Author Topic: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder  (Read 27420 times)

Offline petertheterrible

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2015, 01:00:23 PM »
The PH that you have can be timed to run in either direction, inlet becomes exhaust and your off. 
New timing marks will be made and a new ID plate fitted indicating R.

If it says Petter it comes from England.  AVA's come from India.  Same thing, same quality sort off  (internal paint peels/ lack the khaki appeal), different name.
 
Not to  :wack:  :hammer: your parade but the only broken pump bodies I have ever seen are due to human error and not the pumps, sorry.

One thing to look out for is that the right hand side bold attaching the pump also secures the priming lever and that these pumps are also shim-set where correct spill diesel quantity isn't reached.
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Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2015, 02:11:57 PM »
Peter, yes I'm sure I'm the culprit in this case - just trying to work out how  :scratch:

I've decided that when I fit the new pump I'll do the spill setting, then slacken the bolts holding the pump down and gently turn things over by hand pressing the pump onto it's mounting. If anything is fouling it'll rise up safely.

I believe that the AVA engines have a very slightly smaller bore with the same stoke, but the big ends are also a bit smaller.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2015, 03:55:40 PM »
To set the fuel rack position accurately there are two special tools illustrated in the book of words, and having done it this morning without them, I now appreciate why a special tool is recommended.

The rack slides horizontally in bushes in the pump body, and these bushes are pressed into a hole around which the casting is 'spot faced'. The rack itself has a calibration mark, and the critical setting is measured from the spot face to this calibration mark. For the 'maximum fuel setting'  it needs to be 1/2" and with the overload stop in place it needs to be 13/16".

It's possible to do it with a digital vernier, but very fiddly and a bit subjective, as the measurement has to 'hook round' the bushes and the rubber bellows, so I thought I'd try and make a combination gauge with both measurements incorporated, roughly copying the illustration in the book.

(The actual measurement is from the end of the 'point' facing downwards to the under side of the horizontal pointer.)
 
Cut it on the Laser Engraver - it's only polycarbonate, but I'm hopefully not going to be using it very often  :ddb:

(Did I say - I LOVE my laser engraver  :lol: )
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2015, 06:43:08 PM »
It's about time someone developed a process for case hardening polycarbonate  :) .....OZ.
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Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2015, 09:09:37 AM »
These little beauties arrived at lunch time, so I'll have to pluck up courage and fit them.

 :bang: :bang: The only conclusion I can come to is I must have timed them on the wrong TDC mark on the flywheel   :bang: :bang:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2015, 07:16:48 AM »
  :ddb: Well I'm delighted to say that she's now running on both cylinders - first time in years  :ddb:

VERY carefully checked which TDC mark corresponded to which cylinder, then sprayed them different colours 'just in case' - only had sheep marker sprays so they will eventually bio-degrade !

Fitted the pumps one by one, but when I came to set up the fuel rack positions discovered that the new pumps had no calibration marks on the racks :bang: Waiting for the supplier to give me a reasonable explanation why they are not there, he's 'checking with his diesel man' . So I had to do it a bit hit and miss, which is annoying as the 'spill point' entirely depends on the initial setting of the rack to set the injection timing accurately. Anyway she's running, and I can probably do a bit of itterative tweaking to get it a bit closer than it is currently.

To celebrate I've decided to give her a reconditioned set of injectors as these ones are not perfect. I took them out today to clean them, then thought - 'hang it, replace them'

Only got to put the mechanics back together, change the air, diesel and oil filters having given her an oil change. Oh and chip the concrete off the top of the gear box so I can get at the oil filler, sort the centre articulation pivot that is VERY sloppy, and then sort out the brake master cylinder - press the pedal and the brake come on and stay on, and can only be released by bleeding at the master cylinder outlet.

Might even take a sledge hammer to the 'body work' and take out a few dents  :lol:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline mattinker

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2015, 07:35:33 AM »
Good stuff!!

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2015, 09:04:21 AM »
   


Might even take a sledge hammer to the 'body work' and take out a few dents  :lol:

A bit of spannering and body building too.....! Is there no end to your talents?  :bow:

Well Done Andrew....good you got it sorted.. :clap:
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Offline petertheterrible

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2015, 12:37:52 PM »
Timing with either the left or right timing marks won't lead to a breakage of the pump.  The only way to screw up something by timing alone on one of these is to change the timing on the gears, which would lead to bent valves.  (Wrong marks used = won't start)

Are the pumps you got new or re-conned?  Most re-conned parts usually don't have a lot of markings of any type.  Have a disassembled pump needing to be rebuild, if it is fine with you I can post pick in a couple weeks time.

