Author Topic: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods  (Read 15845 times)

Offline steampunkpete

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S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« on: September 13, 2014, 12:14:34 PM »
Here are a two modifications in one post:

As delivered there was more backlash in the cross-slide than I liked, and the first time it started creeping up it took a while before I noticed that the screws holding the lead-screw nut were slack. After tightening them, the slackened again; and again; and again ... Striping it down revealed one of those nasty push & pull arrangements (I hope there is some suitable torment in the afterlife for whoever it was that perpetrated this design).
I bit the bullet, did some careful measuring, and made a shim so that the nut could be screwed hard to the cross-slide. That didn't work so I got the shim thickness right by trial and error.

Another problem is lubrication, because the lead-screw is inaccessible without dismantling stuff. The answer to this was to drill a small hole into the nut where the middle screw of the push-pull arrangement would normally sit. That was opened up to a by-eye depth by the first right-ish looking drill that came to hand to form an oil-reservoir. Now all I need to do is, from time to time, remove a blanking grub screw that keeps the muck out, and apply my trusty oil gun to the hole and give it a couple of squirts to fill the reservoir and replace the blanking screw. The lead-screw now self lubricates as I use it.

The other mod is still in progress. The backlash on my machine originates mostly in the flange in cavity arrangement that transfers the thrust from the leadscrew into the body of the saddle. The flange has to be smaller than the depth of the cavity so that there is clearance for the lead-screw to rotate. That clearance is the end-float.

My solution is to convert the thrust arrangement to a ball-race. That source of nearly everything, ebay, produced ball-races with a 10mm ID, 15mm OD and 4 mm thickness; just the right size and under £4 for 10! The mod is simple: Fix the bearing inner to the shaft (I'm using Loctite as the fit of the inner on the shaft was just shy of a hard push-fit) and fix the bearing outer to the housing. This will entail boring out the housing to 15 mm dia to suit. I'm pondering how to secure the outer; I'm thinking go for press-fit, but resort to Loctite or clamping as a Plan B if I mess up Plan A.

Ball-races are not designed to take large axial loads, but I'm pretty confident that they'll be OK in this application. They have to have internal clearances in order to work of course, but they will be tiny compared to the existing arrangement, and so I should end up with a nice smooth, easy operation with minimal backlash and no need to do any shimming. Picture of the work in progress below.

Watch this space.

Offline Jonny

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2014, 02:19:10 PM »
Make sure you use two sets of thrust bearings, best mod I did on my vice.
It wont get rid of all backlash but more than good enough.

Backlash is just annoying, accurate work can be carried out with it even without a dro.



Offline steampunkpete

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2014, 02:57:54 PM »
Nice to hear from you Jonny.

I'm not planning on using thrust bearings; I think that the axial loads are low enough to be handled directly by a ball-race alone. Relying solely on a ball race means that I don't have to carry out any adjustments to get rid of all but an imperceptibly small residual backlash.

I'm now worried that I'm missing a trick - what are the advantages of using thrust bearings? How did you configure them?

Offline Jonny

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2014, 03:16:15 PM »
Same method cheap pressed ball race acting as thrust bearings.

It will work a lot better if you use two bearings, one where intended at front and one the other side of fixing clamped together.
Axial end float may not be measurable but on a thread will show up dramatically.
On my Myford 22 years ago I added a couple of stacked bellevile (disc) washers, this helped a bit.

I doubt you will cure for long the lead screw is not a lot better than monkey metal, even the so called top notch Chinese machines wear at a dramatic rate. I have two revs of backlash on my mill elevation surprised to see it still works, x adjusted countless times and still over 1 rev backlash.

Offline drmico60

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2014, 03:55:32 PM »
The backlash inherent in a standard ball bearing is only tiny (less than 0.05 mm/ 0.002"). I used a standard skate bearing to modify my cross slide and top slide with good results, see:
http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/cross-slide-extended-travel.html
http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/extended-top-slide-range.html
Mike

Offline steampunkpete

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2014, 04:30:06 PM »
Mike,
I love your website - it has a very professional feel to it . :thumbup:

If my plan doesn't work out (not looking too hot at the moment) I will turn it around and do a variant on yours.

Is your bearing only retained by the grub screw? If so is there any tendency for it to distort the outer track of the bearing?

Thanks for the reply,

Peter

Offline drmico60

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2014, 04:57:30 PM »
Hi Peter,
Yes the bearing is only retained by the grub screw. My design was a variant of the gadget builder version (www.gadgetbuilder.com) who also used a grub screw to  retain the bearing. I have had no problem with the grub screw retainer and it seems to work well.
Mike

Offline John Rudd

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2014, 09:21:41 PM »
Mike,
What is the thread used for the lead screw?
I know it is 1.0mm pitch but what diameter please....
TIA...
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Offline drmico60

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2014, 06:18:11 AM »
Mike,
What is the thread used for the lead screw?
I know it is 1.0mm pitch but what diameter please....
TIA...
Hi John,
The feedscrew for the cross-slide has 10 mm diameter x 1 mm pitch. It has a left hand thread.
Mike

Offline John Rudd

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2014, 09:05:50 AM »
Thanks Mike,
I'll start to get material together to make the necessary mods to my Sieg when we get back home...
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Offline steampunkpete

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2014, 04:09:13 PM »
Thanks Mike,
I'll start to get material together to make the necessary mods to my Sieg when we get back home...

