Author Topic: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040  (Read 2458 times)

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2017, 10:15:54 AM »
Trying to filter my comments away from the political and toward a physical/mechanical discussion because I think the thread can be of value.

I totally agree that both the supply/transmission side and the storage side problems argue against pure electrically driven transportation. And on the other hand air pollution and fossil carbon injection into the atmosphere are real issues.

I think the LED is a good example of a solution to those issues which is outside the "best fuel" box. It simply reduces the need for energy by a big factor, rather than promotes energy production.

If thought was given to reducing energy used in transportation by a similarly big factor, then the pollution and carbon emission (and consumer cost) problems are greatly impacted.
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Offline awemawson

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2017, 10:28:02 AM »
In the UK practically every small town, every city, and many villages were connected by a rail network. Each station had a 'goods yard' and the major part of transport of most goods was rail, with only the 'last leg' on roads.

It saddens me that the branch lines were swept away in the name of 'progress' - yes the network was very run down after the privations of WW2 but a more enlightened view would have been to retain at least the 'permanent way' to enable more efficient trains of the future to use. Whereas most are now gobbled up by housing developments, supermarkets with the occasional 'preserved' heritage line run by volunteers.

A very big 'missed opportunity' in my opinion.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2017, 10:38:11 AM »
Hybrid vehicles are an approach that, to me, at least makes sense. If energy storage requirements can be minimized or even eliminated, I think electric motors at least, are a good idea. And if IC engines can be reduced in size, and increased in efficiency, as in hybrids, that's a good thing, too.

But thinking larger, about how vehicles are used.....probably 80% of my driving does not use a fraction of the capacity of the vehicle I own -- a pickup truck. To buy anything at all in rural Vermont, I need to drive 5 miles to town and 5 miles back on mountain roads. Do I need to move nearly 2 tons of vehicle 10 miles over hills to do that? Yet when I need to pick up concrete or tow a trailer, yes I do need most of the capacity of that truck.

We do own two vehicles, a compact fuel efficient car, and the truck, but often the smaller vehicle is busy running errands, so the truck gets used inefficiently.

So what are possible solutions to that? Get a third car? It's too expensive, takes too much space, etc. Motorcycle? Not in Vermont winters, no.

Outside the box, if instead of owning a heavy vehicle, I could use one only when needed from a community owned pool of vehicles, that might be a solution. I could own a smaller car, and trade it for the day to use the larger. Even if there was a charge for that, it would be cheaper than the yearly costs of maintaining a larger truck driven daily on unnecessarily small jobs.

And in fact, community pool ownership of smaller vehicles might make sense in some areas.

Another assistance would be community pooled delivery services, rather than driving to town myself to pick up something small. This is already actually happening via online ordering on an international basis (UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc.), but it doesn't happen on a pooled local basis, which seems backwards and counter productive. It also disrupts local economies, rather than fostering them.
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Offline Jo

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2017, 11:33:29 AM »
Lets say I buy myself an electric car, in theory I already have the solar panels with which to charge it.... They peak at 4KW output, and in the summer I often get 20KW a day = I can have free travel  :ddb:

HOWEVER during daylight hours 5 days a week my car is not at home where it could be charged for free or used as an electric storage facility, no it is sat in the work car park (see comment above).  :poke:

Jo
So many engines to build and yet so little time.

Offline awemawson

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2017, 11:56:41 AM »
Solved by a removable 'battery pack' and a spare :)


(Quick find more Lithium deposits - we've just doubled the number of batteries needed! )

As it happens there was a recent article in 'The Telegraph' regarding re-opening the 'South Crofty' tin mine in Cornwall as new mining techniques should allow them to remove more and lower deposits, BUT interestingly someone has already bought the water rights for water removed from the mine working as apparently it is rich in Lithium !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/07/29/poldark-legacy-tin-mining-could-return-cornwall/
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline hanermo

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2017, 12:12:54 PM »
Interesting comments --- let me put my oar in.
1- First, typical grid-use has about a 1:10 variance, ie minimum 10% use vs max capacity at peak.
2- Second, typical travel is about 30-40 km/day/car. Use 40 km.

3- Use == 200 Wh/km as avg consumption, around 200Wh/km/Tesla 3, a heavy upmarket car vs a 160 Wh/km on the small economy-bevs, or less on a tiny Renault Twizzy.

So, a typical BEV user needs == 40 km / 200 Wh/km == 8 kWh/day total consumption.
A typical house uses == 20 kWh /day, with the 10:1 variance.

So a house uses about 0.3-0.4 kW avg. load at night, and about 10x that during the peak usage, with an average 1 hour smoothing/variance.
So peaks of 6-10 kW, with avg. 4-6 kW loads per hour for a few hours.
Average typical houses have 12 kW peak capacity, mostly 15 kW+ for newer ones.

Thus, an avg. house at even if at only 10 kW peak capacity, can charge the total 20 kWh into a BEV in about 2 hours, often less than that, and under 3 hours average worst-case.
ALL modern electric grids could, in practice, charge 100% of all our car use, using nighttime electricity, very cheaply, in the aggregate.
A very old house, of only  6 kW peak capacity, could still charge the 20 kWh total in about 3.5-4.5 hours, between 11 pm - 5 am.

Based on the simple fact that our avg. peak capacity is == 12 kW/house or more, but leaves == 11kW+ peak capacity load available during 11 pm - 6 am, mostly at near-zero use.

As-is, where-is, the current grid could support approx 90-100% of electric cars for all users, in the EU, USA, and most-all oeced countries.
It is also extremely cheap, and extremely efficient.

Nighttime power is very much available, very cheap, and even thrown away by the electric utilities via resistor networks.
ANY nighttime BEV income the electric utilities get is more or less free-money to them, since 100% of their costs and investments are paid for by the current system in peaking-power and prime-time power, mostly, about 90%.

Utilities LOVE BEV charging, especially on a variable-load as-available basis, ie BEV charges on an as-available basis.
As more and more wind power is added, and wind power is biased for nighttime, the utilities can turn off more expensive secondary options, and reduce peaking power plants, that are extremely costly.
The costs for utilities go down via BEV  nite-time use, incomes go up, utilization rates go up, reliability goes up.

Current systems costs, delivered, zero subsidy, for utilities are about 2-4 cents/kWh, all-in, via 20 year PPUs, in wind and PV.
These drop 5-10% y/y, and already most of the costs, over 50%, are political BOS costs, ie paperwork and political stuff.






Offline awemawson

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2017, 12:24:29 PM »
Bit of an issue for all the dwellers in flats and small terrace houses typical of London where the pollution issue started with our politicians as you can't get your vehicle anywhere near your own electricity  :bugeye:

Urban areas are obviously far easier, but that's not the bulk of the problem.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2017, 01:05:09 PM »
Even if night time transmission capacity were able to support an all-electric vehicle fleet on the present scale (which I doubt), I absolutely don't buy that the generating fuel consumption would remain at its even current disastrous rate. I could imagine it doubling however.

What I mean by disastrous is the effect of warming on sea ice clathrates, releasing methane, a far more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. Tipping that scale is chain reaction stuff. No stopping it once the critical temp is reached. Ice melts, methane released, temperature rises, ice melts, methane released, etc.

Our planet's atmosphere wasn't always what it is today, and a reversion to the times when all that plant matter (from which we get fossil fuels) was going growth crazy in a carbon dioxide rich hot water everywhere soup would have been a rapidly poisonous atmosphere for you and I.

By releasing that plant bound CO2 (and shortly methane as sea temps rise) we are tipping the balance past the point of no return.

Look up sea ice clathrates to get some idea of the scale of potential methane release. Then check the greenhouse effect of methane vs CO2.

Fossil carbon is locked up for a reason, at least as far a human life is concerned. The planet doesn't really care what we do with it. If we want to let the genie out of the bottle, fine. It's as happy in the Carboniferous era as it is supporting humans and our antics.
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2017, 01:35:21 PM »
23years hence.

5 more governments in power inbetween

Nuff said
John Stevenson

Offline Pete W.

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Offline Jo

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2017, 02:12:21 PM »
Solved by a removable 'battery pack' and a spare :)

I looked at that and it is not economical: battery life has to at least double and half in price.

It is however cost effective to dump my spare solar power into my emersion heater and any further excess (in cooler seasons) into a resistive space heater using a cleaver gadget I have  :thumbup:

Jo
So many engines to build and yet so little time.

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2017, 06:20:51 PM »
Uk average milage is about 8000 per year about 22 miles a day .  average commute is 90minutes 36% drive. that equates to 45miles each way or 90miles a working day

 I do typically 75 - 100 miles in a working day carrying 50kg of tools and 120kg of nephew  :lol: (my 2l  passat estate does about 60mpg , averages about 30mph peaking to 60mph on a good day)

a twizziy ain't gonna cut it  :D

Bill

Offline Jo

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2017, 04:48:11 AM »
I did start thinking about what does this electric thingy mean for Hire Cars...

