Author Topic: coffee cup stirling  (Read 12403 times)

Offline bertie_bassett

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coffee cup stirling
« on: May 24, 2015, 05:20:31 AM »
managed to get some time in the workshop yesterday and actually started making something!

forgot to take many photos along the way but it was mostly only basic turning so nothing new.

original plan was to follow a Jan Ridders design, but due to parts availability things have changed somewhat and I designed it as I went along.

the glass displacer cylinder was cut last year by rotating on the lathe and using a dremel on the tool post to cut through and clean up.



first I cut out the base and top plates with a large hole cutter in the mill, these were then turned to size on the lathe to end up with these.




these are thicker then originally planned so i bored out the base to extend the displacer cylinder and give a 2mm thick base for quicker heating.

the top plate i left thick to allow attaching of parts, and the center hole is bigger then id have liked but there was already a threaded hole in the plate and once cleaned up it was 16mm diameter

working upwards i turned an old motor brush into a central bush for the top plate, ill center drill it later on the mill.





with the base done i moved onto POWER piston :)

im using a 12mm test tube for the power piston, which I managed to cleanly cut on the 3rd attempt, good job I ordered 10!
seems to be nice and cylindrical with only the top 2 mm being slightly smaller, the main part is fine.

so now the tricky bit of making the piston

first i chucked up a bit of plastic rod  to use as a mandrel (its actually a pin from a large plastic chain) this i drilled and tapped 3mm


i then cut another bit of brush to rough shape and tapped it 3mm, mounted it on the mandrel and started turning.


high speed but slow light cuts was the order of the day, with lots of checking against the tube. i had planned on stopping a few thou oversize and polishing it to a perfect fit, but my last cut was a tad deeper then i wanted and it ended up slipping inside the tube easily :(
 pulled it off the lathe to se what it was like, and was pleasantly surprised when it actually floated with the end of the tube blocked, and fell with it open  :jaw:



edit: just tried again and it slowly sinks with the ends sealed, takes about 8 seconds to go from top to bottom - might have to re do that  :Doh:

next up was the crank assembly, these bits i salvaged from a couple of old valve actuators from work, lots of shiny bits  perfect for modding  :dremel:

to make all the cranks the same i made a holder from the bit of plastic and offset it. 5mm was the plan, but had to go to 7 to clear the central boss. hopefully the extra throw wont cause an issue.



with the part in the holder i secured it with a wood screw and carefully drilled it. worked well for 3 but the last one came loose and snapped my drill bit. :Doh: also the hole is so close to the gear teeth iv managed to break one tooth off   :doh: but ill live with that for the moment.



and that's about up to date. next job it the bearing blocks. i did make an attempt last night but they looked terrible so back to the drawing board for those.  ideas anyone??






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Offline Manxmodder

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2015, 11:46:39 AM »
Good start, Bertie. I plan to make a few different versions of experimental coffee cup LTD engines myself,so will be watching this thread with interest......OZ.
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2015, 12:18:39 PM »
made a bit more progress today.

decided to actually use the new mill so had to tram it first, surprisingly it wasn't far off to begin with, and managed to get it to about 1 thou over a 12inch sweep which will do for now.

first real cut resulted in this



I reckon that not bad as it been years since I used a mill and guessed the speed, also pleased with the cheap cutters I got from china.

a few hours later and its looking good




am pleased with the bearing blocks, not sure why I was trying to make split blocks by hand yesterday, solid blocks with work fine.  angles were done by eye so not perfect, but functional.
just need some brass domed nuts to go on top - ebay  should provide

con rods and fly wheel are the next items required am thinking of this for the fly wheel.



is cast brass off an old valve wheel and once the paint is off should look good, balance may be an issue though??

also need to work out how to hook the con rods to the crank, was thinking of using 4x8 bearings, but then ill have to put everything together before I braise/glue it together?
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2015, 08:47:03 PM »
Quote
i had planned on stopping a few thou oversize and polishing it to a perfect fit, but my last cut was a tad deeper then i wanted and it ended up slipping inside the tube easily :(

Oh man, is that a familiar situation!

Glad it worked out in the end, and looking good Bertie!  :thumbup: :clap: :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2015, 04:15:52 AM »
Thanks VT I'm quite pleased with how its looking, whether it will actually run is another matter!

I'm thinking its a lot heavier them most designs but perhaps it will be ok. Iv never built any form of engine befor so its all an experiment.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2015, 10:21:06 AM »
It may take a lot of heat if the bearings friction is great. They usually use super light weight components to reduce bearing friction in low tempereature differential engines.

If your dispacer is heat resistant you can increase the temperature over a foam displacer,  if you find it doesn't work at low temps. Balsa can go higher than foam.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2015, 02:54:10 PM »
got a bit more progress done.

first I cleaned up the flywheel with some heat and an ally scraper, also persuaded it to be somewhat flat.

that was followed by turning up a center bush and soft soldering it in place




once cool (ish) it was out in the lathe and using the outer edge as a reference I cleaned up the center and drilled it out to 4mm to fit the crank shaft



made a small cock up when turning the larger boss on the backside, was supposed to mirror the other side but forgot to direction or the auto travers and ran into the work  :doh: 



set it on the shaft and it runs nicely, seems a bit un-balanced but that may work to my advantage when it come to balancing everything else.

i then moved onto the con rods decided to use the mill a bit more and made up these



worked out the required lengths on autocad, so im hoping they are right

also made up the pins for both power piston and displacer



and heres how its looking




tonight's job is to work out where everything is going to sit on the crank, then it can be glued together



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Offline Steenkamp

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2015, 12:33:41 AM »
Hi Bertie, nice looking stirling. They are absolutey fascinating engines.I have also built a few of the Jan Ridders ltd's and if done right they will run reliably forever as long as there is a large enough temperature difference between the top and bottom plates.

One thing that is a killer on these engines is friction. I have used computer harddrive bearings and needle point bearings in my engines. Both without any oil. The viscocity of even the lightest oil in a ball bearing creates enough friction to make the motor a non starter.
Coupled with reducing friction is reducing weight. I have made my displacer rod out of brass tube running in graphite bushing and sealed at both ends with ally "plugs" light press fitted with locktite. These plugs would also serve as displacer holder and displacer conrod clevis.
Pistons were made with graphite running in brass tube as i could not get hold of truly cylindrical test tubes. Final "cuts on the graphite parts were made with copier paper as i just "sanded" them to size, leaves a very smooth finish.  Balancing is another issue and should be done with the bottom plate off.
To check for any air leaks i "pressure test" the engine by leaving it in the freezer for an hour or so. Once a nice white frost condensates on the engine as you take it out and submerge it in warm water. I normally use a clear salad bowl when swambo isnt looking. Thus heating up the air inside the displacer it expands and make bubbles where you have air leaks. Do not leave it in the water too long as theengine will heat up sufficiently to start drawing the water in. Bad news!!
I hope this can help you to get the stirling going

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2015, 12:16:38 PM »
well as usual its all starting to go wrong! 1 step forward and 4 steps back :bang:

started to put the crank together yesterday. thought id use a nice bit of 4mm steel rod that fits the gears perfectly, but couldn't work out how to fix the brass cranks to it. so I switched to 4mm brass rod. problem was the 4mm rod was actually 4.2! so after a lot of work with sandpaper I got it down to a size where the bearings would fit on it nicely (after breaking 2) so I assembled said shaft in one piece with bearings and con rods installed and warmd it up to solder it together, all went to plan - sort of

then carefully cut out the bits I didn't need and gave it a test fit, it did spin - honest





looking ok, but a bit bent and conrod bearings have got a bit warm, should be ok I think to myself.

so today I started trimming up the excess and cleaning the crank up with the aim of straightening it. unfortunately I found one of the conrod bearings to feel 'gritty' and as I moved it about , the balls fell out! :Doh:

so now iv got a crank all solderd together with con rods attached, but with buggerd bearings.

also iv noticed I need to redo the displacer shaft seal again, as the hole still isn't right :doh:


soo Iv now given up and am going to get a large whiskey, if anyones got any good ideas on how to do this crank pleas let me know. its got me rather annoyed at the moment.
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Offline awemawson

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #9 on: June 03, 2015, 01:45:42 PM »
Bad luck Bertie  : I think 1 step forwards and 4 back is just about par for projects like this. It's all good character forming stuff that will stand you in excellent stead for the MK2 version  :thumbup:
Andrew Mawson
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Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2015, 02:41:09 PM »
Bertie -- Just remember that the 3rd Law of Thermodynamics clearly states thatchaos wins!  ;-)

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2015, 03:35:48 PM »
right well im a bit calmer now. food and drink has helped

iv no idea how im going to re-do/salvage this crank though, I think I should have gone with my original plan of locktight. but it may be too late now
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2015, 09:25:09 PM »
Notice the sig!

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2015, 08:15:24 AM »
right well im a bit calmer now. food and drink has helped

iv no idea how im going to re-do/salvage this crank though, I think I should have gone with my original plan of locktight. but it may be too late now

Hi Bertie, sorry to see this go bad for you,but as you have already said I think the retainer grades of Loctite or Trulock are probably your best bet.

Silver soldering small crank assemblies is often a difficult and somewhat hit and miss process.

If 'Stilldrilling' AKA David sees this he may be able to offer you some useful advice on the subject of crank assembly. He is a master of these techniques.

What I can offer is my recent experience in building a crank for a Beng's little Nick flamelicker.

The build notes recommend that the crank is soft soldered,but expressly warns against high temperature silver soldering as distortion is very likely to occur.

As it happens,I did neither and went with the loctite retainer adhesive method,which seems to have worked very well......OZ.
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2015, 06:59:09 PM »
well iv slowly been making progress with this

managed to dismantle the crank and rebuild using jbweld. I didn't fancy my chances of cutting the waste out without damaging the bearings, so made it in sections.

i used a a pair of  matched vee blocks against a bit of bar to hold everything in line whilst the glue set



and with a bit of fettling i ended up with this



gave it a test run but no joy :(

it did 'try' a little with ice on top and the base very hot but nowhere near enough and the whole lot just got hot. also i must have got  the crank round the wrong way as it wouldn't even 'try' going forward :Doh:

seems im still having issues with that graphite  shaft gland, despite being drilled perfectly centrally and polishing the displacer shaft to a lovely sliding fit it just wasn't right.
i suspect it was too soft as it seemed to be wearing oval and allowing the shaft to wobble thus causing excess friction as well and tilting the displacer over enough to make contact occasionally with the top and base.

so i pulled it all apart and bored out the graphite bush ( again) this time iv made  new one out of delrin, which im hoping will do the job.
also made a new glass power cylinder and piston as i manage to break the glass on the first :doh:  this new power piston is better then the first though so im hoping it will help.




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Offline Manxmodder

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2015, 11:46:50 PM »
Bertie,nice to see you have not given up on it,you're sure to get a runner eventually.

I really do like the look of it with the re-purposed components and gearwheel crank. :thumbup: ......OZ.
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline vtsteam

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2015, 08:27:12 AM »
Bertie, nothing's ever for sure, and you may surprise me yet, but I still think you have too much mass (and therfore friction) in the basic design for a really low temperature differential Stirling.

I think it will work fine with more temperature differential, the only limitation being the material used for the displacer, and how much heat it can handle. Balsa can handle a higher temperature than foam or other plastics, and a hollow aluminum displacer can handle even more, though heat transfer along the sides of an aluminum can favors a longer displacer and cylinder. The length will determine how long it runs without the whole engine heating and slowing down. The shape and materials of a Stirling engine are closely related to the temperature differential chosen.

It's a great looking engine, I think, and I'd love to see it run.  :thumbup: :thumbup: :clap: :clap:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2015, 01:49:54 PM »
managed a few more hours on it today

firstly I cleaned up the balsa displacer, and glued in a M3 nut on each face. these are to hopefully allow things to stay square and secure. gluing these in was a right arse as iv made the displacer hollow with the faces only being 1-2mm thick, but I got there in the end :)

next job was to turn up a small brass collar for the base of the power cylinder. this is mostly cosmetic, but also allows me to get more silicone round the base for better sealing ( there was a small leak last time)

then everything was re-assembled and siliconed up. currently waiting for it to dry


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Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2015, 02:20:36 PM »
well after a few jobs and writing the last instalment I got bored/impatient so decided the silicone must have gone of and it was time for a test run.

here the result!



started running at 18:25 on a fresh cup of hot water from the kettle and stopped at 18:45 not bad for an engine with the wrong materials and too much mass  :thumbup:


on close inspection there are a few issues still with the displacer though, namely:

1- there is a slight rubbing noise form the displacer seal
2- the displacer is on slightly crooked
3 - the displacer is just catching on the base, just enough for it to stop momentarily, but not enough to cause binding ( there is a bit of slop in the clevis pin which is helping me out here )
4- the balance could be improved ( for the moment iv just stuck an M6 nylock nut on with double sided sticky tape)

oh and its still going backwards  :doh:

I believe if the displacer wasn't crooked then it wouldn't be catching, but being as its a runner i'm not going to fiddle with it anymore. its  going to be a present for my dad's birthday next week so don't want to risk it not running again.

all that now left to do is to make up a nicer balance weight ( am thinking brass letters with his initials) and to make up some small brass covers for those bearing mounts. then its just going to be polishing!

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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2015, 03:10:01 PM »
Nice one Bertie!  :clap: :clap:

Learning the necessary finesse, for these frustrating engines, is really character forming......  :bang: :bang:

Well done!  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline awemawson

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2015, 04:21:38 PM »
Hooray  :thumbup: :thumbup:

Persistence pays off in the end - very rewarding to arrive isn't it, even though the journey is the main enjoyment.  :clap:
Andrew Mawson
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2015, 11:28:08 PM »
Well, you did it!  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :bow: :bow: :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline Steenkamp

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2015, 05:42:51 PM »
Well done Bertie! Glad you got it running

Offline raynerd

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2015, 07:16:33 PM »
Nice one mate. I don't post too often on here anymore but I have been watching from the start. I admit, I was in the "it'll not run asim has too much mass" camp - glad you proved us wrong!

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: coffee cup stirling
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2015, 01:11:10 PM »
im glad it worked too! was my very first engine!  and my dad was very happy with his present :)

It does need a large temp difference to run  -  about 60-70 degrees C but ran fairly well and topped out at 100rpm

have to say im pleasantly surprised at how 'easy' it actually was to get going, I was under the impression that these were difficult to get to run.  I know I had a few issues during the build, but they were mostly just construction/material related

got orders for a few more now, and need a bigger one to use as a stove fan for next winter.
a competent engineer uses the tools and knowledge available, to get a challenging job done.

 An incompetent "engineer" tells his boss that the existing equipment "can't do the job" and to get another machine