what to do with ideas you cant realise?

[shipto]

I have had an idea in my head for months now for a engine, I have searched and searched but cannot find any existing engine design that uses the idea. Of course this could mean its been tried and failed and thus been lost to all mankind as a way not to do it until the next idiot thinks of it again.
Anyway assuming for a while that my idea is unique and never been tried, my first thought was to get some parts make other parts and build a prototype however this for me with my limited resources (not to mention skill level) is a daunting task.
Second thought was to do some drawings and apply for a patent, once again limited resources and skill would come into play. My technical drawing is only just readable by me and I dare say anyone else would struggle to make sense of my scribblings.
Third thought was to contact a existing engine manufacturer and offer to take them through the idea possibly after visiting a law type person so that if it turned out that the idea is as good as I suspect I could get the benefits and kudos that were due.
If I go for option 3 I would prefer to offer it to a British manufacturer first (no offence to the rest of the world)
So.... Thoughts, ideas or whatever would be welcome.

[ieezitin]

Shipto..
I have been there and done that! 

I answered an ad in a prominent engineering magazine in the late eighties for Rank Hovis Flour co where they had problems with 50Kg flour bags and sealing them where they would not come apart through vigorous shipping, plus they needed to be swung 90 degrees and shoved down a chute, I designed and built a bag stitcher and oreinter for them on the promise my machines would be installed in every mill in the UK…. They lied, they reversed engineered and had someone else do it. 

Simular thing happened with a electric coil manufacturer in Wales where they made a layered leaf two piece coil design and wanted to crimp a built in dove tail joint and have them squeezed together at such a force it did not disturb the current flowing through it after joining, I built the machine in my shop and assembled it on my kitchen table, I took it to the meeting to show them and never heard a word again, I found out their own shop copied the design.
Moral of this story… keep your thoughts and designs to yourself …. There gonna steal it.

Patents don’t mean nothing to you, they are not in place for you, they are there for two reasons, the government keeps tabs on what's being designed and they get first dibs and industry gets second, they see the submittals. You don’t have enough money to patent; you don’t have the resources to inforce it. People have to realize having a patent in England just covers England, you need patents in every country to protect your product, that’s if you have the legal wherewithal at your disposal.

Your problem my friend is not the design, nor the product, your problem is not what you think it is, your dilemma is marketing, marketing a design to a manufacturer who under license will make your design, sell and distribute while slicing you off a percentage over a given length of time, this is ten times easier to keep under control from a legal origin with the added benefit of no capital outlay to you.

Not knowing your design, I don’t need too, my advice is just the idea may be sufficient to make a sale… Moral of the story is you're in the sales business my friend.

Hope this helps.

Anthony

[John Stevenson]

Could not have said it better.

Seen those self contained hydraulic power packs that work a breaker for ripping roads up ?

JCB came out with the first commercial one, guess who thought it all up and designed it ?

Believe it or not but I have had more money and royalties off the Chinese than any western country.

Long short, an individual cannot do it on their own. you have to sell the idea to a design consortium or just do it, publicise it as much as possible so later when, not if, it gets ripped off you can say "That was mine "

[vtsteam]

I read this years ago, it's 25 years old, and it's truer today than it was even then. While it applies to U.S. patents and practices, I bet it has a universal truth for everywhere else that profit prevails. Don Lancaster, by the way was a computer and electronics guru here back in the late 70's -- I read and used many of his computer "cookbooks" to build my first computer and modify a TV set into a non-RF (direct connected) monitor for my RS color computer. He's fun to read, even if cynical. But I believe he's telling it like it is. He's also a blatant opportunist. But then he says he is....

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/casagpat.pdf

[shipto]

Thanks all, though it makes for grim reading especially vt's link. So much for my cash cow 
I will think on it a little more but there every chance it might appear in the "design shop" area in the near future.

[Jonny]

Wise words Anthony in fact spot on having been done several times over.

I have respect for the true masterminds but often its the bank balance that prevails others to steal.
Best of luck.

[shipto]

This bit in the article:

Fact – Prior art is not needed to bust any patent.
All you really have to do is show that the claims would
have been reasonably obvious to any "practitioner in the
field." That’s all it takes.

Is the worse part for me as I got my idea while playing around with a 2 stroke mini-moto engine and my first thought was why the hell hasnt anyone done this.
As I said though there may be a glaringly obvious reason that will mean the engine will never work but I cant see it.

[vtsteam]

Duane, I do believe there is a way, but it isn't the patent way necessarily. Today, branding and marketing are what patenting was to the past. If you, or a company makes a good name for itself, that's worth a lot. I don't mean empty marketing or advertising, hype, etc. I mean innovative high quality work. If a company makes a name for it self that way, even if it is immitated or others start to produce knock-offs, the company can always stay a step ahead, because it has the brains to innovate and the integrity to keep its reputation alive. This is a hard road, and there is no one "killer" product that pumps the money in. Rather it is a process, it is the personality of a company, or individual.

It does take a lot of work.

[David Jupp]

I suggest that you try to document your idea - partly it will help to get things clear, but main thing is as a way to be able to demonstrate that you had the idea and when.  I'm sure you'd be fed up if someone else patented the idea and you couldn't show that you'd thought of it earlier.

One way to tie down the date is to send the documents to yourself (or perhaps better your lawyer) by registered mail - the key is that the envelope should not be opened, that is only done in case of a dispute.  The markings from the postal system hopefully provide the dating evidence.

If you do try to develop the idea further yourself, keep a log of what you do, when and outcomes - a bit like a laboratory notebook this would help to show some chronology.

Before discussing with any other party, get a basic NDA signed. 

Good luck!

[trapper]

Call me niave but how about something like the Dragons den,they would either back your product with hard cash or tell you the idea would never generate enough money to be viable,someone like that with their own money behind the product would want it to suceed as they will make a lot of money for themselfs I think the idea is getting it to market quickly and in as many big outlets that they can,its the contacts they have that can get it in place where others would struggle.Dont understand people saying patents are no good as these guys make a living out of backing people and they always demand a patent before investing,Its the speed of getting it to market thats the key,if someone comes along and copies the idea they have to get established outlets,tooling for production,packaging,advertising etc that takes time by the time they do it, its an old idea as you have done it and have made your fortune.

[shipto]

Having thought hard about it I am going to sit on my idea for a little longer and get the details pinned down on paper, make a mock up model from blocks of plastic and make a video with said model with me explaining the way it works. Then I can at least be sure I have not missed any important detail and can be sure the engine will work as I see in my head.
Thanks for all the advice 

[sparky961]

[David Jupp]

Some companies will initially refuse to talk to you if you try to explain the 'how' - there can be good reasons for this.

Though you obviously have to be confident yourself that the 'how' is valid - in initial discussions with others, try to concentrate on the benefits your idea offers (cheaper, faster, better in some other way...).  After all it's the benefits that ought to persuade someone to look more closely at your idea.  Once somebody is interested, then you need NDA in place before explaining any technical detail of your idea to allow a proper review of its potential.

It'll help if you can put some numbers against the benefits - even estimates may be difficult, but things like reduced part count, lower weight, or substitution of cheaper material ought to be quantifiable.