Author Topic: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts  (Read 1419 times)

Offline PekkaNF

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Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« on: March 04, 2017, 02:12:22 PM »
I have got outside threading tool + insert from RDG, not happy with insert. I have some better external/internal threading tools, but I don't know which inserts to buy.

I would like to stick 16ER and 16NR inserts, because there is pretty good selection for different thread profiles. But which brand and where? Big tamale would be selection of full profile metric threading inserts.

Annother thing is groovin inserts, specially internal grooving. This far I have used very happily Mesa tools stuff, but when I need precise width I need to grind the insert.

I have been considering MGMN inserts and bars for them, but three internal/external tool + inserts will add up in price and still I would be grinding the inserts.

I have three or four nearly unused SECO:n internal grooving bars, but only one isert for each. Can't find tha inserts for them. 16 mm internal groving bar has a ID of SNP0016M9 and the bit looks much like a CCMT09 insert, but it is more square and has a projection sticking out of it. The insert is nice to sharpen and modify. Just can't find them.

Very temped to go back to HSS, but they don't hold as well as inserts.

Suggestions?

Pekka

Offline seadog

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2017, 02:38:17 PM »
I use the same inserts and get them from Shop APT in Edinburgh. Not the cheapest around but I have no complaints.

Offline sparky961

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2017, 04:02:45 PM »
Grinding grooving inserts to width is something I commonly do professionally, so there's even less wrong with it for a hobby.  The thing with grooves is that you can make a wider groove with a narrow insert but not vice versa (duh!).  For a manual machine, this may require lots of time, patience, and sometimes "clenching" moments while you can't see the tool deep in a hole.  But with CNC I'll often purposely select a narrower tool and use multiple plunges to get the required width.  A huge advantage to this is that there is less of the cutting tool in contact with the work so the tendency to chatter is significantly reduced.  I've never seen the square style with the projection.  Most of what I use looks something like the following:



I use only two threading insert sizes at work, and have internal and external versions.  So far I've done everything from M6x1 up to ... actually, I'm not sure what the biggest might be.  I'll guess something like M42x2 maybe?  It's the pitch that's more important here than the diameter.  Most often the larger sizes I work with are finer pitches, so this helps reduce the max depth the insert will be cutting.  I've probably done 3mm pitch but can't remember a specific case.  The point of my rambling is that if you do away with the idea of  "full profile" insert, it is much more flexible.  The most useful thing I ever learned for threading was to religiously use Machinery's Handbook for thread data.  Run it as low as you can on the major diameter, and as high as you can on the pitch diameter - all within the allowable tolerances, and what works for your application.  Your threads will look and function much better and be easier to cut if you follow this advice.

Offline sparky961

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2017, 04:16:11 PM »
While we're on the topic (sort of), I have to say that for grooves that aren't too deep I absolutely love the Sandvik Corocut MB (Mini Bar).  The price is probably outside of the realm of hobby use, but if you want something that "just works, period", this is the ticket.



Lots of different inserts of various shapes are available.  though I'm actually surprised they don't list one for internal threading.

http://www.sandvik.coromant.com/en-gb/products/corocut_mb/Pages/default.aspx

Surely you'd get a discount from Sandvik for living in one of few neighbouring countries.... ;)

Offline Joules

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2017, 05:14:00 PM »
How are prices for the inserts ?   The bar looks like something that could be shop made.  Interesting idea for internal shaper tooling.
Just get doing and make swarf, you can decide what its going to be later.   :thumbup:

Offline sparky961

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2017, 06:47:48 PM »
I couldn't say off hand what the price is. Usually if you have ti ask, don't bother looking at Sandvik.  :smart:

Online chipenter

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2017, 04:07:32 AM »
I have the same incerts from RDG and recenty cut a 8 tpi thread to a sholder , and the bump behind the the cutting edge cut the last thread when I droped the half nutts , and then had to wipp the slide out at the same time as the the half nutts , I will be grinding that off before using it next time , there is on line catalogs to help find incerts for your holders .
Jeff

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2017, 05:43:49 AM »
Thank you all

Seadog, I'll give APT a try, I'll need to oreder some GTN2 parting of inserts as well.

Sparky, thank you very much. I agree completely what you say.

This SECO appeals ti me because I have two different size internal grooving bars and that insert model is nice on that account that single holder can handle inser widths from 1-3 mm (nearly). Internal retaining ring width is 1,0 mm from 12 - 23 mm hole nominal sizes and then 1,2 mm wide from 25 mm and up. Therefore two holders and two inserts would cater my needs pretty well. Inserts are bit more wide.

I'll check eBay if I can find the two smallest sizes and maybe two widest and then I would be pretty much set for intenal grooving. If I can't find inserts, I'll need to buy smallest MGMN insetrs and bar type you posted.

Threading a separate issue, I'll try different brand insers (partial profile as sugested) and see if it does the trick.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2017, 03:08:02 AM »
After few hours of googling, ebay, amazon etc. I managed to buy one pack of widest grooving inserts for this Seco bar...noticed that NA favors imperial designations and most of the times shipping is a killer....but found SECO Inserts (10 inserts) 9NR 103FG CP30...which means just the right one, but unfortunately they are coated, I prefer to grind noncoated.

Still trying to find few of the thinnest standard sizes, they actually might show up on reasonable price.

I have one american 60 degree threading shank and found 10 inserts for it. Looks like it is going to work on fine threads. Same 60 degree angle.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2017, 03:45:38 PM »
Damn-it! I have been trying to buy 2,0 or 2,5 mm wide parting off inserts and on Sunday I bought set from ebay...got them today. They were 3,0 mm wide. I have read description wrong: SANDVIK Coromant N151.2-300-4E Tungsten carbide...Do they fit on standard GTN3 size blade or do they need special Sandvik blade?

They are also a bit wide for my puny lathe.

Hope the internal grooving inserts are of correct size.

Pekka

Offline awemawson

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2017, 04:16:11 PM »
I think you need the specific Sandvik blade. I use the N151.2-200-4E and the GTN2 tips certainly don't fit  :med:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2017, 02:43:11 AM »
I think you need the specific Sandvik blade. I use the N151.2-200-4E and the GTN2 tips certainly don't fit  :med:

Thank you. I have ISCAR GTN2 shank and inserts. They fit together remarbly well, but ISCAR inser does not fit perfectly to cheap GTN blade and that cheap insert does not fit perfectly to iscar shank. Those are the standards.

I'll need to hunt down proper blade or shank. I see them reasonable price on ebay/amazon, but shipping etc. seems to double the price = no reasonable at all after that.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2017, 10:31:19 AM »
Harder than I though...looks like there are very many nearly identical looking parting off systems that are not compatible at all.

When in Sandvik T-Max Q-Cut-system...
I have N151.2-300-4E inserts and that seems to be pretty common size. However I can not find any reasonable size shank for it... RF151.23-1616-30M1 or 2020 would be ideal and 20 mm cutting max. dia is fine.

I could find a -250 series (for rare 2,5 mm wide inserts) a shank from local tool shop, but they have no inserts for it. pretty reasonable price, but inserts for that width are not that common

I could go for -200 series, but tried to google an hour and no shank/inserts at this side of the customs barrier.....

I'll probably end up going back to GTN-2 inserts, least I have one 20 mm shank for it and there are some supplies for the inserts.

I'm wondering how well (deep) 2 mm  MGMN 200 style inserts and MGEHR shank would work on normal steel and aluminium (two different inser grades ofcourse).

Pekka

Offline awemawson

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2017, 10:42:56 AM »
If I were re-tooling I'd go with the GTN series. The Sandvik series are less common and command a higher price, I only got started using them as some tooling came with a lathe I bought. They ARE however very nice and available in left, neutral and right hand cutting.

The parting insert holders don't last for ever - they make them double ended for a reason  :ddb: Trouble is when I've needed a new one (which has happened a couple of times) I've always had quite a few inserts in stock so ended up being wedded to Sandvik  :bang:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2017, 03:42:19 PM »
Thank you.

I agree sandvik inserts outlast E.G. iscar something like 2-3 times and they are nice when you get the right one. For some reason grades for excotic metals (like iconel, hardened metals etc.) come available more often under Sandvik.

But my need are normal structural steels and aluminium. I'll go for GTN2.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2017, 10:00:10 AM »
Haven't got around of ordering any parting off tools yet.

PLAN:
* I'll continue to use HSS for brass and shop made grooving tools
* I'll order some GTN-2 inserts from APT. I haven't had any inserts to break mysteriously when I have stayed on brand names.
* I would like to try sandvik 3 mm system, but when I went trough their site: It is a jungle out there! Holly guacamole! I can get trough different geometries, even grades, chip breakers and such, but to find any price and availability indication has completely evaded me.
* My friends are trying to persuade me to try MGMN 150 or 200 inserts and MGEHR shanks....maybe for aluminium? I'm very reluctant to buy any of that, but they are very cheap on ebay and such....any good? I guess does not hurt to try one shank and box of least offending inserts?

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Inserts for threading 16ER ISO and internal grooving inserts
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2017, 05:31:35 PM »
Got some Seco inserts for my internal grooving shanks. They work and did no cost arm an leg. They travelled back from Canada! :)

Pekka