Best pump set tool, better than a piece of saw blade, is to cut the tail of a cheap vernier or use one of these plastic card, material, salesman verniers and altering the mouth to look like the beak of a bird that flew into a windscreen. Small inside leg calipers also work when you have adequate access.

You broke the pump by setting the stroke of the follower so far that it crushed the piston of the pump, ie stroke of pump was exceeded by stroke region of follower, and the only thing that could give was the pump body. 

I had engines in the past, other models, where the spill was set to far either bending the cam/ breaking cam bush housings/ breaking gears on the timing train, not on PH models though, so you are extremely lucky.

Slackening the pump won't tell you anything as the pump is spring laden and will rise.  After setting spill the pump is left alone and the engine while decompressed is turned slowly by hand, preferably without a crank to attain if the bump stop is exceeded.

On Rustons, small one's, the follower is of the plunger type with set screw that bends with excessive force, pump bodies can be cast iron.
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Offline petertheterrible

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2015, 12:40:50 PM »
Actually don't feel bad about breaking the pump, you are definitely not the first that broke the ears off.  Incorrect setting of diesel pumps off all kinds has lead to the death of many a engine and many a smile on the engine builders mugs. :)
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Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2015, 01:03:25 PM »
No I'm sure the problem was I set the pump spill point using the wrong cylinders TDC mark - as all references were to start with cylinder nearest the fly wheel I had assumed that that was #1. It's not ! The cylinders are 180 out from each other, so when I set the spill at 24 degrees before TDC I was actually more on the heel of the cam than the rising edge, so as it rotated, as you say the injection pump piston ran out of room.

It's a pity that the pump I destroyed was the better of the two, but never mind both were pretty ropey - lots of slack in the rack bushes, and the rack itself was noticeably worn.

The good news is in searching for an air filter element it turns out to be identical to the one I used in my JCB 3CX that I sold a couple of years ago, but still had spares on the shelf  :thumbup:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2015, 03:11:51 PM »
Did a quick fix to the rain cap for the air filter housing this afternoon. The rain cap had rusted / vibrated off years ago and was just sitting there by gravity. So I rolled up a 2" tube from some 1.5 mm galvanised sheet, cut some tabs into it, bent them out as mounting ears and bolted it all together. The 2" tube slips as a tight fit over the inlet which points upwards in use. Rolled up sheet was spot welded to form the tube which I rolled using a set of rollers I inherited from my friend George years back. Doesn't get used often but by heck they are useful at times.

I still need to sort the 'pop valve' that is just a little rubber moulding that sits on the spigot at the lower end of that picture - just a length of 40 mm soft rubber tube would do. The idea is that the suck of incoming air closes this valve, but any back fire has an easy route to escape and also dust collects on it and engine pressure variations expel it. No sign of a spare anywhere so I may well resort to the soft rubber tube if I can find any - maybe even a bit of old cycle inner tube if the bore is about right.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 03:44:59 PM by awemawson »
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline RussellT

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2015, 04:38:51 PM »
Well done Andrew. :clap:

I do admire the way you overcome difficulties that would have others scrapping the machines.

   sort out the brake master cylinder - press the pedal and the brake come on and stay on, and can only be released by bleeding at the master cylinder outlet.

I had a similar problem with a car brake recently - it turned out to be a flexible hose which would only permit fluid to flow at high pressure.  It doesn't sound like that's the case on your dumper but I suspect a similar mechanism.

Russell




Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2015, 04:47:34 PM »
Thanks Russell.

Not had the master cylinder off yet - it may well not be original as it had obviously just been changed when I got the dumper years back so sourcing the rubber bits might be a chore.

Good news on the 'pop valve' (or dust valve, or vacuator or drain valve depending whose describing it) It looks as though one from a Massey Ferguson 165 tractor may fit with a bit of trimming to the flange on the filter housing  :ddb:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Pete W.

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2015, 10:20:23 AM »
Hi there, Andrew,

I'm pleased you're making good progress.

If the Ferguson tractor valve doesn't work out, try your local Dive shop!  It sounds as though the exhaust valve from the original Siebe-Gorman (or Cousteau-Gagnan) Aqualung demand valve might do the job. 
Best regards,

Pete W.

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Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2015, 12:29:45 PM »
Thanks Pete I'll bear that in mind, but I hope NOT to go diving in this dumper  :ddb:

The two new injectors arrived today, so now I have another 'oily hands' day ahead of me fitting those, and doing an oil change and fuel filter change.

I also made a momentus decision - that the seat WAS beyond repair and needed replacing. I put this expense off until I got the engine running, silly to give the scrap yard a new seat! Amazingly eBay has provided the exact same KAB seat  - even down to the spacing of the mounting holes so that's a bonus.

Would have fitted them today except I was told that I had to take SWMBO out for lunch followed by watching the latest James Bond film - escapism but how they can say that level of violence is suitable for 12 year olds is beyond me - no wonder we have delinquents in society  :bugeye:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline tom osselton

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2015, 03:55:51 PM »
I haven't watched James Bond in years the older actors were the best I prefer Mr Bean!

Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #42 on: November 13, 2015, 08:24:06 AM »
So between the showers this morning I set out to change the injectors, do an oil change, and change the fuel filter.

Injectors first - loosened off the overspill banjos, released the pipe, and decided one banjo bolt was a bit manky on it's hex flats. Had a spare so went to get it and idly screwed it into one of the new injectors that was on the same bench - or rather I didn't - the new injectors are a different size - like mine on steroids  :bang:

So that's one job that won't get done today - apologies from the supplier but that doesn't help me today  :(

I'd intended to test the injectors and set up tick over speed whilst the engine was warming up for the oil change - never mind we ran ok on the old ones, and when warm changed the oil filter and oil, and fuel filter (which was unbelievably mucky)

A courier arrived while this was happening with the new seat, so I'm afraid his hand held signing pad got covered in oil - sorry !

Hope to start putting the 'bodywork' back on tomorrow if there's a dry spell - then I can attack the brake master  cylinder fault.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #43 on: November 13, 2015, 09:21:48 AM »
Oh I almost forgot - that rubber 'dust valve' or 'vacuator' turned up in the mornings post and amazingly it fits (with a bit of stretch and some Hellerman oil) without trimming the flange, so that's ticked off the list.

Still ticking over a bit fast which I must sort somehow - it's the balance between the centrifugal governor and the injector pump return spring that I need to sort.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline ddmckee54

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #44 on: November 13, 2015, 12:17:27 PM »
Have you got a clamp for that 'vacuator'?  Without a clamp I can just see that thing getting launched to who knows where if the engine ever does back-fire.

Don
Too many irons, not enough fire.

Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2015, 12:23:27 PM »
Don yes I had the same thought  :bugeye:

Perhaps a Jubilee clip round it would be prudent, but they never had them originally. My JCB 803 has a very similar one and again no original clamp - mind you the rubber bit WAS missing when I got the machine  :lol:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline AdeV

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2015, 01:13:41 PM »
It's pretty rare to have one of those engines backfire TBH, about the only way you'll do it is if you spin it backwards, and even then the timing will be all wrong, you're more likely to hydraulic lock it than fire it in reverse. My guess would be the rubber simply got a bit rotten and fell off at some point in the past - especially if it's lived most of its life out doors.
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Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2015, 06:49:00 AM »
So a bit more progress:

I'd had several instances of finding the battery flat overnight - I'd thought I'd perhaps left the ignition switch in the wrong position as there is no charge light fitted. The engine is started on the switch but stopped by pulling a lever on the fuel rail so it's easy to forget to return the switch to it's original position. However investigation showed that in fact the alternator was kaput - it is an obscure one whose external shape exactly matches the common Lucas ACR 17 36 amp one, but internally it was totally different and extremely corroded and clagged up. So rather than re-build it I bought a standard ACR 17 - they are available amazingly cheaply, and while I was at it I fitted a charge light.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2015, 06:53:18 AM »
In the process I also bolted all the bits of  bodywork back, having first thumped some with a BFH to give a semblance of being straight. This allowed me to fit the new seat and return the mended air filter housing to it's rightful place
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline awemawson

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Re: Thwaites 2 Ton Two Cylinder Dumper Running On One Cylinder
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2015, 07:01:55 AM »
So now to the brake master cylinder, which is jammed absolutely solid. So I pulled up the floor to expose it for removal

It's made by 'Frenos Iruna' of Spain, and quite a bit of searching failed to produce a repair kit for it. Apparently there were two sources for master cylinders for this digger and mine happened to have the obscure one rather than a Girling  :(

Little choice really but to buy a replacement - ordered one an Saturday and it's supposed to be delivered today, but hasn't turned up so far - at least though I managed to fit the alternator.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex