Author Topic: WTF wallet attack !!  (Read 10495 times)

Offline John Stevenson

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WTF wallet attack !!
« on: August 27, 2016, 07:48:23 AM »
http://www.element-cnc.com/cyclone

$22,500 for a Syil crappy CNC with a Mach screen on it ????

For $7K more you can get a Haas TM1 or two Tormach's and change.

Anyone local able to pop round and see what they are smoking because I need some bad.
John Stevenson

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2016, 09:49:53 AM »
The extra $$$$ is for the paint job and "special version of Element Machine Tools' Carbon CNC control "

lol.
Science is fun.

We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline Joules

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2016, 10:18:59 AM »
That screen is just asking for getting clonked...
Just get doing and make swarf, you can decide what its going to be later.   :thumbup:

Offline AdeV

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2016, 05:02:13 PM »
That vice stop has to be worth $1000 all by itself  :lol:
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2016, 05:24:35 PM »
John Stevenson

Offline chipenter

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2016, 02:29:56 AM »
What would they charge if they converted a Deckel FP ?
Jeff

Offline nrml

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2016, 04:29:35 PM »
Just to give them the benefit of doubt, they might be out of stock and have put ridiculously high prices to stop people ordering online without contacting them before hand. Several vendors do this to avoid having to take down a listing; for example 922 for a Dickson T1 tool holder http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371551492707?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I do agree that some vendors live in cloud cuckoo land. I nearly spilt my pint the other day when I saw this listing http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Colchester-lathe-Bed-Way-Wipers-For-Chipmaster-and-Bantam-Mk1-2-/252509986285?hash=item3acac49ded:g:-IoAAOSw-RRXCANw.
15 for 4 minuscule bits of 3d printed plastic :jaw: - and they don't even include a pair for the tailstock. What is the profit margin on that? If ebay is not joking, two idiots actually paid for and bought this :bugeye:

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2016, 05:36:08 PM »
15 for 4 so 3.75 each.
Now take filament into account and wear and tear on possibly a 700, shipping and what you you sell something that is out of production for ??

Possibly they don't sell a set for the tailstock as they were never fitted.
John Stevenson

Offline awemawson

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2016, 03:07:06 AM »
I agree with John. 15 is very reasonable in my view. The chap does a set suitable for my Colchester
Master 2500 for the same price and I may well get a set - thanks for posting the link  :thumbup:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline RobWilson

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2016, 03:31:00 AM »


I do agree that some vendors live in cloud cuckoo land. I nearly spilt my pint the other day when I saw this listing http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Colchester-lathe-Bed-Way-Wipers-For-Chipmaster-and-Bantam-Mk1-2-/252509986285?hash=item3acac49ded:g:-IoAAOSw-RRXCANw.
15 for 4 minuscule bits of 3d printed plastic :jaw: - and they don't even include a pair for the tailstock. What is the profit margin on that? If ebay is not joking, two idiots actually paid for and bought this :bugeye:.

Hi nrml

Just out of curiosity how much would/could you make a set for ? 

Rob

Offline nrml

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2016, 04:38:26 AM »
A roll of average quality ABS filament costs between 10 to 20 depending on where you buy it from.  The size and thickness of the parts are not big by any description so filament consumption and print times will be minimal compared to the average print. The parts are not very complex and the fit not absolutely critical. Besides, it is a direct copy of the OEM design so cost of design is not a significant factor. Even a completely non technical noob like me can draw that up in one of the freebie design programs from measurements in not too much time.

I would very conservatively estimate that you could get more than 50 sets out of a reel of filament even after practice prints (100 - 200 would probably be more likely). This would more than cover the cost of a kit printer, filament and postage even before the reel is finished. At the end of the day, things are worth what people are prepared to pay for them. Some might feel that it is a reasonable cost but for me, it is way overpriced. I am one of those who would rather buy something rather than make it if I felt it was close to a reasonable price because I quite often can't be bothered to make the effort, but not in this case.

I cut mine out of a 4mm nitrile rubber sheet with a stanley knife. The rubber sheet (125mm X 125mm) cost me 1.86 including postage and I have enough left to make another 4 complete sets of wipers should I need it in future. It took me about 10-15 min to make and fit them. My 3D printer is packed away at the moment, so printing it was not an option. Also, I felt rubber would work better than ABS. The original wipers were made of a hard rubber

I don't know about Colchesters, but Harrison M250s definitely come with tail-stock way wipers.

