Author Topic: WTF wallet attack !!  (Read 10649 times)

Offline PK

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2016, 02:41:31 AM »
I think this group is ahead of the pack here, mostly because we all have some level of understanding of what goes into making something. Even if we subsequently accept the asking price as being fair for whatever reasons, some things initially stand out as incongruously expensive at first glance.
This is much less an issue for most consumers.
I've come across a lot of evidence supporting this as we have gone down the path of renovating our kitchen.

Sites like alibaba expose the channel distribution model for what it (mostly) is, and we are entering into a new age of global direct selling.

 At least I hope we are because I just sacked our US distributor and am just about to add a 'buy it now' button to our website...

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2016, 02:44:15 AM »
Bit limited at the moment as I'm out the country, just popped over to Luxembourg to look at a vintage racing bike. I can post when I get back.
However let me say that the Chinese one is the original and any clone or copy will be the USA one. What will have happened is that lumps will be sourced from China to be finished in the US. No matter what explanation is forthcoming for the pricing, with the Tempest it's possible to buy on off the shelf mini VMC like the Haas TM1 for less money.
John Stevenson

Offline Jasonb

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2016, 05:12:41 AM »
I would not under estimate the amount of work that goes into designing the bed wipers even if reverse engineered.

I was asked to draw some up at the end of last year and given some 2D drawings taken from originals. I think we ended up at revision F by the time they worked as hoped after tweaks to the 3D design. Each design was printed, fitted to the machine and tested then revisions made to the model before going through the same proceedure. And don't forget you need two designs, one for the flat part and one for the Vee

So take my time drawing, somebody printing, cost of trying a couple of different fillaments, fitting to machine, testing, removing, etc. That lot adds up to quite a bit of time and money which on a low volume item will push teh price up.

J

PS John it does come in a nice looking cabinet :thumbup:

Offline tom osselton

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2016, 05:02:37 PM »
I think it just boils down to what resources are available to the buyer and how busy they are. I wouldn't buy the wiper its basically just flat plate while the 3d parts are more complexed it can justify the cost.

Offline Will_D

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2016, 06:33:33 PM »
When it comes to the cost of making things:

When I worked in southern Germany there was Lidl and I think a similar chain called Norma.

One week the had 4 1/2" Angle grinders on sale for 9.99

I disn't want an angle grinder that day - what I wanted were some brown paper bio bags for the kitchen waste bin in the apartment. You HAD to to use these or the Bio Police would be onto you.

So questions 1:

If a working, gauranteed grinder costs a tenner then how much for brown paper bags?

WRONG!! Fot 3 packs of bags (3 * 10) it was more than 10 !!

Explanations please!

On a similar (personnal) vein:

Why are hearing aids so effin expensive??

A mobile smart phone is crammed full of silicon and software and costs say 700. A pair of hearing aids are very small and full of silicon and software so why do I pay 2800??

And they are the unbranded ones!! Branded names like Siemens just add another 1k!!
Engineer and Chemist to the NHC.ie
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/

Offline John Swift

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2016, 06:44:26 PM »
I guess its supply and demand

since you had to use the bio bags the will be in high demand  so they have you over a barrel

same with the hearing aid I don't think you have many options where to buy them and you need it

   John


Offline PK

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2016, 07:15:02 PM »
This relates back to an earlier post about business fundamentals.
As a consumer you hear terms like, profit margin, and markup. These are all expressed as a percentage of some input cost.
eg, Gary the green groces buys apples at $1/kg. marks them up 30% sells them at $1.30 and makes 15% profit.

This is a myth. Any business that's still operating after 10 years prices their products relative to what everyone else is charging. Input costs don't even come into it unless you are making a loss (which someone is on a $15 grinder). 
If frank is selling apples at $2.50 a kg then Gary is an idiot if he charges $1.30 its not ethics, it's survival.

The other aspect is that people underestimate retail margins.  A non global, bricks and mortar retailer needs to put on 400-1000% to make a net profit of 10-20%. Like I said though, they don't think that way.  McDonalds are awesome at pricing, try tracking the price of one item over a year, it'll go up and down (but mostly up), they'll have specials on other items to distract you from price rises, add new products just to change the anchor point etc. its impressive to watch..

