Fight against annoying power cuts!

[PekkaNF]

Looks like I can't have the cake and eat it too!

Originally I bought the big filter to fit it where the small fuel tank is located now. See first picture. I was thinkking to use the clamps and rubber grommets to hold aluminium or steel plate that would allow me to mount the filter unit for a good access.

I was trying to find a gravity feed tank which I could mount traditionally and dispense with prinming pumps and all that. It just looks that to find 10-20 litre tank of proper size and half decent price is hard. It should be just a tad shorter than 20l traditional Jerry can.

I'm that desperate that I'm even looking the old stanless kichen sink as possible base material for the fuel tank. I prefer one mounted tank over puzzle.

Plan B is to put a shelf on top of the generator and bungee hooks for a boat spare tank, fit a bulb pump between the fuel line and filter. Tank itself needs a minimum of modifivations and almost fits inside of the generator frame. See second picture.

Plan C is to find a smaller filter (possibly with a priming pump) and retain the old tank, rout the line trough new filter and put a aux fuel line disconnect to filter input side. Problem is that the only free place for this large filter comes within 2" of the generator cooling exit.

Third picture illustrates difference of the diesel oil filer, heating oil filter and inline filter size.

Pekka

[vtsteam]

I use a hardware store heating oil filter in our kerosene (paraffin) heater line, and that is gravity fed.  Seems like you could find an element that filters to the proper micron size for any application. Actually, a look at the one in the tank should tell you if it's a folded paper or felt filter. doubt it's anything special.

[PekkaNF]

I took a day off from this problem/chanlenge and started to think that here opposite of good might be prefect.

I'm thinkking of rigging a fuel tank gravity feed and keep everything simple - if it ever is.

I'm thinking of using a normal spare tank and keeping it almost empty when in storage. When put to proper use: bleeding all bad fuel out, fueling it, fitting tank, and it should start with first pull.

I have few options, each has it't own set of compromise.

1) Tank venting:
* breather filter???
* Valve to reduce condensation, fuel aging, and leakage when generator is tranported or moved about.

2) Fuel outlet:
* On top of tank. Won't leak when in store or in use, but needs a fuel tube inside the tank and priming pump.
* Bottom of the fuel tank more simple on every account, might leak if used improperly, although I have no intention.

I'm pretty confident I'll get it working in any case.

Interesting thing is that I was trying to buy today diesel proof fuel tubing and the shop had only Gates rubber hose, one type inside the tank and the other outside the tank.

I walked trough all the selves and on chainsaws they had vinyt tubing:
https://www.oregonpartsstore.com/07-258.html

I have allways avoided using vinyl on any fuel, but apparentyly there is a type that will take least gasoline. But will this particular one (Oregon 07-258) behave well with diesel? Will it work only outside of the tank or can it be immersed?

Pekka

[vtsteam]

Odd but "in the old days" it seemed most chainsaws used clear vinyl tubing from the carb forward. And since it was gas/oil mix, I imagine diesel wouldn't be any different. It did get stiff after several years and needed to be replaced if you removed it, but it was easy to do and cost less then 50 cents  a foot.

Then fancy saws like my Stihl chainsaw and Honda brush cutter started to use special black colored synthetic rubber in the design. And it was no longer a straight length of tube, but a moulded shape. Cost about 50 times as much, required a special order to replace (if not "legacied") and didn't last more than a couple years because it broke down with the new ethanol/gasoline mixes. Split, leaked fuel on you, or sucked air into the carb, leaning, overheating and scoring the cylinder on my Stihl saw.

I don't know what is used these days on fancy equipment, but my el cheapo Poulan chainsaw still uses clear vinyl fuel line tubing for gas and oil mix, which has shown no signs of deterioration after 3 years of hard use. And that isn't even the "special" Oregon tinted and stamped fuel tubing (which I believe might be silicone based) -- just the plain old cler vinyl stuff from years ago.

So I dunno. Don't know why the change, and why the old stuff still seems to work. We also used to use clear vinyl fuel line tubing on our model airplane engines, running methanol, nitromethane and castor oil blends. Worked fine. I don't really understand what's wrong with clear vinyl now.

[PekkaNF]

I know. Good old times you bought any service station or any even remotely related shop clear fuel tube and it did the trick.

On RC engines I think it was silicon tube for methanol and this "clear" PVC tube for gasoline. You were fine as long as you didn't mix. Everybody knew it. Then THEY mixed the fuel.

And there is incredible different amoun of different materials floating around and nobody knows what they are selling or using. Try google Tygon, that is often recommended. Which one?

I have a tight spot and I'm wondereing if I could use this tube, because it has thinner wall and I just might be able to squese it in there.

Pekka

[vtsteam]

On RC engines I think it was silicon tube for methanol and this "clear" PVC tube for gasoline. You were fine as long as you didn't mix. ..

Actually I'm talking control line days (for me) in the early 60's and there was no silicone tubing -- it was all clear vinyl fuel line, distributed by Perfect (brand name). It was also found inside Thimble Drome/Cox half-A engines in the built in radial mount fuel tank, and also what we used on the fuel pump from the can, or to connect an external tank to an engine. And that was all methanol/castor oil mix. The vinyl handled it - no problem. It was very helpful, too because you could see whether there was air in the lines, etc.

Silicone fuel tubing is recent R/C.

[PekkaNF]

Very likely, I was born middle 60's makes me a spring chiken to lot of you guys, but tat the work am't the grumpy old troll.

Anyway, I was googling fuel pick up lines for inspiration and found quite a few ones made from nylon. The nylon type was not mentioned, but I have PA 12 pneumatic nylon tubing, it is pretty easy to find.

I also have some pneumatic connectors, but they don't work well with uder pressure, therefore I would not use the standard fitings.

Have to remove some parts and see where all that junk would fit best.

I'm thinkking of giving a try this Oregon 07-258 (looks like it could be Tygon® F-4040-A Fuel and Lubricant Tubing)
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23487

Alhough it's max. temp is very much less than I would hope. But there is tight spot and I have to see if this would fit there, if it does not then nothing will. Original is straight ruber line, more of stump than anything else.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

OK, some progress

VT and some others might be interested on this concept of fuel line unions to fuel tank:
* Use on truck/tractor tubeless tire valve assembly

See first picture, standard item has pretty much correct stem to popular 1/4" tubing, the thread part on the tip is about 7,6 mm, a tad small for standard 8 mm tubing.

Good news is that they are readily available, pretty cheap (I walkked in first tire shop and they sold two 3€ apiece) and when the air valve is taken out it is all smooth bore. They had straigh stems, 90 degree, short ones, long ones, but I liked this small angle model.

The interesting thing is that I just might be able to have the cake and eat it too, very soft fuel line might allow me to fit original tank and a quick fuel disconnect. Threre is only about 50 mm of linear distance of two fuel lines to snuggle. Rubber hose would not make that tight bend, but this Oregon fuel line just might. Only thing is that I need a bigger one than this 1/4" I have.

See  pictures two/three.

Another complication is that I can't fit very well the filter assembly I have, it is just few centimetres too tall to maintain and use it properly. Darn. I don't want to tilt it, nor mount it to protrude out of the pipe frame at all and thre should be enough space around it when maintained in dark, rain, blizard or -30C and windy.

On the other hand I want it as big as possible in filter area, because this has no transfer pump.

I'll try to fit the original tank and injection pump with new diverted fuel lines and see if it looks doable, if it does, then I'll hook them up to an external filter that has aux fuel line disconnect. That would give me max. flexibility and if I get the filter height right, there should be no problem when bleeding it.

It all would be a whole lot easier if I had fuel rubber line T with short end of 50 mm stump, I have seen them on car cooling systems, but never on fuel lines.

Plan B is to take the original tank out and make a good use of the space where that orginal tank is. For this option an fixed tank would be great. I googled last night ready made tanks and there seems to be many possible  ones in USA, but not that many in Europe.