Offline Joules

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2016, 05:00:56 AM »
nrml, cost of filament has nothing to do with cost of final item, it is minimal.  However the time and effort invested in proper CAD and software then the 3D printer can be huge.  Driving one accurately is not just press a button and leave it.   I show a lot of prints I do for myself, however if you paid my rate they are expensive items. I am sure others who have seen my work would testify it isn't like the normal stuff you see coming off a cheap printer.  3D printing shouldn't be confused with injection moulding.  Speaking of which price up a mould for producing, say a few hundred items, 3D printing wins hands down.  No moulds, no associated costs.

I think the cost is reasonable it you don't begrudge them some profit.
Just get doing and make swarf, you can decide what its going to be later.   :thumbup:

Offline awemawson

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2016, 05:48:07 AM »
If you do a proper cost analysis on making almost anything it get quite scary - don't forget it is a completely different game being in business rather than enjoying a hobby. For the business scenario (which is where the fellow on ebay is) you have to consider:

a/Premises - ok it may be his back bedroom but it comes at a cost.

b/Equipment - he may have bought it as a hobby, but now it's a business so capital cost is relevant

c/Materials - as NRML says fairly minimal in this case

d/Selling Costs - ebay fees, paypal fees, postage.

e/Time - someone has to order the filament, set the machine going, keep an eye on it, unload parts, pack them, handle the eBay and Paypal transactions and take them to the Post Office.

I very much doubt he is even making minimum wage doing this, and that is the case in an awful lot of small / one man band businesses where the proprietor works long into the evening making product and doing paperwork, rarely truly taking his time into consideration. Almost certainly he'd make more stacking shelves in Tesco's  :med:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Joules

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2016, 06:00:27 AM »
YES    :(
Just get doing and make swarf, you can decide what its going to be later.   :thumbup:

Offline AdeV

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2016, 07:29:59 PM »
d/Selling Costs - ebay fees, paypal fees, postage.

In my experience, this is the part that everyone fails to take into account.

For starters, every item sold at 15 = 1.50 to eBay (=13.50 left).

I've no idea what the material costs or the running costs of the printer are, or what (if any) fettling and other work is required; but even if you were to say it was 15 minutes per set of 4 pieces, at 10/hr (which is way undervalued IMO) that's 2.50 in time, so 11.00 left. Let's guess at 1 for material and electricity costs, so 10 left. We'll assume he's got the printer set up in his kitchen, so will waive any property costs.

Postage is built into the price, and judging purely by the pictures, I don't think he's going to get that into an envelope; so the small parcel rate will be charged. That's 2.85; let's allow him 15p for packing materials (3) and assume he lives within easy walking distance of a post box (15 min round trip @ 10/hr is a rather convenient 2.50), so 5.50 on P&P

That leaves just 4.50 "profit", of which HMRC is going to stiff you for around 20% of that in tax. I'm assuming the guy isn't VAT registered (if he is, take 2.50 off the price before we even get started), so another 90p gone, so the final profit (excluding anything I might have forgotten, and excluding any consideration for the time it took to program the printer, feed it the filament, etc.) is just 3.60 per set.

Obviously, economies of scale could increase that profit (I'm assuming he has to make the trip to the post box for every item sold; of course, if he sold 100 of them, then the cost of getting to the post box reduces to 2.5p per unit instead of 2.50), but since he's only sold 2... I reckon he's probably going in too cheap at 3.60 profit.


Costs are a bitch, and outside of running a business, almost no-one seems to understand them. Yet they rack up pretty sharpish, especially on low volume stuff.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline gerritv

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2016, 09:03:36 PM »
We lose money on every sale but make up for it in volume.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 10:22:53 PM by gerritv »

Offline gerritv

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2016, 09:22:05 PM »
It gets better.

http://www.element-cnc.com/torrent
You are paying for Made in U.S.A. quality so well worth the price. Part of the Make America Great Again movement. Because machinery made anywhere else is c..p according to some. http://madmodder.net/Smileys/default/kaffeetrinker_2.gif

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2016, 10:49:03 PM »
I question the made in USA after someone on another forum sent me a link to a near identical machine on Aliexpress for $6K.  It is rather a distinctive frame design. 
John Stevenson

Offline AdeV

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2016, 04:54:47 AM »
I question the made in USA after someone on another forum sent me a link to a near identical machine on Aliexpress for $6K.  It is rather a distinctive frame design. 

Chinese clone? They've shown plenty of willing in the past to make straight copies of other machines.

Either that, or they're getting around any "Made in the USA" rules by (for example) assembling the machine from parts in the US; plenty of European companies do that to get a "Made in [EU country]" tag, even though it was just a kit of parts made in China.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline mattinker

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2016, 06:43:55 AM »
We lose money on every sale but make up for it in volume.

If you loose money on every sale, you can't make up for it in volume, loosing money is by definition loosing money!

Regards, Matthew

Offline gerritv

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2016, 07:18:13 AM »
We lose money on every sale but make up for it in volume.

If you loose money on every sale, you can't make up for it in volume, loosing money is by definition loosing money!

Regards, Matthew
I guess you don't see the joke :-) : http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/we_lose_money_on_every_sale_but_make_it_up_on_volume/

Offline mattinker

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2016, 08:00:45 AM »
We lose money on every sale but make up for it in volume.

If you loose money on every sale, you can't make up for it in volume, loosing money is by definition loosing money!

Regards, Matthew
I guess you don't see the joke :-) : http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/we_lose_money_on_every_sale_but_make_it_up_on_volume/

Unlike the spoken word where you have context, if you write something without any indication that it is tongue in check, It doesn't come across as a joke!! I cannot know, where your at!

All trhe best, Matthew

Online tom osselton

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2016, 02:06:24 PM »
Still shipping is extra or you could find a Makerspace or design one made online like  http://www.shapeways.com/  has 50 different materials to choose from.  I have seen some of their metalprinting and was impressed.

Offline nrml

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2016, 06:30:54 PM »
I don't want to start an argument here but from my perspective as a consumer I would expect the cost of an item to be proportional to the effort required to create it, test it and the cost of actually producing it. Of course postage , advertising costs and a reasonable profit margin to make it worthwhile are to be included in the final price of the item.

 I feel that something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kossel-Mini-Plastic-Printed-Parts-for-RepRap-Rostock-Delta-3D-Printer-PLA-Red-/161747713780?hash=item25a8ea3ef4:g:roQAAOSwLVZVkDGd is underpriced. I would quite happily pay a lot more than the seller is asking if I was looking at buying an item of that description. By the same yard stick, to me the wipers are overpriced for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Obviously others have different opinions.

I am not a business person so I might be wrong here. If I was investing in a 3d printer and premium CAD / Slicing software, I wouldn't have this as my main product on which to regain my investment and make a living on. I'd be offering an array of products and services and this would be a minor sideline (probably a commercial spin off a favour done for a friend). In which case I'd price it accordingly as I wouldn't have spent huge amounts of time or effort developing the product.

I am not expecting him / her to almost give it away for free but compared to the complexity of design and printing time required for most other 3d printed parts sold online, this seems disproportionately expensive. Just my 2 cents worth. No intentions of opening up a prolonged debate.

Offline efrench

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Re: WTF wallet attack !!
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2016, 12:43:17 AM »
I don't want to start an argument here but from my perspective as a consumer I would expect the cost of an item to be proportional to the effort required to create it, test it and the cost of actually producing it. Of course postage , advertising costs and a reasonable profit margin to make it worthwhile are to be included in the final price of the item.

 I feel that something like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kossel-Mini-Plastic-Printed-Parts-for-RepRap-Rostock-Delta-3D-Printer-PLA-Red-/161747713780?hash=item25a8ea3ef4:g:roQAAOSwLVZVkDGd is underpriced. I would quite happily pay a lot more than the seller is asking if I was looking at buying an item of that description. By the same yard stick, to me the wipers are overpriced for the reasons I mentioned earlier. Obviously others have different opinions.

I am not a business person so I might be wrong here. If I was investing in a 3d printer and premium CAD / Slicing software, I wouldn't have this as my main product on which to regain my investment and make a living on. I'd be offering an array of products and services and this would be a minor sideline (probably a commercial spin off a favour done for a friend). In which case I'd price it accordingly as I wouldn't have spent huge amounts of time or effort developing the product.

I am not expecting him / her to almost give it away for free but compared to the complexity of design and printing time required for most other 3d printed parts sold online, this seems disproportionately expensive. Just my 2 cents worth. No intentions of opening up a prolonged debate.

The kossel mini parts are all opensource, so the person printing them has no investment in time or money, just material and printer time.  The 3d printer forums are filled with reports of poorly printed parts for delta printers, so one should be wary of very cheap ones (and expensive ones to :) )The way wipers were most likely reverse engineered, modeled, and sliced by the seller, so would have more time invested in the product.

John: Do you have a link to the $6000 machine.  I didn't see anything on Aliexpress at that price.