Author Topic: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b  (Read 26157 times)

Offline rockknocker

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New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« on: February 26, 2015, 01:32:02 AM »
6 months ago, my Brother bought a hobby machine shop from a family trying to liquidate a deceased family member's posessions. A small metal shaper came along with the shop and tickled my fancy, so I bought it off of him.

I believe I've identified it as an Atlas 7b. I have not deciphered the serial number yet, so I don't know its history. Everything turns and slides freely, although the vertical slide has a lot of resistance. I'm not sure if the resistance is in the slide or somewhere else. The electric motor may need to be replaced, we plugged it in to test it out and while it did turn, it emitted a lot of sparks from the rear vent, so we stopped and unplugged immediately.

I plan to (1) get the shaper operational and safe to run, (2) use it long enough to determine if it's something I'd like to keep, and (3a) sell it or (3b) restore it for my own use. Based on my internet research up to now, I'm leaning towards keeping it. While they are widely considered obsolete and inferior to modern mills (a subject of much debate), they are very cheap to operate and are neat to watch! Plus, it doesn't take up much floor space.
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2015, 01:45:08 AM »
I'd like to point out that I'm inexperienced with shapers in any form. If anybody sees something I'm missing or has a tidbit of information I should know, I welcome any comments!

First, some observations about the machine.
* The slides are all in good shape visually, but have been sitting unused for a long time.
* The ram dovetail slides are in similar shape.
* No major rust, the machine was oiled up good before sitting.
* Everything moves like I think it's supposed to if I move the pully by hand.
* A slight grinding noise comes from the motor when turned (never a good sign).
* The longitudinal table feed is in good shape (from the outside), the ratchet assembly works and the housing is not cracked.
* The belt covers appear to be non-stock, but are well made and I don't think they look bad on the machine.
* All other covers are present and accounted for.
* I can't get the table support to move more than 1/4", not sure if I'm loosening it incorrectly or if it's just stuck.
* The drive shaft is lubricated with grease using cup-type dispensers. The grease is partially dried out.
* The paint is not original and is flaking in several places. A fingernail can scrape it off in some places.
* The original table is in good shape.
* The wiring is in bad shape, with insulation flaking off in several places to expose bare copper.

I'll note further observations as I go along.

All in all, this isn't too bad for a tool that hasn't been used in a long time.
Anything is possible when you forget what's impossible.

Offline tomrux

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2015, 02:53:33 AM »
repairing an old shaper myself.
One word of warning. be very aware of it when running. possibly one of the most mesmerising machines to watch working.

there is things these machines do easier than a mill and as you say nowhere near the tooling costs.
A sturdy vice and some general lathe tools and you are making chips.

Tom R

Offline vtsteam

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2015, 10:18:39 AM »
I have one yet to be restored (this summer, maybe?).

Interested to see your progress! Here's a good source for info:

http://www.wentztech.com/metalworking/equipment/altas-shaper/
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline nrml

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2015, 01:59:05 PM »

One word of warning. be very aware of it when running. possibly one of the most mesmerising machines to watch working.


Tell me about it! I saw a video of a shaper while randomly browsing the interweb after having had a few too many and I had a 'I've got to get me one of those' moments. So I trundled over to ebay still wearing my beer goggles and I ended up buying an Alba 1A for far more than what it is worth. The only saving grace is that it was in a pretty decent condition mechanically for it's age. I've learnt my lesson about not mixing ebay with alcohol.

There is something really satisfying about using the shaper even if it is just whittling down a piece of metal to size. It has a very steampunk appeal for me. Unless I crash and break it, I will definitely get my money's worth of pleasure using it despite the price I paid.

Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2015, 03:34:55 PM »
Thanks for the link vtsteam! Alas, I cannot open it at work (dang interweb filters), but will check it out when I get home.

Here's a few more pictures of the machine as it was a few days ago. Also, some more notes:
* The original vise is in good shape and includes the wrench
* The original handle is in good shape, and fits on about everything that needs adjustment on the machine!
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2015, 03:52:02 PM »
How's the image size working for you guys?

The first thing to tackle was the motor. I can't wait to see this thing turn over!

The motor was pretty easy to remove, only three bolts secure it to the motor mount. The wiring is straightforward, but in very bad shape, with a lot of the insulation flaking off as I handle the wires. I think this will need replacing throughout the machine. This isn't a big deal, we're talking about a whopping 2 wires.

The motor came apart pretty easily. Four long machine screws secured the two cast end plates of the motor, with the stator and housing between them. After removing one end plate and the pulley the rotor slid right out. The bearings appear to be sintered bronze bushings, and are lubricated using oil cups on either side of the motor.

With the rotor out, the problem quickly became apparent. This motor uses four commutation brushes in an interesting arrangement, mounted to a floating brush holder. Two springs are used to press the brushes against the commutator, and one of the springs was broken. Without the spring force present, the brush holder itself was rubbing against the commutator. This is what was causing the sparks. Luckily, it doesn't look like this was used for very long at all in this condition, as the scoring on the commutator is minimal and the brush holder and brushes are in good shape. This looks fixable!

Background: 15 minutes of Google-fu identified this motor as a repulsion-type motor. These motors were used between ~1920 to 1950-ish in situations that require a lot of startup torque. The construction of the motor is very similar to an induction motor, but the ends of the squirrel cage are connected to a commutator instead of just being shorted. The speed and torque of the motor are adjustable by changing the angle of the brushes relative to the stator coils. Some modern motors use this technology today in a repulsion start, induction run configuration for high starting torque and good running efficiency.

The motor faceplate is very difficult to read, and all the paint has flaked off. I believe it is a 1/3 hp motor that runs on 110VAC.
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2015, 04:06:40 PM »
To fix this motor I'll need to buy or build a new spring for it. I can't find a spring that is similar enough for me to be confident that it'll work, so I did some research on spring winding and bought some 0.031" music wire from McMaster-Carr. ($3 of wire and $14 in shipping, next time I'm going to eBay)

The spring I need is a tension spring with ends about 1 1/4" long. The spring is made of 0.030" wire, and has 11 turns. The ID is approximately 0.3".

My first attempt at spring winding did not end up well. I turned an arbor to the right diameter for the ID of the tension spring, then used a vice-grips to clamp the end of the wire to the arbor and wound it up by turning the lathe by hand. The spring looked good on the arbor! According to the internet I needed to remove the spring from the arbor before stress-relieving it. However, before the spring had even come off the arbor it had already re-configured itself as a multi-turn pretzel. oops.

My next attempt turned out better. I modified the arbor to hold the ends of the wire better, then chucked it up in the drill press and wound it up by hand (the lathe was busy). Again, the spring looked good on the arbor, even though I had to tweak it with a pair of pliers to get the ends to look right. This time I left it on the arbor for the stress relieving step. I wrapped it in steel wool and multiple layers of tinfoil (to minimize the smell), then begged my wife for access to her oven in the kitchen. She allowed me access (with several conditions, my to-do list just got longer), so I popped it in and set the heat for 550 degrees Fahrenheit, the highest the oven would allow. After heating for two hours and cooling in the oven overnight, I was able to remove the spring from the arbor and trim the edges. It looks pretty good for the first success, it might even work in the motor!

After a test-fit, the spring fit the motor just fine! I'm very confident that it will work now.
Anything is possible when you forget what's impossible.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2015, 04:11:48 PM »
Another possibility for a quick spring in future is K&E music wire at most hobby or craft stores, and even some hardware stores.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2015, 04:16:10 PM »
She's alive!

After assembling the motor back onto the shaper and connecting some temporary wiring, she fired right up! Other than a strange whining/buzzing noise for the first second of running (every time), the motor runs nice and quiet.

Before firing up the motor, I did go through it again and use about 2+ cups of oil lubricating everything.

The shaper runs nicely as well, although I immediately noticed a "clunking" noise coming from the ram lever once per stroke. The bushing that connects the ram lever to the large bull gear must have a fair amount of slop in it. I hadn't noticed it before, but with the machine stopped I can move the ram about 1/16" - 1/8" forward and backwards. I can't see the bushing in question, there is a cover plate mounted on the ram lever that does not come off when I take all the screws out.

Hopefully this is not an indication of a worn-out machine. Everything else has looked pretty good on this unit, although I may be missing obvious signs due to inexperience.

I'll take a video of it next time I get into the shop.
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2015, 05:13:19 PM »
Vtsteam, I looked at a couple of the local hardware stores here, but all the wire they carried appeared to be galvanized steel wire. Silly me, I didn't think to look at a music store...

Here's a video showing the play in the ram. Should I be worried about this?

[embed=425,349]<iframe width="560" height="315" src="
" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/embed]

My next step will be to remove the ram and ram lever to get access to the bushing and assess the condition.
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Offline Will_D

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2015, 05:51:11 PM »
Its a loooong time since I used a shaper!

1. Wear in the bearings/ram mechanism is unlikely to make that "clacking" noise

2. Shapers have various bits of linkage to provide auto feed to the various movements of the work table. The noise sounds like it maybe comming from the right hand side of the machine (as seen from the front and in the start of the video) That side seems to have the auto feed bits and pieces!

HTH: Will

Recall that old car mechanics would use a stethascope (i.e. Big screwdriver: Handle in ear, blade on engine to diagnose were the noise was actually comming from.

Still used today by modern diesel engine makers who provide a digital audio signature of big ( like ship's or earth mover diesels ) from new so that diagnostics could be performed to predict wear.

At this size of engine there's no such thing as routine maintenance! You listen, and if you detect a bearing or whatever wearing out then that is replaced, only.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2015, 05:53:33 PM »
Funny thing, I'm not actually sure if you can get music wire at a music store!     Hobby shops, for sure.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline Manxmodder

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2015, 09:24:21 PM »
Rocknocker, the back and forth play in the ram is very likely to be wear of the sliding trunnion which runs in the slot in the yoke linkage. There shouldn't be anywhere near the slop that you are demonstrating in the vid.

Play in that area may be as a result of failure by the past owner to adequately lubricate the trunnion and yoke slides.

I had exactly the same problem with my Alba 1A shaper,and also the bushes and shaft which the bull gear runs on were badly worn on mine causing the gear to wiggle about.

My solution was to make a new larger dia housing for the bull gear bearings and upgrade to sealed ball race bearings(fit and forget).

An oversize trunnion block was made from bronze and the yoke sliding faces were remachined on the milling machine to remove all score marks and the new trunnion finished to give 5 thou clearance.....OZ.
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2015, 09:58:30 PM »
Will,
That's interesting, another thing learned, this time about ship's diesel engines!
The feed mechanism does make some noise, but I had it in neutral for the video. I haven't gone through that part of the shaper yet, so it may have issues that could be causing this.
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2015, 10:18:38 PM »
Manxmodder,
You are exactly right, the trunnion was worn (see below). I'll check the bull gear shaft and bearings next.

I spent a while unscrewing, staring, and cursing at the ram assembly before stumbling across a helpful forum online stating that the ram must be removed with the lever and link still attached. I was trying to remove the lever from the ram first. To remove the full assembly, the shaper must be un-bolted from the table and lifted up to gain access to the link (this is not an easy task by oneself, the machine is heavy and unwieldy). Three set screws are removed, then the pin securing the link to the frame can be driven out. Next, the ram slides are un-bolted so the ram can be lifted straight up off the machine. A slight sideways movement once it's partway up, and the ram lever separates from the bull gear and comes right on out!

After placing the assembly on a table, it was immediately apparent that the trunnion bushing was severely worn, especially on the side facing the front of the machine. Also, the heavy amounts of gunk in the assembly had clogged up the oil feed hole to the trunnion pin itself. At the least, the block will need to be re-made. This should be easy, the part is solid brass. However, there was very little, if any, damage to the ram lever itself. The machining marks were still visible on both sides of the slot, indicating that wear is minimal. I have not measured to fully verify however.

Other notes:
* No discernable wear is detectable on the ram slides.
* The inside of the machine is full of gunk and metal shavings.
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Offline Manxmodder

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2015, 12:02:09 AM »
Rockknocker,good that you now know where you're problems are. The yoke slideways don't look too worn from the photos,but I would recommend measuring the width at several points and checking for parallel of the slot along the full length and also across the width for taper.

 Stick with it,you'll enjoy that machine when she's back in running order.....OZ.
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline hermetic

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2015, 10:09:56 AM »
Hi Rocknocker, The motor sounds dead right to me! That is what a repulsion motor sounds like as it comes up to speed. I have an ancient huge one on my Covmac lathe!
Phil
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2015, 11:16:14 PM »
It's been 6 months but I finally have some progress to report! Now that the fence is up, the chicken house is built and chickens purchased, the garden is planted/grown/cleaned up, the yard is reworked, the landscaping is finished, the trailer is built, the swing set is built, and the trampoline is set up, I can get back to playing in the shop!

I machined a new trunnion out of bearing bronze and have reassembled the machine with it installed. For one of my very first machined items, I'm really happy with how it turned out. There are only two bone-headed mistakes in the simple three-operation piece, but none of them are critical...

New trunnion fits perfectly and goes a long way towards quieting the machine down. The only unnecessary clacking I can hear now is the drive and bull gear loading and unloading, but it is very faint.

Some interesting points:
* The original trunnion was actually iron or steel, not brass. This baffles me, as an iron or steel bushing, on a steel pin, sliding in cast iron ways seems like a very poor choice. Maybe it is a "soft" iron, because it did wear significantly without affecting either the pin or the cast iron ways.
* The cast iron ways measure out exactly parallel (within the precision of my measuring tools)
* The motor is actually a repulsion-start, induction-run motor. I had the safety cover off during a start and noticed that the entire brush assembly "lifts" away from the rotor after spinning up.
* Sorry for the poor quality images, the only camera I had handy when I finished the trunnion wasn't a very good one.
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2015, 11:25:50 PM »
This thing is fun to use!

I chucked up a hunk of aluminum that was laying around, lubed and re-lubed everything on the machine, and started 'er up! This machine can carve aluminum like it's butter! The side-cutting bit that has been in the shaper for the last 10 years (at least) could carve metal pretty quickly, but only left an "ok" finish.

I spent 15 minutes grinding my first shaper bit (with one eye on YouTube) and chucked it up for a finish cut. The finish was beautiful! In the image below, you can see the reflection of the cutting bit in the machined surface. The machine is feeding ~0.015" away from the camera per cut. The old cutter is sitting on the vice, and the un-machined surface has the finish achieved with that cutter. In comparison, the aluminum surface closest to the camera was milled out with a Bridgeport.

Since this is my first hand-ground cutter and is undoubtedly far from perfect, I'm sure this machine is capable of doing an even better job with a capable operator. I chucked up some steel and had a lot more trouble, so I'm working through that now.

More information and images/videos to follow in the next several days!
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Offline DMIOM

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2015, 04:33:09 AM »
 :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:

Hypnotic aren't they!

Dave

Offline joshagrady

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2015, 04:43:43 AM »
Rock,

Congratulations on a beautiful machine.  I think a shaper is a wonderful addition to any home shop.

Funny thing, I'm not actually sure if you can get music wire at a music store!     Hobby shops, for sure.

I've had best luck by buying a beer for the local piano tuner every once in awhile.  He doesn't do full refurbs very often, but when he does he ends up throwing away lots of wire.  It was fairly simple to convince him to keep me in mind and, instead of binning the wire,give me a ring instead.

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2015, 08:47:29 PM »
Pleased to see you got it sorted out. :clap:

The shaper will produce a surface finish better than any other technique provided the tool form is right.

You've a nice finish on that bit of ally,I bet you're real pleased with the results of your trials and labours.

On the subject of trunnion material,when I first got my Alba the trunnion was a block of cast iron running direct in the cast iron yoke which isn't too bad a choice of bearing materials provided the user remembers to oil the surfaces frequently.

Mine was in a desperate state and looked like it had been run for many hours without any lubrication which had caused seizing and tearing of the inner slide faces of the yoke.
The trunnion had about 1.5 mm of play in the yoke at the worst wear points.

The yoke needed the inner faces resufacing on the mill to get them cleaned up and parallel,and a new oversized trunnion was made from bronze and she's been a delight to use since the refurb.

One point about you tool form,the nose radius looks about right but a further improvement is to grind a really generous side rake angle to create what is often referred to as a shearing tool.

Have a look around youtube for some examples of shaper shearing tool design......OZ.

 
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2015, 10:55:59 PM »
Thanks for all the encouragement!

Dave, yes the shaper is one of those machines that has a certain elegance about it. It is probably because all the parts are moving slow enough that one can see exactly how it works and how the bit carves the metal.

Josh, I ended up buying more wire than I'll need in my lifetime from McMaster-Carr for a few bucks. Next time, I'll try to figure out to save on shipping costs though.

OZ, at your recommendation I looked up shearing tools and definitely plan to make one, they look like they work really well. It sounds like your shaper trunnion was in similar shape to mine, but my yoke survived the abuse better somehow. I'm still not sure exactly what material the old trunnion was made of, maybe one day I'll measure the density and figure out what it is.
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: New Old Shaper - Atlas 7b
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2015, 11:38:52 PM »
Well, I broke it!  :(

In the 4 or so hours that I've used the shaper since last weekend, I've been trying to learn the ins and outs of the machine. I've learned a lot, but I've also abused the machine quite a bit. Mainly, the machine has been stopped by a bit digging in or a part shifting at least three or four times. Each time, the motor pulley just started slipping, stopping the machine with no fanfare or signs of damage. This is not what broke it.

During the fateful cut, the shaper was facing a piece of metal clamped to the side of the table. This requires the table to be cranked all the way over to one side for the bit to be able to reach it. The shaper was happily carving metal from the workpiece using the power feed to run it back and forth. Unfortunately, I didn't think of how close I was to the end of the feed and looked away for a few seconds too long... crack-click-crack-crack! My power feed had crashed the table into the end of the lead screw.

The fallout is below:
* broken power feed leadscrew gear (PN: 9-101-20)
* cracked Zamak power ratchet case (PN: S7-23D)
* chipped pawl (PN: S7-75A)
* single partially chewed up tooth on ratchet gear (PN: S7-81)
* bruised ego (PN: TK-0UCH)

Based on my previous research on this machine, the Zamak power feed housing crack is not a surprise, it was probably the first thing to go. The leadscrew gear probably failed next, and the pawl and gear tooth were damaged when I wasn't able to stop the machine before it cycled once more. My ego was then bruised when I realized how obvious it was that this could happen, given that I was operating right at the edge of my table's range of movement.

Luckily, the machine works fine without the power feed assembly installed. There was no visible damage to the lead screw, lead screw nut, or any other part of the machine. I was able to cut several more passes on the same part by turning the feed crank manually.
Anything is possible when you forget what's impossible.