For example: When I fly to foreign lands (Edinburgh) I normally hire a car and then drive the remaining 60 miles to our site, stay for a few hours and return. When I arrive on site parking is normally impossible because all the locals have pinched the parking places  :bang: But worse than that I will need a fast charge point because I need the car fully charged so I can turn round and get back in time for my flight home again. And Hire Cars are normally "dropped off" in our case from 10 miles away. So that is 10 miles less the car is capable of doing before you start (unless you charge it first). And often they forget to drop off a car and we have to take one that someone else has returned the day before :( 


Returning to charging your car at work: We did start looking at the costs associated with charging cars and their recovery. So 20KwH of electric is not a lot and the paperwork/tracking for the business would be a pain and probably cost more than the electric but if it is free it will no doubt it will be seen in the eyes of the tax man as a taxable perk..

Jo



So many engines to build and yet so little time.

Offline AdeV

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2017, 05:00:10 AM »
I wonder if driverless electric "taxis" aren't the future... so, to take Jo's example, rather than having up to 200 people driving 50 miles every morning, instead you use a smartphone app to hail an electric taxi. This takes you to wherever you're going, then leaves and takes someone else somewhere else. A computer can work out if any given taxi can or can't complete a journey on whatever charge it has left, thus it won't dispatch a car to somewhere it won't be able to make it to AND back to a charging station. Speaking of; suitable high-speed charging stations can be installed in suitable locations, the cars will automatically call in when they need topping up. Although this would require sufficient vehicles to cope with peak demand (bearing in mind we've become an incredibly impatient race - we want to go somewhere, and by golly we want to go RIGHT NOW thank you!).

Such a system could work extremely well in cities, but it could be made to work in rural areas too. People with solar panels, for example, could opt to sell their power to "the electric cab co". Even in rural areas, there's generally a pretty good electricity supply, so charging stations are practical even out in the sticks. It might take a bit longer to get a "cab" to your door, but us country folk are used to waiting a bit longer for things...

IMHO, that generally addresses the needs of a typical commuter. It doesn't, however, address many other aspects of travelling:

Leisure (I want to go to Cornwall for a week's camping holiday - try that on any form of public transport....). So, maybe I can book exclusive use of a "taxi" (possibly a larger one so I can fit the whole family + luggage in it). The vehicle itself might still take off during the night to re-charge.

Worker's van: Tougher one this. All those plumbers, sparkies, broadband engineers etc... I suspect they will have to just put up with the inconvenience of recharging their own vehicles.

Note: All these little driverless cars, we could call them "Johnnycabs", and have a head-on-a-stick to talk to during the ride :lol:

Big unaddressed problem: How to pay for it all.... who pays, how much, and when? I leave that as an exercise for the reader   :scratch:  :palm:


I do wonder if, ultimately, this is going to be another one of those times when something which has transformed our lives (the privately owned motor car/van/etc.) is phased out & there's nothing better to replace it with. Maybe it'll turn out that the late 20th/early 21st centuries were "peak convenience".

Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline hanermo

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2017, 06:14:23 AM »
Within about 2-4 years, electric cars will be well available, from multiple manufacturers, at 60-80 kWh battery capacities as std.
Reason is money.

Currently, tsla has costs of about 112$ /kWh for 2170 cells at 380Wh/kg. World leader in usage, and costs, and lion tech.
BUT...
For == 17 years, lion cell capacities and thus costs have dropped 7-9% y/y exponential.
This means every 5 years the batteries are 50% cheaper/better.
This trend is now accelerating, because there is so much money in it.

Today, for tsla or another major manufacturer making 10 GWh/yr in lion cells (tsla is the only one today with advanced lion batteries in scale, but many others will appear and are building plants at this time), a 60 kWh battery thus costs == 60 x 112 == 7000 $ pack cost to the manufacturer.
5 years ago the cost was == 350$/kWh == 21.000$.
5 years from now, the cost will be 7000 / 1.5 = 4700 $, +/-.

At the real cost of == 100$ in 5 years, likely 60-80$, it will be trivial to make base pack sizes of == 100 kWh, for 6-8k$.

Of note:
A BMW3/Audi4 etc engine == 4000 $ to the manufacturer, gearbox about the same.
I used to sell cnc stuff to the auto manufacturers and suppliers, the nrs are pretty real.

Thus, practically *today* it is cheaper to make a high performance BEV car than a std ICE car.

A 3-phase 300 hp motor like the tsla one, is about 30 kg in mass and costs about 5/kg, under 400$ to make.
It is just a high efficiency 3-phase motor.
The tsla-designed cheap vfd with std cheap igbts, is about 400$ in parts.

Tanks, radiators, firewalls, transmission axels, pumps, are not used, saving about 1000$.

Thus the auto industry will go to bevs, due to money, but this will mean that many/most auto companies will die ..
because they have huge liabilities in bonds and pension obligations, and personnel that cannot be easily and cheaply fired.

GM has 100-200B in assets. But they have 160B in debt.
And most of the assets are near-worthless in a post-ice world.

VW has about 20B in liquid assets, and another 30B in real ppe assets they could sell.
But they have about 900k Very Expensive personnel in germany alone, and cannot realistically reduce headcount by 50%-70%, that they would need to do to survive in a post-ice world.

The problem for VW/GM et al is not that they cannot pay their bills, next 3-5 years, while developing new tech, at a cost of 5-15B in that time.
They can pay, easily, and they can develop the tech, easily.
The real problem they have is that if/when the market sees them as having stranded assets - true - in 2-5 years, their market cap goes down.
This leads to them failing, because they then cannot, any more, put up 30B in equity to satisfy their bond obligations, pension funds, and bank covenants.

Big Auto can do 1, 2, or 3, or any 2 .. but not all 3 at once.
So far, they all have done "ostrich management", ie head-in-sand ignoring technical reality.

Markets are forward-looking.

Offline Jo

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2017, 06:58:21 AM »
Lets think about the people who save up and can just about buy a second hand car for 5K. Rich people replace their cars every 3 years so a car with a battery life of 5 years means that 60% of its usability has already gone before another huge bill. So I am guessing that the second hand value of cars will drop rapidly and there is going to be an active market in replacement batteries with warranties and no doubt battery insurance.

What will happen to the poor people who are challenged to find 1K to buy a car. As the petrol station close down due to lack of customers I assume the fuel prices will go up and yet again it will be the man in the street who will suffer.

All said and done: If I could buy an Electric car today with a range of over 200 miles, at under 10K (with good handling/performance/comfort) I might consider it  :coffee:.

Edit: Forgot to mention that 10K is total ownership cost for five years. I am having none of this 50 to 100 a month to rent the batteries as my monthly fuel cost is currently under 25 :poke:

Jo
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 09:15:50 AM by Jo »
So many engines to build and yet so little time.

Offline vintageandclassicrepairs

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2017, 05:50:07 PM »
Hi All,
My 2 cents worth  :smart:

Unless there's a massive increase in cheap clean electricity production I don't follow the EV argument.
Wind never blows when you need it and needs to be backed up with brown energy
If the nighttime demand for power rises so will the price of it.
From an efficiency viewpoint the power to the average home comes in at percentage's in the low 20's
So unless EV's are solely charged from clean energy their existence is dubious simply moving pollution from one place to another  :loco:

I had the question below asked at a wind farm planning appeal hearing,
"How much CO2 is produced in the manufacture and installation of a single (eg 3Mw) wind turbine and how man years before it would save that much CO2 and become carbon neutral?"

No one there would or could answer the question, which I thought should be a straight forward calculation? X tons of concrete+ Y tons of aluminium + X tons of copper and so on
Concrete and aluminium production being some of the highest producers of CO2

The big incentive to build wind farms (here in Ireland) has been the extremely long energy buying contracts offered and the governments intent to follow EU directives

 :bang:
John

Offline PK

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2017, 07:08:36 PM »
Unless there's a massive increase in cheap clean electricity production I don't follow the EV argument.
I think the argument is that, because governments have been selling off our utilities to balance the books for years, we find ourselves in a situation where demand has to lead supply.
Quote
I had the question below asked at a wind farm planning appeal hearing,
"How much CO2 is produced in the manufacture and installation of a single (eg 3Mw) wind turbine and how man years before it would save that much CO2 and become carbon neutral?"
  I've looked into this in the context of ev's and it's surprising how quick the payoff is.
Roughly:
1t of steel production releases 2t of CO2 (it varies quite a bit by country)
To keep it simple, lets say a wind turbine is made from 75t of steel and produces 1MW
Digging around, it looks like a figure of 500kg of CO2 per MWh is reasonable for any generation system with coal in the mix. Again it varies quite a bit...

So our wind turbine breaks even on CO2 in 150/0.5/24=12.5 days!

The source numbers I used could change quite a lot and the payback would still be good.

PK


Offline vintageandclassicrepairs

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2017, 06:56:54 PM »
Hi PK
But Al and concrete are the biggest parts of wind turbines ??

John

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2017, 10:43:26 PM »
And armature and delivery wire and Insulation, transmission components, fluids, instrumentation, switching, fire containment, cores, blades, braking, consumables, etc.  This is a powerplant, not a bridge.
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Offline Charles

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2017, 05:31:49 AM »
Materials in a typical 2MW wind turbine
blades, 3 of 10 tonnes GRP - 3 tones epoxy / polyester / vyinlester resin, 6 tonnes glass fibre, 1 tonne balsa or foam, bolts packers, lightning conductor, balancing mass etc

Hub, 10 tonnes steel plus either 3 giant electric motors or 3 hydraulic rams to pitch the blades, batteries or accumulators in case of power failure, cabinet containing PLC, relays, breakers etc

nacelle, 30 tonnes of steel, including frame, bearings, shaft, gearbox, generator. 500l gearbox oil, 200l hydraulic fluid, sundry motors for pumps, yaw, hydraulics etc, cabinet with PLC etc Large quantity of copper in the generator & cables (any estimates how much copper in a 2MW generator?) Housing, usually GRP, probably a couple of tonnes

Tower, 30 tonnes of steel, big bundle of cable,

somewhere nearby, transformer and switch gear to condition the power so its suitable for the grid probably another couple of tonnes of iron and copper

foundation, onshore varies with ground conditions, but say 7m cube of concrete 750 tonnes offshore steel pilings, or a steel raft

Aluminium not much used except for access ladders platforms etc, maybe 1 tonne total. Concrete towers sometimes used in places where labour is cheep.

The big issue material wise is end of life all the steel and copper can be re-used, but no-one has yet found a way to recycle the blades

The issue for our charging electric cars is distribution the best sites for lots of wind turbines are flat empty places like the American Midwest & the Russian Steppes the problem then is how to you move several GW of power hundreds of miles to where all the people are?

Offline AdeV

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2017, 06:08:48 AM »

The issue for our charging electric cars is distribution the best sites for lots of wind turbines are flat empty places like the American Midwest & the Russian Steppes the problem then is how to you move several GW of power hundreds of miles to where all the people are?


Hmm, turn it into petrol (see above) and drive it there in tankers/pump it in pipes?  :palm: Back to square 1...

The same is true of solar power. The Sahara would be an ideal place to mount millions of square meters of solar panels generating gigawatts of power every day.... most of which would be lost to transmission losses.

I've been reading up on batteries the last couple of days (as the result of an argument on another forum about whether F1 will ever go electric), and some of the new tech that's coming through is literally astonishing. e.g. energy densities are getting close to that of petrol.... So, I wonder, could we actually see the day when electricity is best transported by truck?! It sounds insane... but we already move oil around by truck, why not electricity in batteries?
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline PK

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2017, 06:14:54 AM »
Materials in a typical 2MW wind turbine
.
.
.
Hence "To keep it simple".  All of these things have calculable CO2 emissions per ton. Point is the payback in terms of CO2 saved is VERY quick.. Because nothing emits CO2 like burning coal to generate electricity.

PK

Offline Jo

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2017, 10:59:49 AM »
I think we need to keep this greenhouse gas stuff into perspective: In the UK Cows (Dairy & Milk) expel more greenhouse gasses than are generated by all the means of generating electric for our home consumption.

The argument on Electric Cars is to cut down emissions in towns: If you go back 50 years towns had something called Smog and that went away when we got rid of coal fires and installed central heating. Then most people smoked and town air smelt like an ashtray and smoking has been discouraged. As a result of all of this cleaning up the air there are many more cases of Asthma in towns :scratch: What they really should be looking at is gas boiler emissions  :coffee:


Ade: As an owner of Solar panels I have learnt a lot about them: they generate best on a cold Spring/Autumn's day when it is about 10 degrees outside, anything above 30 degrees and they sulk. I am at a loss why no one has picked up on solar roofing tiles rather than using concrete ones.

If you want a really interesting read on Sustainability then in 2009 (yes a few years old) David MacKay wrote "Sustainable Energy - Without the hot air" http://www.inference.eng.cam.ac.uk/sustainable/book/tex/sewtha.pdf

Jo
So many engines to build and yet so little time.

Offline AdeV

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Re: Ban of sales of IC engined cars to support electric cars by 2040
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2017, 11:46:25 AM »
I am at a loss why no one has picked up on solar roofing tiles rather than using concrete ones.

Tesla has.... coming to the UK next year apparently, and at a cost of less than re-roofing with traditional materials (allegedly).

Could yet be I wish I'd not re-roofed my house just 4 years ago... that said, solar power in Liverpool isn't really much to write home about. Now, if only I could find a way of harnessing whinging....  :lol:
Cheers!
Ade.
--
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside. A long way from anywhere.
Or: Zhengzhou, China. An even longer way from anywhere...
Skype: adev73