free from any frame or cross piece so that things can be walked, wheeled and brought in easily without tripping. This does have the disadvantage that a little damp is coming in from below the current door as water simply comes under it with no barrier in the way. What would you do? What door would you fit? The current door needs changing as one of the first jobs.


Lights[\b]
There are currently 2x.  5' tubes in the centre. I have 3x 6' tubes in storage from my old shop. Would all those tubes be overkill - there is also a window.

I think getting these basics would be good this week before moving anything in. I'll post some pics later.
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Offline Pete.

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2014, 05:18:31 AM »
Pre-cast panels on the floor is not unusual, but it's normal for there to be an air gap below them. If you have no air gap you're going to need a moisture barrier of some kind else the floor will be forever damp even if you grout the gaps with cement.

Need a photo of the floor, and the damp section.

What door is an easy choice for me - an old fire door. Impossible to break through, hugely long-lasting and of course very fire resistant. You can usually get one at any local demolition site, I have some lovely hardwood ones on site right now but it's too far away for you.

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2014, 06:31:09 AM »
Thanks for the reply Pete. I've attached a picture of the damp inside, picture of the printed concrete on the outside and one of the door. Looks like there is a slope on the concrete going into the door!!
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Offline awemawson

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2014, 07:07:49 AM »
Chris,

I'm afraid that those issues are rather typical of the various pre-cast concrete garages I've been involved with. My foundry at the last house had two extensions on it that I made from sections of dismantled pre-cast concrete garage assembled into a different configuration. Obviously there are tolerances in the making of the slabs, and both mine when I dismantled them has 'gaskets' of gooey stuff that had obviously been squirted on when they were originally assembled between the slabs and on the floor. Where they sit on the concrete base, unless it slopes away you will always get rain driven under them. Can be reduced by a generous fillet of cement at 45 degrees in the base / wall junction on the outside. Most certainly you must ensure that there is no build up of earth or leaves against the base of the walls.

Don't expect it ever to be truly dry.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Pete.

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2014, 08:37:37 AM »
I does look like the concrete put outside has a fall towards the wall - that'll be the source of most of your damp. Probably have a prevailing wind against that wall too I guess. Hard to say what the cure is - you could cut a section out of the path alongside the wall, dig it out 6" deep and fill with stones, or build a small canopy along that wall so the rain water falls outside the pathway. Personally I'd smash out that path and lay a new one with a healthy fall away from the building, and I'd lay a DPM inside the shop, bring it up the walls a bit and screed over it to keep the floor dry (and flat). a ton bag of sharp sand, few bags of cement and a borrowed mixer would sort that easy.

Offline spuddevans

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2014, 10:09:26 AM »
Lights[\b]
There are currently 2x.  5' tubes in the centre. I have 3x 6' tubes in storage from my old shop. Would all those tubes be overkill - there is also a window.

I would say that you can never have too many lights. My workshop is 16ft x 10ft and I have 2 rows of flourescents, one row is 2 5ft single tubes and 1 6ft, and then above my lathe and mill I have the other row, 2 double 4ft tubes and 1 single 5ft tube

I recently got my grubby little hands on a couple of  flourescent fittings (like office lights for suspended ceiling) they are 2ft square and take 4 2ft tubes, I'm gonna put a perspex shield on them and bung one above the lathe and another above the mill.

The more light the better (just remember to slap on the factor 30 suncream before going in the workshop!!


Tim
Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe  -  MI0TME

Offline dsquire

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2014, 01:41:20 PM »
Chris

Moving is for the birds and I am glad to see that you have that behind you. I hope that you are able to find your photo resizer soon as I refuse to play the up, down, left, right, do it all over again game to try and figure out what I am supose to be looking at.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don

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Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2014, 03:24:00 PM »
Cheers chaps,

Pete - can you tell me more about physically how I would "lay a DPM inside the shop"?

Tim - that was my intention and I`m pleased you have confirmed it.

Andrew - the fillet of concrete certainly seems a good idea.

I was talking to my father in law and he thought about completely blocking up and bricking in, or ideally matching in with concrete sections, the door and then bricking up the main garage door and putting the walk in door in that wall. It would remove the garage door for security reasons and also shift the door away from that wet concreted side. In all honest, what I intend to do with the garden will require me to bash up that concrete path anyway but I still like this idea.

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Offline Jonny

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2014, 04:42:38 PM »
For the reasons said already I would weigh up the costs involved in laying DPM barrier and concreting over along with door, lining the walls and roof plus other rework to make habitable. Noticed some prefab garages the other week starting at 2k but how much for a proper brick.

Luckily your door and frame is easy to do unlike the pvc which have a step and open inwards, the main reason I have not been able to change. Fire doors good and will be able to shovel the swarf out without lodging in the pvc seal.

If theres damp you will always feel cold and uncomfortable, think it through for the long term.

Offline Pete.

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2014, 06:54:56 PM »
A DPM is a damp-proof membrane. Nothing more than a sheet of heavy polythene (500-1000gsm you need) laid on the floor and curled up the walls then concrete or screed on top. It forms a barrier for damp so it's important to hoover the floor or give it a really good sweep so it doesn't get cut on anything sharp whilst you walk abou ton it laying screed.

Offline Arbalist

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2014, 11:02:57 PM »
I've had a couple of concrete garages as workshops and also a brick built, they all let the damp in sadly. One thing I did to improve lighting levels on one of them was to paint the walls with white emulsion, makes a huge difference. I've just recently had a concrete garage knocked down and replaced with a wooden cabin on a new concrete base.

Offline Kjelle

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2014, 05:47:38 AM »
Chris, When looking at those pic's, I guess it is not properly drained under the concrete (after looking at British home improvement programs on telly, I gather it's pretty normal...). As you are to smash the concrete outside, dig down and drain all around the building. Also, a dehumidifier will help with the inside climate... Good overall lightning and point lights at the machines makes for a good working environment. Remember that a concrete building do pass humidity through the wall (not so much) and floor (depending on drainage below).

The fire door idea seems like a good idea, get one or two extra locks (one high, one low on the door), and pin the hinges and door hinge side (pins in the door, holes in the frame), and the scumbags will need a motor driven cutter to get in. If you brick up the garage door, make sure the entrance is big enough to move machines in and out without resorting to major deconstruction of either said machine or building!

Good luck!

Kjelle

Offline Eugene

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2014, 09:40:13 AM »
Chris,

The big enemy you have is damp, all the rest is pretty small beer, but damp is a real killer in a workshop as I found out last winter (it has been known to rain in Wales!) when I went through a similar exercise. It looks as if most of the trouble is coming under the plinth that the wall panels sit on, plus a bit through the slinging holes and I'd tackle those issues head on.

Without seeing more detailed pics, my vote would be for the DPM and concrete raft on the inside floor; it's fast, easy and relatively cheap. Put a course of blue bricks across the thresholds of both doors, and lay the concrete making sure the PVC is turned up above the new floor level. Then make a ramp for the main door entrance to get heavy stuff in and out; you can leave the side door with a step if you like. On the outside, thoroughly jet wash the path / wall junction, and using a PVA mix plus some PVA painted on the interfaces to ensure adhesion of your cement, lay a fillet.  If you want a flexible finish, don't bother with the fillet, just give it a couple of thick coats of bitumen.

I wouldn't hand mix, that's a tedious pain; half a load of ready mix and you could have the whole job done in a day and a half. Day one, jet wash inside and out, lay the blues, drop the PVC in together with any reinforce. Day two pour the concrete, lay the fillet or bitumen, bodge the ramp. Four hundred quid should cover it easy, and you won't have any b***** digging out or rubble to get rid of, the path can stay put.

Again without seeing the penetration through the gaps / corners, a can of expanding foam works wonders.

Eug

« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 10:09:23 AM by Eugene »

Offline awemawson

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2014, 10:11:55 AM »
I agree that Eugene's plan is a good one BUT if you lay the blue bricks on day 1 and try and concrete on day 2 be assured that you WILL disturb the bricks.

If you are not accustomed to floating concrete I would strongly advise getting someone to do it for you who is. As you are working to in-situ walls you cannot easily tamp with a board and getting it sufficiently flat and level in no mean task. I have an office in one of our outbuildings, where a previous owner tried floating a floor just as you need to do. End result it is dished, and floor standing cupboard doors and filing cabinet drawers slide open on their own  :bugeye:

It's somewhere on my 'to do' list  :scratch:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Eugene

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2014, 10:24:36 AM »
Chris,

Whereabouts in the country are you?

Eug

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2014, 03:27:57 PM »
Thanks guys,
Eugene, I'm north manchester. I must admit, when I asked about theDPM, I knew what one was, just not how it would be layed in this situation. I know one was installed when building a dwarf wall on our old porch but that was fitted after a few layers of bricks. So here you are saying to lay it along the floor and then concrete over it, making a new floor. I admit that the rest about blue bricks, rafts and floating concrete is over my head! I'm more than prepared to give anything ago but based on Andrews advice, how much would you expect to pay for this to be done for me?
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2014, 03:30:03 PM »
Just one comment  - I have got extra head room but not much! How much would the floor be raised by?
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Offline awemawson

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2014, 03:56:20 PM »
If your current floor is sound and with no cracks a 3 or 4 inch screed would be ok, and would normally be mixed up (or delivered to site) as a semi dry mix for the screeder to lay. Round here (East Sussex) I would expect to pay 150 per day for a skilled man and 100 for his labourer. A full load of mixed screed (6 cu M ) is about 600 but you should need far less,but would have to pay a 'part load' penalty so it's not quite pro-rata.

If it's not a huge garage your screeder may well choose to mix on site from screeding sand and cement which will be more economic but you don't get quite as consistent a mix (ie it varies slightly from one mixer load to the next due to the human factor)

It's less than a days work, but you'll have to pay for a full day probably.

Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2014, 04:41:06 PM »
So upto 850??????   :doh: :Doh: :palm:
That is well well well more than I can afford!
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Offline awemawson

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2014, 04:46:14 PM »
Absolutely no point in setting up your workshop unless it is dry. These things don't come cheap. Undoubtedly you can do it yourself for much less but it depends on your skill level  :bugeye: :bugeye:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2014, 04:48:45 PM »
I do appreciate what you are saying but having just moved house, I don't have 600!

It seems a hell of a cost when it is just that one corner damp when it rains other than physically under the door.
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Offline dsquire

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2014, 05:13:10 PM »
Absolutely no point in setting up your workshop unless it is dry. These things don't come cheap. Undoubtedly you can do it yourself for much less but it depends on your skill level  :bugeye: :bugeye:

Chris

It all depends on how bad you want a dry workshop. When you were born you didn't know how to do anything but poop and pee. Since then you have come a long way and learned to do many things. Doing a bit of reading, watching a few You-tube video's and asking a few questions you can learn all that you need to know to have yourself a do-it-yourself garage floor party.   :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :D  :)

This is pretty much the same way you learned to build clocks except you didn't have the party.  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

Cheers  :beer:

Don
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2014, 05:40:06 PM »
Guys, I might just take some more pictures tomorrow in day light. I might be hoping for the best, but there is only the one corner of the workshop damp and looking it, I'm wondering if the floor has a DPM and actually the water is running in between the adjoining corner concrete slabs and dripping down onto the floor. I am probably being overly optimistic now I know the price of a new floor!!

I've noticed that there is actually a fillet inside the garage running all the way around rather than outside the building. How could I tell if a DPM is installed ?  I've looked online and others seem to have an issue of a fully damp floor around large areas of the build rather than just a localised area as I have. 

I do have the contact details of the local manufacturer - I need a replacement roof panel so may give them a ring tomorrow and see if they can tell me more. Of course they may not have installed it but they are local firm so I expect they have.
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2014, 05:42:15 PM »
Don, yes, it's very true. I built a porch, did a fully compliant to building regs loft conversion and many other jobs all from youtube, books and forums! None of them have fallen down yet so I'm sure I could attempt a floor. The issue is, like Andrew said, it's so expensive and critical t get it level that it probably is not worth the risk of attempting it!
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Offline awemawson

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Re: Craynerd new workshop project log
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2014, 06:04:10 PM »
There are nowadays fully liquid screeds that come in a tanker, are pumped in.and self level. Never used them. No idea of price. But they flow level if thick enough so theoretically need less skill to lay. Seem to remember seeing them on a Grand Designs program.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex