Author Topic: Drill Doctor  (Read 6211 times)

Offline RobWilson

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2016, 12:34:05 PM »


When I say he uses a diamond dremel cut of disc,he is using the cheek of the disc rather than the edge.....OZ.

Hi OZ

I thought as much  :thumbup: , I think I may have a few of those wee Dremel tool disc's some where .  :dremel:


Rob 

Offline howsitwork?

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2016, 03:50:31 PM »
rob

I too thought the cost  compared to a load of drills but then broke a specific drill, later at night, all suppliers closed etc, etc. Three days cursing and a trip to suppliers later...

For the ease of being able to say "fixed it" it was worth the cost. Plus it was a" a lovely reminder of our holiday my love" rather than the usual holiday tat ! :beer:

Devious - who me??? :thumbup:

Only you can make that decision, I've no regrets  ( apart from not getting the larger collet obviously).

Ian


Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2016, 02:57:15 PM »
Uuh...ordered 750 model from Amazon, "free delivery" my ass, delivery + all other expences added up 60 real money over that 139$ price tag.

Got it and first looks is a bit disapointing....looks chinese made, lot of critical parts are plastic etc. but have to try it out to see how it performs.

http://screwdrivers.viabloga.com/news/drill-doctor-internal-mechanism-220v-convertion
Looks like a cheap DC motor and rectifier.

MFG is coming at it at a little obtuse angle, looks like marketing talk to me.
http://www.drilldoctor.com/faq
I live outside North America - can I use my Work Sharp Sharpener with an adapter?

A transformer (not a complete power supply), plugged into single phase 230v, can drop the voltage to the 115v range, but doesn’t account for the difference from US frequency at 60 Hz and Internationally at 50 Hz and may not regulate the voltage or provide sufficient amperage well depending on the quality of the device. Running on 50 Hz puts a greater strain on the motor, so while the correct voltage may be supplied to the unit, the frequency isn’t correct to get full performance (reduced power = lower efficiency = extra heat = destroyed unit). The voltage may also not be precise, out of a transformer and the 115v motors are designed to run in a specific range. High or low voltage will likely cause failures.

I did dig up my old 220/115 VAC tranny, but it spits out a bit too much voltage and it is that old that I'm going to retire it, checked it inside and the euro-plug is bit funny, insulation would not pass moderns standards etc....Don't like.

Expecteng it to perform impecably, marketing is that massive that if ti produces nothing less than perfectly sharpened drills in seconds I'll be very disapointed.

Pekka

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2016, 03:58:19 PM »
Pekka,

What I do is to be very careful when "aligning" the bit with the "snap down leaves."  Getting that wrong can easily destroy your bit!  I place the "bit" in the "chuck" so that it is a "slip fit loose."  Then, retracting the "leaves," insert the "chuck" and bit into the "alignment guide" and release the "leaves" -- and (light finger pressure) twist the bit to make sure that the "leaves" have a good hold on the bit.  Then I tighten the "chuck" (with finger pressure to mate the tip of the bit to the metal "depth setter").

With that as "care," everything seems to work out fine.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2016, 05:25:18 AM »
Thank you Lew,

I will get 230/115 VAC transformer tomorow (If we can me schedules co incidence after the work).

I did try 14 mm and 6,5 mm OD drill chucking and alignind to it. I have 750 model.

1) There is stop screw (MTO!) I adjusted it all in - minimum material removal...that looks like it affects on the aligment too....

2) Is the aligment mechanism designed to work with old fashion drills with complete heel? Most of my drills have the heel pretty much cut out.


Question: How much interaction this "aligment" and depthing adjustment (MTO) have interaction? Is it relevat to sharpening?

Probbaly just have to try out some less worn out drills and just to polish a minimum amount to see how does it conforms with original drill's sharpening.

Thnak you,
Pekka

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2016, 11:52:03 AM »
Pekka,

1) My Drill Doctor is more than a decade old.  I would have to go look to tell you what model number it is.

2) Your photograph PC113969c.jpg shows the "leaves" I refer to.  It appears in your photograph that there is some adjustment in the "stop" in your machine.  I would be very careful about "playing" with that.  [Opinion.]

3) The "heel issue" is why I emphasize setting the "leaves" to contact the flute just "above" the cutting lip.

Does that help?

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2016, 01:54:01 PM »
Thank you,

I think that I have enough information to try it out when I'll get the transformer.

2. Yes that is an adjustement that is used to adjust depth of grinding. Darex calls it Material Take Off. Basically it is a stop that limits drill bit extension. larger extension = More material removed. I think it will have effect on that "leaves" aligment too. To what extent I don't know.

On trainig video has a basic setup (something like all in and then "three" something out....it can't be rounds, the whole adjustment span is not three rounds. The bolt end is stationary and there is knob (nut) on the other side.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2016, 12:31:51 PM »
OK, I have done some testing and so far I am not impressed. I have tested only a little bit and only resorted to the instructions that came with it. I don't claim expertice on drill sharpening. I just use a lot off drills. Sales pitch makes it sound like it works straigh out of box and using it does not need any fiddling.

I started with good drills that were only slight battle damage:
* 4,0 mm stub drill (for pop rivets)
* 6,0 mm very traditional drill, but fully ground.
* 6,5 mm drill with larger than normal space for swarf and really easy drilling, needs very little force.

It is not easy to develop good feel with it. Maybe 100 drills later I can produce near acceptable results with it? I geel like it needs a special touch... First drill came out awfully facetted, if held softly the plastic drill holder wibrates in plastic cradle and even when shape looks nearly acceptable it looks horrible under magnifying lense and cuts unevenly.

Yes, it can salvage drills - sort off,
* that sort of geometry is ground that drill cuts metal, but chissel end pushes metal.
*  I haven't foud out a usefull way to thin the chissel end. It sort of works, but not really.
* Grinding wheel leaves very coarse finnish
* Plastic parts and weak construction leads vibration/faceting/bad accuracy.

I'm putting here some pictures of the 4 mm drill that I felt was partial success. Compared to original sharpening the drill doctor left it worse on these points:
* needs much more force to push, web is thick, thinning does nothing on this small size
* Coarse finnish, burr, probably edge does not last too long

See picture PC183991_4mm how it should be and rest how it comes out of drill doctor

Offline ieezitin

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2016, 06:26:01 PM »
Pekka

You are not going to achieve sharpening that 4mm drill its too small for the machine,  the 6mm is about its limit for a half decent grind, these machines don't really work the process is inherently flawed.

For small or large size drills to be sharpened you either need to throw $1500 minimum for a Deckel or equivalent or learn to do it by hand its not hard, or make a tool grinder.

Anthony.
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2016, 08:27:16 PM »
Jees! the drills in the photos do show very poor grinding profile and finish. Pekka,are you using a carborundum wheel,or the diamond coated one?

I can honestly say I have never had any drills come out looking that rough with the Drill Doctor I have on loan.

If I get a few minutes spare later today I will pull it out of the box and try a couple of grinds on 4 and 6 mm drills and see how it turns out compared to the ones you have shown......OZ.
Helixes aren't always downward spirals,sometimes they're screwed up

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2016, 12:14:44 AM »
It is a brand new "diamond" wheel they say. And it should be the "fine" wheel, option is "coarse".

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2016, 03:15:27 AM »
I really need some advice/feedback. I have sharpened some drills long time ago manually and concluded that the drills cut, but hard to get cutting edges really symmetrical. I appreciate that drill sharpening is bit complex and involved, but it can be done and drill doctor promises that.

Pekka

You are not going to achieve sharpening that 4mm drill its too small for the machine,  the 6mm is about its limit for a half decent grind, these machines don't really work the process is inherently flawed.

For small or large size drills to be sharpened you either need to throw $1500 minimum for a Deckel or equivalent or learn to do it by hand its not hard, or make a tool grinder.

Anthony.

An nevertheless, advertisement says "Drill Doctor 750X , sharpens 2.5-19 mm drill bits with custom point angle between 118° and 135°".


Jees! the drills in the photos do show very poor grinding profile and finish. Pekka,are you using a carborundum wheel,or the diamond coated one?

I can honestly say I have never had any drills come out looking that rough with the Drill Doctor I have on loan.

If I get a few minutes spare later today I will pull it out of the box and try a couple of grinds on 4 and 6 mm drills and see how it turns out compared to the ones you have shown......OZ.

I think that the grinding wheel has some bigger diamond particles here and there, that's why the finish is coarse. I tried to adjust it to grind bare minimum, but the "leaves" that center the drill don't work well on very small protrusion. I'm also grinding very slowly.

I wonder if the wheel is also a little off center, because first few tries produced multifaceted grind and could feel how it was vibrating. Impossible to get any good edge without using two hands to move the collet slowly and steady.

I wonder if it improves or gets worse when used a bit more? The main sharpening port feels a little shady. The tip splitting port is really tight. First I was thinkkint that I'm doing something wrong when i pushed the collet forward and nothing happened. Then I checked everything and because it looks like it should work I tried with a bit more force and then it did ground the bit (funny split....but least some thinning) and then the collet was stuck :Doh:

I'm not excluding here an operator lack of skill, but it appears like it could be tinkered to sharpen dozen identical drills, but a box of different shape and size drills is hardly worth of the hassle.



Pekka

Offline Roger B

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2016, 04:04:54 AM »
Has anyone tried the Proxxon drill sharpener? I looked at one a while ago but at the time thought that the cost ~200 would buy a lot of drill bits.
Best regards

Roger

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2016, 01:09:40 PM »
Saw the proxon once and it feels like a toy. I did not like it.

On HMS only way I can rationale drill sharpener is that it can sharpen most drill sizes and designs one off when you have chipped the last fraction size drill and want to sharpen it without too much distraction.

That what I was expecting from rom drill doctor. But it looks like it drill doctor falls shor of my expectations.

What I really would like to is to lap the the drill right at the first trouble. To restore sharpness before any real trouble.

First picture is of drills 10 mm and smaller. These are past prime, but drill doctor would leave then more dull than they are now. Bugger.

I was trying some more with very old fashion and cheap drill design that does not cut well even straigh out of box. Standard setting as on the guide did not produce cutting edge. Bit more cutting angle (two notches back (+) at the initial setting changes cutting angle closer, but the chisel angle looks bit funny.

Last picture is 10 mm drill bit after drill doctor and 9,5 mm similar stock drill.

How can I make this drill doctor work or are they sopposed to be really this bad?

Pekka

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2016, 03:22:20 PM »
Pekka -- I have never seen such a chewed up tip on any bit going through my Drill DoctorMy 2 cents worth of observation is that either (A) you got shipped a unit that should have been rejected, or (B) your unit was damaged in transit.  As I have said, my unit is more than a decade old.  The only "issue" I have with it is getting the "leaves" to align the bit properly -- something that counts more as "finicky."

According to their website, the e-mail address for them is info@darex.com -- I would send them a couple of your pictures and ask for "suggestions."  They used to be both knowledgeable and helpful (though it has been 5+ years since last I dealt with them).

Offline krv3000

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2016, 06:56:59 PM »
hi any one seen them yellow ones on eBay they use er20 collets go from 2mm to 13 mm   

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2016, 03:33:23 PM »
Lew: Thank you. I drop them a mail with pictures. Let's see. I would like to isolate the problem somewhere.

Now that I found really bad drill I can use to try out different techniques and see what is the holdup.

Pekka

* I actually got an answer from their technical support containing bit more information than the manual about relation of the Alignment of the drill/chuck vs. drill bit angle and helix. That I already had some glue, but the write-up was really nice and I will go trough it carefully.

* I get the radial chuck cam action, but i haven't got clear understanding how the chuck stops positive on "feed". The spark out feels not very exact. Maybe I just should more force, but I don't want to put too much flex on it. Or maybe it just needs that?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 03:01:52 AM by PekkaNF »

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2016, 07:49:29 AM »
Allright...we are getting somewhere

The instruction I got was sort of supplement to DD consumer instructions. It has the same step byt step instructions and some little extras that needs a little interpretation. Not sure if I got it all correctly, but I'm writing here my interpretation. Feel free to comment.

Things I reset and star all over:

1. Set the "depth" MTO to all out (max) and then three notches back. This seems to affect least as much on material removal than aligment.

2: On aligment por there is indexer (relief angle setting), marked at the middle 118....apparently this middle setting is actually used to compensate drill helix angle. The 118 point angle refers to normal helix angle on that size drills.

That needs an anticipation or experiment. The suplement says that if the angle between lip and chissel point is suposed to be 45 to 60 degrees. If it is larger turn notch (or two) positive clock vice at the alligment and vice versa.

3. Apparently I was pressing the drill down too gentle during sharpening, it really seems to need delibrate action.

So, this is about drill that cuts well, looks about right, but bore size is a bit over. 10,0 mm drill produces 10,1 - 10,2 mm oversize hole on GRP500 cast iron. Seems to cut also on lip more that the other one. Needs to check.

Some pictures here and bit more testing follws. Did sharpen the 4 mm and 6 mm drills with same setting and results.

Darex tech support was nice and helpfull. Thank you Lew.

Pekka

Offline mcostello

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2016, 09:57:31 AM »
Evidently I don't have the same model as You have but the blue color You are getting is detrimental to the life of the drill bit. Grind a bit slower, the drill is getting too hot.
High Speed steel in a Carbide world.

Offline awemawson

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2016, 10:14:10 AM »
I'd assumed that he'd painted it with layout blue to see better where the grind was  :scratch:
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Offline sparky961

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2016, 10:59:12 AM »
I'd assumed that he'd painted it with layout blue to see better where the grind was  :scratch:

Same assumption here.

The drill still looks pretty rough from what I've seen and used coming off a Drill Doctor.  Maybe I'm not considering the magnification factor of the picture correctly?

I'd advise you stick with it.  Keep trying to adjust this and that, both your technique and the settings on the machine.  Most people I've spoken with regarding the Drill Doctor will say that they do produce very good results but it takes some practice to get the right feel for using it.  I have been very close to purchasing one myself a few times, but the $200 CAD price tag is a bit of a deterrent.  Maybe some day when I'm in the right mood and its on sale.

Although I get very acceptable results sharpening by hand, there are times where I want a perfectly symmetrical drill and I find this difficult to achieve with any amount of speed and repeatability without some kind of device of fixture like this.  You should be able to eventually achieve that result with the Drill Doctor.

Your idea of bluing the tip (we're assuming) is good.  The way I check is to chuck up a small piece of aluminum in the lathe, very slow speed, and feed the drill at a moderate rate while watching how the chips curl away.  On a lathe, rather than a drill/mill, you can easily see how the chips are coming off the stationary bit and which cutting lip is taking more or less material.  With a bit of time and care you can adjust a drill but by hand to cut pretty darn close to perfect - but it takes a while going back and forth between the lathe and grinder/belt.  I think when you get good at it the Drill Doctor should be faster and produce better results.

I've been watching this thread to see where it takes you.

Offline John Rudd

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2016, 11:01:01 AM »
I'd assumed that he'd painted it with layout blue to see better where the grind was  :scratch:
Yup I agree, layout blue to see where its being ground.....the colour is too consistant for it to have been overheated.... There are no shades of blue or any other colour...( fifty shades of grey mebbe.... :lol:)
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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2016, 11:51:16 AM »
No fifty shades of blue...just used blue felt tip pen. Hard to see othervice under magnifuing glass the chissel point accurately.

The quality of sharppening has got better by two factors:
* New diamamond wheel seems to have some bigger particles in it and after about 15 sharpening trys the biggest ones are mostly gone now
* those pebels might have caused resonance....or I have learned to hold the drill chuck firmer, or both
* Those plastic parts are made for certain tolerances, it might be a little stiff at the begining.

I agree this needs a little bit more involvment. Drill doctor just might be cheap enough to buy, but not too cheap to be any serious use. Downside is that you must be pretty observant and know what adjustment to use. It is not just point and shoot.

I have been watching some videos and looks like most people are happy when drill cuts. I think that is not nearly enenough....drill has to cut to size and should keep the edge long.

More learning and practicing to do.

Pekka

Offline RobWilson

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2016, 12:26:59 PM »
All interesting reading lads.  :thumbup:

It looks like I may have the problem sorted,  :palm:   I went for an eye test today and I need specs for close up work, so specs on order, I should have them in 12 days  :borg: 

So hopefully I can just return to free hand sharpening  :dremel:


Rob

Offline appletree

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Re: Drill Doctor
« Reply #49 on: December 23, 2016, 02:20:27 PM »
Are they the 12 days of Christmas by any chance?