In my industry (electronics) the rule of thumb is that you need to be able to retail at 500% of your manufacturing cost to have a viable product. Its one of the things that drives innovation in consumer electronics. You can only really charge a lot when you have the newest or the best widget,

You can see why the channel model withers in the face of factory drop ship retailers like bangood.

Offline hermetic

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2016, 11:23:37 AM »
The problem I had with the bed wipers was that although they fit the bolt holes, they do not actually wipe the bed, and did not fit to the V way either. I have a Mk1 roundhead Colchester Student, which had 3 wipers missing anyway. the one that was there had a felt insert inside a folded or pressed steel enclosure. I solved the problem by super gluing some thin felt to the bottom of the plastic wipers, which are now ok, but they could be better. Still have very little faith in 3d printing!

Offline Jasonb

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2016, 11:56:56 AM »
Now if you had wipers that were printed in something more flexible and actually contacted the bed like a windscreen wiper blade, made to allow for deflection when up against the vee, etc then they would work without felt but you would have to pay for the cost of the extra developement that I mentioned earlier.

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2016, 06:10:29 PM »
When it comes to the cost of making things:

When I worked in southern Germany there was Lidl and I think a similar chain called Norma.

One week the had 4 1/2" Angle grinders on sale for 9.99

I disn't want an angle grinder that day - what I wanted were some brown paper bio bags for the kitchen waste bin in the apartment. You HAD to to use these or the Bio Police would be onto you.

So questions 1:

If a working, gauranteed grinder costs a tenner then how much for brown paper bags?

WRONG!! Fot 3 packs of bags (3 * 10) it was more than 10 !!

Explanations please!

On a similar (personnal) vein:

Why are hearing aids so effin expensive??

A mobile smart phone is crammed full of silicon and software and costs say 700. A pair of hearing aids are very small and full of silicon and software so why do I pay 2800??

And they are the unbranded ones!! Branded names like Siemens just add another 1k!!

I think that you are probably talking up Aldi Sud and Hofer but be that as it may, you were talking about a grinder which cost 10Euros and this has tripped its way from -say- HK docks in a container and has travelled the equivalent of 12 hours in air miles at Mach .85 which is a helluva long way and to get to the till it has attracted a sales tax.-say 20%.

In other words, some Chinese bloke is paying to come to a factory- make it and has to scrat around for a bowl of imported rice.

This, my friend is a or was a loss leader. Herr Grubby Hof sold you below cost so that you would buy your schinken whatsits or then and in the future. Perfectly normal sales tactics but as a single item- a BIG Nein.

What you did - and I have done have advertised Lidl and Aldi Sud and Hofer and Southern Germany- for free.

Danke! you fell for it.

Prosit

Norman


Offline John Stevenson

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2016, 12:53:03 AM »
When these opportunities come up then play th at their own game. Last time the 9.99 gringers came up, made in Holland BTW, I decided that these were consumables and a new Bosch would be about 100 so bought ten of them and still running off stock. Funnily enough they have never repeated the offer around here again.
John Stevenson

Offline nrml

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2016, 05:35:46 PM »
The problem I had with the bed wipers was that although they fit the bolt holes, they do not actually wipe the bed, and did not fit to the V way either. I have a Mk1 roundhead Colchester Student, which had 3 wipers missing anyway. the one that was there had a felt insert inside a folded or pressed steel enclosure. I solved the problem by super gluing some thin felt to the bottom of the plastic wipers, which are now ok, but they could be better. Still have very little faith in 3d printing!

I would recommend cutting them out of nitrile rubber (4-5mm sheet works well) and using a hole punch to  make the mounting holes. Mine seem to be holding up well so far and work very very well. Even if they wear out I still have enough left from a 1.85 sheet to make another 4 or 5 complete sets.

Offline wagnmkr

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2016, 04:36:33 PM »
This is an interesting thread. It certainly shows the different attitudes that prevail in our hobby. I am not disagreeing with anyone at all.

As far as the cost of 3d printing goes ... I have had one for a couple of months and I am nearing the 200 or so hours on it. It took near enough to two weeks to get it dialed in to the point where I can start a print, and leave it to it, allowing me to work on the mill or lathe, or go for a swim.