The bearings come in packets of 10, so I've got spares. If you let me know your snail-mail address I can pop a couple of bearings in the post.

Offline John Rudd

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2014, 05:18:54 PM »
Pm sent let me know how much I owe you please......

thnx

JR
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Offline steampunkpete

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2014, 01:01:50 PM »
Nought, lad, nought.

But I can't post until I get home tomorrow.

Offline John Rudd

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2014, 03:00:12 PM »
Ta very much....let me know if I can return the favour sometime please....


i'm now home after a gruelling 5,500 mile journey from Lake Tahoe....tired! nah, just unpacking the goodies I bought from the local Harbor Freight store while I was over there.... :lol:
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Offline steampunkpete

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2014, 06:46:15 AM »
Finished~ish. The only outward sign of the mod is a thicker washer behind the handle.

The action is now smoother than a baby's bum. The backlash has fallen from ~6 thou to 2.5 / 3 thou. Not a bad result. I was hoping for a bit better, but I think that the spare spindle that I got from Amadeal to do the mod with  has a bit more end-float than the original (I like to be able to put things back to original, so mods tend to get done using spares if an irrevocable change is involved). So after Xmas, when I have retired, the plan is to add a 3/4 inch spacer to pull the cross-slide back, and fit a longer lead-screw, and at this point consider / try using a plastic leadscrew.

Has anybody got any experience with the plastic lead-screw nuts? These have a built-in pinch arrangement to eliminate backlash. Are they suitable for small lathes?

If you look closely at the picture below, you can see another mod; the upgrade brass gibs have been fitted to the cross and compound slides. They almost completely fill the space and are far superior to the gibs that come with the lathe.

Offline John Rudd

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2014, 06:49:23 AM »
Nicely done... :clap:

As to he plastic nuts, yes I've heard of folk using Acetal, cut the thread with a hot tap to make the thread more 'durable'....Cant remember where I saw this but it'll turn up with Google...
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Offline drmico60

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2014, 08:05:08 AM »
If you are thinking about plastic feedscrew nuts have a look at this post:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/43645-Making-Acetal-leadscrew-nuts-the-easy-way?highlight=acetal
This seems to be a very easy method of making one.
For the 7 x lathes I think the big problem with a plastic feedscrew nut on the cross-slide is how to securely attach the nut to the cross slide. There is not much material nut material to screw into and not much scope to provide more material.
Mike

Offline steampunkpete

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2014, 09:08:16 AM »
That's a brilliant idea, it would never have occurred to me to do it that way. I don't see any problem with fixing, one could start with a block of material, bore the hole for the thread off-centre, then split the block. The thread would be formed by heating whilst the block was clamped around the lead-screw. Finally, a couple of mounting holes could be drilled through the block perpendicular to the thread created, but off-set into the other half of the block. Drill two holes in the cross-slide off-set by the same amount and voila!

There are other possibilities for the geometry, the point being that the end result doesn't have to be cylindrical. Hmm, I might well add trying this method to my increasingly long to-do list.

There are Delrin lead-screw nuts on ebay, but none in left-hand thread apparently.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MINIATURE-8-MM-DELRIN-NUT-FOR-CNC-M8-LEAD-SCREW-2-pieces-/151245436723?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2336ee3733

Offline drmico60

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2014, 09:22:32 AM »
I do not understand what you are proposing for mounting the nut. If and when you make and mount a delrin/acetal nut then please post so photos.
Mike

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2014, 09:55:11 AM »
If you are thinking about plastic feedscrew nuts have a look at this post:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/43645-Making-Acetal-leadscrew-nuts-the-easy-way?highlight=acetal
This seems to be a very easy method of making one.
For the 7 x lathes I think the big problem with a plastic feedscrew nut on the cross-slide is how to securely attach the nut to the cross slide. There is not much material nut material to screw into and not much scope to provide more material.
Mike

If it's made that way, the original nut (or a copy) could be bored out and the round acetal nut pushed/ glued into the hole.

Offline steampunkpete

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2014, 10:44:55 AM »
I do not understand what you are proposing for mounting the nut. If and when you make and mount a delrin/acetal nut then please post so photos.
Mike

Well, for example, if you look at the Delrin nuts on the ebay link you will see that they are not cylindrical, they are in the form of a block. There are two holes drilled in the block for mounting. As those two holes are not on the centre-line of the thread, they can drilled thru'. Two corresponding holes must be drilled in the cross-slide body for fixing the nut to the body.
So start by drilling the hole in the block, split the block, then clamp the two halves together and form the thread. Same method but start with a block rather than a round bar.
That block shape means that the problem of not much material to screw into has been overcome.
If and when, I will post.
Regards
Pete

Offline drmico60

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2014, 12:11:36 PM »
This may be just possible. The existing brass nut is 16 mm square and the feedscrew is 10 mm  major diameter. This means that there is only 3 mm of material either side of the feedscrew hole. I do not remember how wide the slot in the carriage is but  I think it is about 20 mm so it  may be possible to gain an extra mm or two on the width of the nut to allow for screw holes but it is going to be a squeeze to fit it all in.
Mike

Offline steampunkpete

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Re: S3 Mini Lathe - Cross Slide Screw Mods
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2014, 01:57:42 PM »
A quick measure up suggested a width of a bit over 30mm being available. Next time I go out to the garage I'll check it again. Measure twice, cut once!
Thanks for the heads-up.
Pete  :thumbup: