Author Topic: Alum battery conversion. (Read 21757 times)

DavidA · « **on:** February 04, 2015, 11:47:24 AM »

HI,

I don't know if this has been done here before. But here is what I intend to do.

I was watching a series if videos on the recovery of lead acid car batteries.

Here is the link.. definitely interesting.

So, I have a number of old batteries and decided to give it a go.

Today I dug out a battery that has 9.9 volt across the terminals. It was first charged in 2000. So it is 14 year old.
I picked this one as even a flat battery should have 9 volt if it isn't damaged.

It is a MotorCraft Superstart EMF 560 030 060 W. 12 Volt 590 Amp 60 Ah.

The start conditions of this experiment are.

Cells checked for electrolyte. Found to be all at top of plates. Added a bit of distilled water to each to ensure plates covered.
Terminals in reasonable condition, non of the hard crusty layer often found on the + terminal. Cleaned them up.

Connected a small charger (max 6 Amp) with a 5 Amp moving coil meter in circuit.

Switched on.

Initial charge rate 0.1 Amp. 11.7 Volt across the terminals.

Now , this voltage is too low. Should be around 14 Volt at first. So the charger is suspect.

Tomorrow I will buy another small charger. I have a big charger, but don't want to use it for this test.

I'll keep going out to check on progress this evening.

When the battery has been charging for 24 hours (4 PM tomorrow) I'll record the numbers then it is a matter of awaiting the Alum before proceeding.

Dave.

awemawson · « **Reply #1 on:** February 04, 2015, 12:57:02 PM »

I can see that draining the old acid, and flushing with baking soda may well knock the hard suphates off the active lead plates - it's those hard suphates that give the battery a high internal resistance. Also debris falling off the plates accumulates in the bottom of the battery, shorting out the positive and negative plates and self discharging the battery. Again flushing out will get rid of the debris.

But what the chemistry of filling it with alum solution is I have no clue. As I understand alum is hydrated potassium aluminium sulphate. I'd be interested to see what charging and discharging characteristics have been created.

I have a feeling that flushing with bi-carb followed by water, and then refilling with the correct strength of sulphuric acid would be more effective.

Note that that was a deep discharge 'leisure battery' he was using, that would have extra space below the plates.

DavidA · « **Reply #2 on:** February 04, 2015, 01:54:21 PM »

Yeah, The usual procedure is to drain out all the acid then refill with 1.250 SG acid. Recharge, check SG and repeat until it holds 1.250 SG

I agree that there will be room beneath the plates for dislodged sulphate.

But it is just a bit of fun, so it doesn't really matter if it fails.

Mind, I will be chuffed if it does work.

How come the Americans are so much more into this stuff than we are ?

Dave.

awemawson · « **Reply #3 on:** February 04, 2015, 02:03:48 PM »

You used to be able to buy 'battery reviver' tablets in the UK - the pages of Exchange & Mart were full of them back in the 1980's . I suspect whatever improvement they made if any was by physical desulphation.

Now in my youth (an awful long time ago

) I used to revive ex WW2 NiFe cells quite successfully by flushing and re-filling with potassium hydroxide solution.

DavidA · « **Reply #4 on:** February 04, 2015, 03:19:29 PM »

I also have used those tablets. Can't remember if they worked or not.

The web is replete with a variety of de suphating methods. Pulsating high voltage DC seems to be a favorite.

Just been out to check my battery. Same Volts and Amps as before.

The worst thing you can do to any rechargeable battery is to allow it to it unused and not charged.

Dave.

DavidA · « **Reply #5 on:** February 06, 2015, 06:46:52 AM »

Went out to check on the progress of the battery charge.

Still no change.

'Bit odd' I thought, 'there should be something'. Then it dawned upon me.

You see, The battery charger was connected to the mains via an extension lead. And this lead was on the same circuit that supplied the light closest to the place I was working.

So each time I had left the shed and switched off the light, I also switched off the charger.

Stupid person.

Ah well, back to step one. But as the alum hasn't arrived yet, no real lose.

I only realised the error this morning because I didn't need to turn on the light, and noticed the charger wasn't running.

Dave

mcostello · « **Reply #6 on:** February 06, 2015, 09:25:39 AM »

We all do this kind of stuff, You are in good company. Most just don't tell.

vtsteam · « **Reply #7 on:** February 06, 2015, 09:44:19 AM »

That was funny!

So recognizable and familiar.

Hey, at lest you figured it out -- some might have increased the charge rate! .....ahem....

awemawson · « **Reply #8 on:** February 06, 2015, 09:52:05 AM »

.....so the light dawned ....... ok I'll get my coat

lordedmond · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2015, 10:36:08 AM »

David

I could quote from Mr Mainwaring from dads army to Pike but it would be unkind

At least you were not playing with the 230v wireing when the boss turned on the light

Stuart

DavidA · « **Reply #10 on:** February 10, 2015, 01:52:21 PM »

Well, the alum arrived so it's time to make a start.

Now, as my transatlantic colleagues seem fixated of quaint measures like Bushels, cords, and particularly fluid ounces I needed to do a bit of conversion.

First, in the video he uses 8 Fluid Once to 1 gallon of water. Now, 1 US gallon = 3.785 Litre.
A session with my wife's kitchen ware shows 8 fluid ounce of Alum to be close to 250 Gram.

My battery holds just under 2 Litre of electrolyte.

So, I only need 130 Gram (52 %) of Alum in 2 Litre of water to do the job. Anyone who sees a flaw in this logic please feel free to jump in; preferably tonight.

My baking soda (Sodium Bicarbonate) came from Aldi in 200 Gram tubs.

I drained of the acid into a container for future experimentation, mixed up a tub of bicarb' in a two litre milk container
and filled up the battery; much bubbling ensued.
When the bubbling had died down I drained it all out and repeated the operation. Still bubbling, but not as vigorously.
This time when the bubbling stopped I placed a bit of electrolyte from the battery into a beaker and added a few drops of universal indicator. Bright red. So, still acid.

I have left the bicarb' solution in the battery for the night. Will check again tomorrow.
I also checked the Alum to be sure that it is also acid.

Oh yes, 9.8 volts across the battery with the bicarb' solution in it.

More follows.

Dave.

DavidA · « **Reply #11 on:** February 12, 2015, 07:55:24 AM »

Update,

Last night I drained off the bicarb'. rinsed it out with fresh water and filled up with the Alum solution.

The battery voltage (no load) was 9.8 Volt.

Connected up the charger and found 0.1 Amp flowing. Same as before.

Three hours later it had increased to 0,4 Amp. Not much, but better than before where it had refused to go past 0.1 Amp.

Today at 12:30 the current was at 0.5 Amp. With the charger disconnected there was 12.7 Volt across the terminals.

So it looks as if something is happening.

The plan is to leave it a couple more hours, then use my big charger to increase the current to around 5 Amp (if possible).

The a series of discharge/recharge cycles.

What fun we have.

Dave

awemawson · « **Reply #12 on:** February 12, 2015, 08:09:47 AM »

I'm intrigued what the alum / lead paste chemistry is - particularly having seen that video where a 'recovered' battery started a largish and very cold engine.

I once successfully revived a set of traction batteries on a 'works truck' (small milk float) that had stood uncharged for years. I bought one of the high voltage pulse revivers and did each 12v battery in turn. From discharge tests it got back to well over 90% of it's original capacity, and while I still used it regularly it held charge well. It was a bit tired when I sold it as again it had sat unused for a year. Only through the reviver away yesterday - I'd blown it up by reverse connections and opening it up it had some custom components that weren't available.

DavidA · « **Reply #13 on:** February 12, 2015, 08:23:45 AM »

Andrew,

Yes, this puzzled me also. In fact it sees to surprise the guy who made the videos.

I'll have to ask the chemists at my old works and see what they have to say on it.

I can understand the bicarb' helping to desulphate the cells, which would be beneficial. but can't see why you don't just refill with Sulfuric acid at the correct SG (1.250) afterwards.

I have another battery in a similar state. Maybe I'll do the same first stage on that one but refill with Sulfuric acid instead of Aluminum sulphate.

All interesting stuff.

Did you watch the whole series, four parts?

I was particularly impressed by the way the battery seems to hold it's charge and still start the truck over a three month period. And you can tell by the weather changes that he isn't trying to fool anyone.

Dave.

vtsteam · « **Reply #14 on:** February 12, 2015, 08:38:40 AM »

David, I did a lot of youtube viewing re. the alum electolyte after you started the thread. The person who seems to have done the most experimentation and has the most interesting and informative videos with this and many other unconventional cells is Frank Bedini (Energenx):

http://www.youtube.com/user/Energenx/videos

Lots of video viewing interest there.

He's very firm on using distilled water. and also I believe doesn't use baking soda to neutralize, but just distilled water rinses. He does "form" plates through a time and current regimen on new cells. He mentions 10% alum solution in one video, but in another (initerview) video states one cup/gallon as the electrolyte proportion which is 6.25% by volume (US measure)

Also I've seen a few other videos by others, but find them kind of frustrating, as they never seem to have the patience to do a steady 1C discharge and calculate the capacity (vs. the mfr lead/acid capacity) of the lead/alum battery. They always jump around for the video and increase the discharge rate after 15 minutes -- I guess they get bored. One guy who uses "ammonium alum" from a deodorant (????) does use a steady 150 ma discharge for a couple cycles, on new cells (but without forming) and I make out a severely reduced capacity (maybe a third?) He also seems to have created a supersaturated electrolyte -- crystals of alum form in his mixing vessel, and presumably in his cells....

Anyway, all very interesting, and looking forward to your results!

vtsteam · « **Reply #15 on:** February 12, 2015, 08:45:14 AM »

ps. Michael Hackelman in his early 70's book Wind and WndSpinners talks about salvaging junkyard batteries by simply rinsing them out with distilled water, and refilling with fresh electroylyte, and putting through monitored charge cycles. This presumably removes the sulfation at the bottom of the batt, etc.

DavidA · « **Reply #16 on:** February 12, 2015, 11:20:48 AM »

As mentioned above, I changed the battery chargers and connected up the big variable rate machine.

I found that 17 Volt will drive 1.5 Amp through the battery. That will do for the next 24 hours.
Then I will do some kind of discharge test.

VT, The mix you mention, 1 cup to 1 US gallon, is the one I am using. Corrected to give me 2 Litre of electrolyte. This solution dissolves the Alum completely.
I do recall the video where the experimenter finishes up with a supersaturated solution of baking soda. I did think that the measuring was a bit haphazard. Also, I don't recall him rinsing out the battery either before or after the addition of the soda. He appears to be just spooning it into the cells. I must rewatch the video.

I'll have to try get a copy of that Heckelman Book. Just rinsing with distilled water doesn't seem to be capable of removing the sulphate. But if he says it does it is worth a try; I have plenty of old batteries.

Dave.

vtsteam · « **Reply #17 on:** February 12, 2015, 12:19:44 PM »

Hi Dave -- the supersaturated solution was "ammonium alum" from a deodorant and the guy was using a brand new dry motorcycle battery, so he didn't rinse at all. He did have a discharge tester connected to his laptop with graphing software, but I don't get the point of all the "technical" caution he put into it when he used such slapdash chemistry.

I can't remember if Michael Hackelman actually stated that rinsing and emptying several times with distilled water removed sulphation -- my guess there. He might have, I just don't remember. I'm guessing that book is long out of print. I think I still have it -- will have to look. But anyway, he did re-use junkyard batteries after giving them the clean-out treatment. He also said that some were damaged beyond rejuvenation, but most were not.

russ57 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 13, 2015, 05:56:13 AM »

I've not had a chance to watch the videos, but I have used successfully several times, 'battery boosta' which is/was a selenium based compound, about 20ml per cell if I recall.
I recall someone explaining to me that batteries can fail when loose sulphation (?) falls to the bottom and shorts out the plates. I would expect distilled water flushes would shift this, but I doubt it would actually clean the plates. The other vague recollection I have is that the plates can physically collapse and short - I suspect washing won't help then. 😊
-Russell

DavidA · « **Reply #19 on:** February 14, 2015, 04:07:55 PM »

Progress so far.

Saturday 14 Feb' 15.

Went in to check the progress of the charge and found the Amp meter at Full scale. 5 Amp +. With 16 Volts across it.

Disconnected the charger. Let the battery stand for half an hour and measured the no load voltage.

13.6 Volt.

Next, a discharge test.

I connected a 12 Volt 50 Watt light bulb in series with the Amp meter. From the nominal figures I expected the Bulb to draw 50/12 = 4.166 Amp.

1315 Hrs now at 10.8 Volt.

Start of test.

13:15 Hrs 9 Volt 4. Amp needle flickering.

13: 20 Hrs 9.2 Volt 4 Amp needle flickering.

13:30 Hrs 11.8 Volt 4.4 Amp needle steady.

13:46 Hrs 11.7 Volt 4.4 Amp ------ " -------

14:00 Hrs 11.7 Volt 4.3 Amp ------ " -------

14:15 HRS 11.8 Volt 4.25 Amp ------ " -------

14:48 Hrs 11.5 Volt 4.25 Amp ------ " ------

15:00 Hrs 11.3 Volt 4.18 Amp ------ " ------

15:15 Hrs 9.7 Volt 3.6 Amp ------ " ------

Disconnected load.

So, this battery that wouldn't take any charge before treatment ran this bulb for nearly two hours.

Now I'll carry on with these charge / discharge cycles and see how it progresses.

Note the sudden change from 9.2 Volt to 11.8 Volt across the battery when it had been supplying a current to the bulb for a while. It then stays around this voltage most of the way through the test.

Dave.

awemawson · « **Reply #20 on:** February 14, 2015, 04:19:22 PM »

That sudden jump sounds like a shorted cell clearing it's short hence adding circa 2 volts to the total. From your figures I suspect another cell is also shorted.

DavidA · « **Reply #21 on:** February 14, 2015, 04:29:40 PM »

Andrew,

I think you may be right.

The same kind of thing happened when I returned the battery to the charger for it's next cycle.

It started at about 5 amp, then dropped suddenly after a couple of minutes to around 1 amp. It was holding there last time I looked.

I'll persevere with it and see what happens. I have another battery ready to try out .

Dave,

vtsteam · « **Reply #22 on:** February 14, 2015, 04:35:08 PM »

Agree with the first thought, Andrew. But re. the second, I think these cells have a lower nominal voltage than lead acid ~ 1.7V/cell, vs 2V/cell for lead acid, from what I've noted on various peoples recorded trials.

David -- you've got about 9 amp hours capacity recorded so far. A lot better than NO amp hours (as before), but I'm curious to see what the total capacity eventually works out to be.

Great work, and thanks very much for publishing your actual data!

awemawson · « **Reply #23 on:** February 26, 2015, 11:44:36 AM »

Dave,

How goes the battery rejuvenating - not heard from you in a while

DavidA · « **Reply #24 on:** February 27, 2015, 11:27:47 AM »

Andrew,

It's still ongoing. But the results don't look too promising.
The battery that I provided data for above has just been recharged for the second time. as I only have one 5 Amp meter and it is tied up with charging another battery I will have to wait for couple of days before I can do a discharge test.

I think the process will come down to 'does the battery have a damaged cell ?'. If so then unless one wants to start replacing cells (maybe from an old 'sacrificial' battery that has a couple of good cells left in it, the best route to take will be the one that leads you to the scrap yard to weigh in the lead.

The electrolyte from the latest battery to be tried had a SG of 1.01. Almost pure water. No reaction at all to the bicarb.

I'll update you when I have the new data.

Dave.

DavidA · « **Reply #25 on:** February 28, 2015, 02:45:35 PM »

Here are the results of today's discharge test. Load was the same 12 Volt 50 Watt lamp as before.

Note.

The battery had been charged for around 24 hours after the last test, then left standing for 5 days. The voltage across the battery prior to the test was 10.6.

12:30 7.3 Volt 3.3 Amp

12:45 11.2 4.2

13:02 11.6 4.3

13:16 11.7 4.3

13:30 11.7 4.25

13:45 11.5 4.25

14:00 11.8 4.2

15:00 11.4 4.2

15:20 8.4 3.5

15.30 11.7 4.2

15:45 11.3 4.15

16:00 8.7 4.15

16:30 11.3 4.1

16:45 11.3 4.1

17:00 11.3 4.1

17:15 11.2 4.15

17:30 11.1 4.1

17:45 11.3 4.1

18:00 11.2 4.1

18:15 10.8 4.1

18:30 10.7 4.1

Duration of test 6 hour.

This battery appears to be improving.
Notice how the measured voltage is higher when under load than it is when it was standing with no load connected.
There are a couple of occasions when the voltage drops, but it recovers .
At the time the test was discontinued it was still providing 4.1 Amp although the voltage was beginning to drop off.

The next test is to use two lamps to double the current.

Dave.

vtsteam · « **Reply #26 on:** February 28, 2015, 03:24:00 PM »

So that's something like 26 amp hours (so far), and 1.9 V per cell (more or less). Which is pretty good for a dead battery!

I don't know how the capacity holds up against a similar size lead acid battery in good condition. I do have some bigger deep cycle marine batteries, about 50% larger that have 100 amp hour capacity. I always assumed a regular car battery was up around 60, but I don't know for sure.

The rise from a lower resting voltage seems typical for these alum batts, and the ability to hold a charge for a longer period without self discharge. Also, somewhat lower cell voltage.

DavidA · « **Reply #27 on:** February 28, 2015, 03:59:03 PM »

VT,

...I don't know how the capacity holds up against a similar size lead acid battery in good condition...

I was wondering along the same lines.

I have a good battery off one of my cars that I will charge up and run a test (or two)on.

Next step with the alum battery is to investigate the Specific Gravity aspect. Does it behave the same as when using Sulfuric acid ?. Much measuring to be done.

But I really do need to automate the measuring process. Taking readings every quarter of an hour is ok if I'm in the shed, but a bit of a chore if I have to make special trips.

I do have the data gathering and logging equipment, just need to set it up.

Dave.

awemawson · « **Reply #28 on:** February 28, 2015, 06:30:45 PM »

No problem, get the wife to take the readings when she's between ironing session

DavidA · « **Reply #29 on:** May 20, 2015, 03:54:25 PM »

Just need you guys to humour me for a bit.

During my trawl through the various desulphating offerings I found the following.

Some of you may have seen it.

But regardless, I would like you to have a quick look at it, the first minute is enough, and see if you spot some thing odd.

Dave.

Manxmodder · « **Reply #30 on:** May 20, 2015, 05:13:12 PM »

David, opening that link has just crashed my computer at about the 1 minute mark. I sincerely hope you didn't know that was what would happen......OZ.

tom osselton · « **Reply #31 on:** May 20, 2015, 06:27:36 PM »

Worked fine for me.

Will_D · « **Reply #32 on:** May 20, 2015, 06:29:23 PM »

No problem for me! At 1 min in couldn't see owt wrong or odd!

Sea.dog · « **Reply #33 on:** May 20, 2015, 06:31:51 PM »

The only thing obvious to me was that he was talking Ohms when clearly the meter was showing milli-Ohms.

Graham

Manxmodder · « **Reply #34 on:** May 20, 2015, 07:12:52 PM »

Yes,I did notice the Milli ohms reading.

vtsteam · « **Reply #35 on:** May 20, 2015, 09:46:33 PM »

I watched the whole series of 5 videos. Apparently, I can't stop watching a bunch of predictable failures unfolding at a snail's pace.

DavidA · « **Reply #36 on:** May 21, 2015, 06:17:19 AM »

Oz,

No, I didn't find any problem with the link. I have watched it a couple of times without incident.

And congratulations to you others. It was the way that he kept referring to Ohms when the meter was showing milliOhms that had me puzzled.

Makes you wonder a bit about the rest of the 'advice'.

Thanks for partaking in this little experiment.

Dave.

vtsteam · « **Reply #37 on:** May 21, 2015, 10:16:25 AM »

One other point, among many about this series of videos, is that as he explains it, the Harbor freight meter he is using is measuring internal resistance of the battery in order to calculate "cold cranking amps", rather than putting the battery under starting load and measuring actual cranking amperage.

That may work okay if the electrolyte is standard sulfuric acid, the concentration is correct, the cells are filled, and the terminals have good contact, so the resistance is reasonably accurate.

But as soon as you change the electrolyte, its resistance changes. You have just changed the resistance of the solution, not necessarily "restored" a battery or somehow repaired a bad cell.

And his advice to spoon in wetted epsom salts (he actually spoons in dry salts at one point) with no attempt to measure ( a few cells he arbitrarily adds more to half way through his tests) is kind of like a kid making a mud pie, and pretending to be scientific about it.

Unlike other youtube epsom salt/lead acid battery conversion videos, this guy does not even empty out the old electrolyte first, or rinse with distilled water, he just spoons in odd amounts of epsom salts into old sulfuric acid electrolyte as the mood takes him.

Further on in the series this becomes an advertisement for a charger he builds (and apparently sells) with an open frame out of wood and sheetrock screws, a rectifier, a monster filter capacitor, and a wall timer, and a $2 multimeter from Harbor Freight with a bad battery (as he explains) giving false readings. His "Capacitative' charger has exposed terminals throughout, a ball of wiring, and exposed alligator clamps for the battery, which he points and will charge with an output of 130V.

After wading through the series, which begins with recommendations that people do what he does, his experiments produce poor results. Apparently, it was still worth putting up on youtube, so others could do the same thing.

News:

Author Topic: Alum battery conversion. (Read 21757 times)

lordedmond