My friend owns a pet store that specializes in aquariums and reptiles. You guessed it ... soon as he heard I had a printer, He wanted stuff printed. Simple things like little perforated trays for starting plants on. Nothing to it, right! First prototype drawn up and printed ... 2 hours. Not quite right so revise the drawing and reprint. Better, but no cigar, even though it was exactly what he asked for. Third iteration of said shelf ... perfect, but not quite good enough quality, so I reduced the extrusion thickness ...

The long and short of it is that he can get what he needs from regular distributor for $1.50 and wants to cut that cost. He wanted to pay me $1.00 each and he wanted 100 at a time. My printer will do 9 at once at the size he wants, but at the quality he wants, that takes 4 1/2 hours per 9! Do the math and I would be printing for a long time to fill the order. I politely declined the business, gave him the samples that I made, and decided that a commercial venture as a 3d printing firm is not on my cards.

In my humble opinion, the fellow doing the wipers was losing money.

Tom

Offline tom osselton

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2016, 01:54:41 PM »
Have you thought of a vacumformer this one I am building will live at protospace for the maker comunity.

Offline PK

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2016, 06:43:36 PM »
OK, so given the meandering nature of this thread, it seem utterly appropriate to start talking about Vac formers.
Here's one I prepared earlier. 
Built our 'usual' way, from laser cut steel, tacked together. 
It has a pneumatic ram pushing up the plenum table.

Vac forming is one of those rare process' that seems to be tolerant of a wide range of operating conditions. Whilst we definitely got better at it over time, we sold the very first part we pulled on this machine.


Offline PekkaNF

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2016, 02:28:09 AM »
Very nice thread...I am agreeing pretty much with everybody too.

OT: Vac forming....One guy I know made a very modest production line to produde dome shaped lamp shades....they found out that domes come a little unbalanced out. When you hang them, they tilt and some procentage of people see it....therefore they cut and finished the rim first and then found the centre (where it hangs straight) and drilled the hole for light fixture....who would have quessed.

Pekka

* Fixed typos
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 03:57:10 AM by PekkaNF »

Offline tom osselton

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2016, 03:14:30 AM »
I just finished mine tonight although I'll have to mod the slides a bit I'm thinking the arms that are fixed above the tray are flexing inwards when lifted I've picked up some small bearings to keep it true.

Offline PK

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2016, 03:47:34 AM »
One guy I know made a very modest production line to produce dome shaped lamp shades....they found out that domes come a little unbalanced out, when you hang them, they tilt and some procentage of people see it....therefore they cut and finished the rim firs and then found the centre and drilled the hole for light fixture....who would have quessed.
Interesting...
Cutting out is certainly the tricky bit if you are making lots of parts. We laid up some glass (as if we were taking a mould) over the part, then used that as a vacuum fixture to hold it upside down in the CNC router which milled the part out of the sheet.

Offline PK

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #43 on: September 10, 2016, 03:50:02 AM »
I just finished mine tonight although I'll have to mod the slides a bit I'm thinking the arms that are fixed above the tray are flexing inwards when lifted I've picked up some small bearings to keep it true.

I reckon you did a pretty good job of it.  What are you using for heating elements?  We cut up some toasted sandwich makers, but they didn't heat by direct IR.  Good because we got uniform heating, bad because we had a 10 minute cycle time on 2mm ABS....
PK

Offline tom osselton

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #44 on: September 10, 2016, 06:09:56 PM »
I found this at a tool store from a school art dept.
It does take a bit to heat up so am hoping to have a preheat then full power with arduino you can see the vacum behind it.
Heres a pic of it finished. I'd type more but the battery is beeping! :beer:

Offline tom osselton

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2016, 04:56:49 PM »
Well we did a test last night to see how the heat distributes seeing as how the heater does not  go to the edges. I even picked up some tinfoil on a second attempt ( using the same piece ) that helped but still not enough it looks like I will have to put some nichrome wire around the edges!
Any thoughts?

Offline PK

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2016, 05:48:50 PM »
Or forced air circulation.

Offline tom osselton

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2016, 03:03:06 PM »
I was thinking that too a chamber to heat distributed by recirculating fans. I was also thinking about winding nicrome wire on the lathe amd making a custom heater.