Pekka

[Scuba1]

As far as filters go for diesel fuel. There is none better then the Racor cartridge filters. They have a clear bit at the bottom of the water separator, so you can see what is going on and you can get the insert cartridges from 4 to 10 microns. I have used them and use them on all my diesel engines. In a gravity fed system, you will want to install a ball type valve / tap, so you can shut the fuel flow when changing the insert cartridge. You can change them in under a minute with no tools. I have a dozen spares on board at all times.

At Amazone you can get an filter that is identical to the Racor 500 FG at half the price of the original. Still use the original Racor insert filters with it though. They run at around 95 $us for a dozen.

ATB

Michael

[PekkaNF]

Few experiments left...I have trouble locating reliable source/make of fuel line. I would like much PTFE lined line, but I don't need much pressure head and I would like to use hose spring clamps instead of whole lot bulkier AN fittings.

Haven't found yet UK/EU source of teflon lined non metallic braided line.

Is there a commonly available 5-8 mm ID PTFE lined fuel hose that can be used with normal fuel spring clamps?

Thanks,
Pekka

[PekkaNF]

I ordered some stuff from UK:
http://www.ssldieselparts.co.uk/

I bolted on some hoses and parts to find out if all would fit right places and easy to access for maintenance.

No hose clamps/clips yet. To keep the original tank necessitates fairly thin walled hoses. The hose from the injection pump is normal Gates NBR hose and from the tank is Tycon type PVC hose. That particular hose is 1/4" OD, but I really would need 5/16" (8 mm) ID type. But it bends pretty well. I could not use two standard NBR hoses, they simply would not fit past to each others.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

I haven't to parts yet, looks they are not sent.

Meantime, I have been putting some fuel hose samples on HD-PE jars for immersion test. First set I'm letting them to stew on standard mineral diesel (no bio diesel components). After exactly 25 hours in about 30C looks like Gates 3225 NBR/PVC and Oregon 07-258 have no dimensional or apparent changes. However ordinary "clear" PCV and cheap "FUEL RESISTANT -15/45- made in italy" fuel lines have some noticeable dimensional changes and they feel noticeably harder than non-marinated samples.

I have cut some samples more and I'm thinking fastening them on an alternator under car hood to check if outer layer will deteriorate on ozone and/or heat.

Then I need to hung some samples out to check effect of UV, but it's pretty useless now - we got very little of sun light.

Any other ideas ot pointers for immersion time/temp. values?

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

After 6 days in standard mineral diesel oil small, but clear changes are evident.

Cheap/no brand PVC and "rubber" fuel lines are clearly harder to touch, but dimenssional changes are smaller than I anticipated.

Both brand lines Gates NBR and Oregon PVC are unchanged as far as I can tell.

My brother found one piece of interesting (fuel line) hose from his inventory. He said that he got it 10 years ago for power steering and automatic transmission. They sais that the hose has teflon lining and automotive grade exterior.

Unfortunately this hose has no manufacurer markking, only this marking:
ID 3/8 WP 300 PSI      10230705

ID 3/8" is pretty evident, but the pressure rating is funny, about 20 bar, it would hint standard compressed air hose, but are there any teflon lined compressed air hose?

Or maybe he just gave me wrong hose?

Pekka

[Will_D]

When I was rebuilding car brake systems with CuNiFer lines the "goto" flexible hose supplier was Goodridge:

http://goodridge.brakes-hoses-fittings.co.uk/

Teflon/stainlkess/anodised fittings plus you can just buy the bits and make your own as they don't need a massive hydraulic crimper like wor hydraulis fittings need!

HTH: Will

[Manxmodder]

Hi Pekka, I found this info on Gates fluoroelastomer lined fuel hoses. There should be something in their range that will suit your needs.....OZ.
 Link: http://www.gates.com/oreilly/tech_tips/PermeationResistantFuelLineHose.pdf
 

[PekkaNF]

Jep, Gates 27340 might do the trick. I have to check on that.

Pretty expensive here:
http://www.uspartsperformance.fi/gates-27314-kumiletku-32036

Price is really close to AeroFlow 200 PTFE lined fuel lines, but they need AN connectors and that is not doable on the engine end.

Found another alternative:
http://www.uspartsperformance.fi/gates-27314-kumiletku

Thanks,
Pekka