Author Topic: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle  (Read 1844 times)

Offline PekkaNF

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Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« on: September 09, 2017, 12:43:36 PM »
I am rather annoyed.

I bought this machine some years ago and it looked like a real find, even spindle measured and soud right. I never really used it, but this week I have used first time continuosly, maybe 3 hours total. Never any hint of problem. I was considering of dismantling it and relubricating the bearings, but I did not want to take the risk of ruining the spindle. It has grease lubricated bearings and no relubrication provision.

Almost like this:
http://www.lathes.co.uk/cincinnati-tool-and-cutter-grinder-number-2/img5.jpg

http://www.lathes.co.uk/cincinnati-tool-and-cutter-grinder-number-2/img15.jpg


I was dressing the grinding wheel today and noticed faint but clearly rough sound. No detectable axial clearance, but about 0,03-0,04 mm of radial clearance at the other end with pretty good manual force. it feels funny, not really like play, more like springly/gummy feeling :scratch:

So, I probably need to dismantle it, check it all over, order new imperial parts and slap my forehead with empty wallet and still no quarantee that it will ever work again. :bang:

I have rebuild car wheel bearings and some electric motor, alternator and that sort of stuff, but my success rate has not been 100%.

I am one beer upset.

Pekka
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 02:36:49 PM by PekkaNF »

Offline Pete.

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2017, 01:29:33 PM »
Just strip it down and fit a new bearing. If imperial stuff is too expensive shim the shaft or housing and fit metric. There's no real magic involved.

Offline gerritv

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2017, 01:56:25 PM »
Just strip it down and fit a new bearing. If imperial stuff is too expensive shim the shaft or housing and fit metric. There's no real magic involved.
I disagree. This is not a car axle. Runs at 4000-6200 rpm, any irregularity will show on the ground surface. The retrofit spindle cartridge on my early 1900's Cincinnati Universal grinder has matched bearings (look for a faint dot). >USD600 a pair and easy enough to screw up on installation. I am therefor living with mine the way it is.
The No 2 head drawing shows 2 sets of precision bearings at each end of the shaft. You can count on these to be matched sets, increasing the $$'s and also increasing the risk of installing incorrectly.

I recall in the 1970's replacing bearings on a Univac FH432 drums running at 7142 rpm. If you succeeded all was well with the world. If you failed a day later there would be rubber dust all over the cabinet as the teeth were removed from the drive belt. The shaft at that point usually had twist marks where the bearing stopped turning. Not a happy call to make to the branch manager.

Offline Pete.

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2017, 02:16:38 PM »
The best bearings from the 1900's couldn't match decent standard ones today. This is a T&C grinder not a surface grinder, and a homeshop one at that. I flushed and greased the ones in my T&C grinder and it's just fine.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2017, 02:38:23 PM »
Thank you all.

I'll have another beer, cool down, read everything I find on this cadridge spindle and dismantle it tomorow when I'm cool like the ice-man.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2017, 08:21:53 AM »
OK. cooled dow and did some more measuremets this morning. It turns out that the bearing arrangengement on fixed bearing end has no detectable play in any direction. The other end has play of 0,02 mm and clear sound.

Read everything I could get, but pretty much all says: Don't fix, send it to manufacturer. Not option here.

So, I took out Sopko type grinding stone holders and extension. Hexagon key would not give any indication of opening (and I checked the hand of the bolt from extra adapters). Charged the tank with 3 bar and two small trigger pulls with smallest impact driver opened the bolts easy and with no risk to bearings.

Spindle extension needed a liitle cold spray on firm manual nutation to break it free.


Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2017, 08:25:33 AM »
Needed 3/16" hex key to open the dust covers, other came out easy, but fixed end needed oil, little heaing with hot air gun, big wrench/plastic strips to protect the dust cap and it was tight.

Someone has been there before!

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2017, 08:30:22 AM »
Belt was losened per manual.

Legend plate out from the top and two hex bolts loose and tommy bar/pinion was used to lift the motor and free the belt.


Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2017, 08:37:04 AM »
Need to make keys to to open labyrinth seal and bearing outer ring holder. I was very happy that I had some metric and foreign centerless ground silver steel rods to gauge the pin holes. They were too small to measure accurately with vernier.

Odd thing is that tehy do not seem to be imperial sizes 3,0 and 5,0 mm rods fitted best.

Now I need to make those tools.

There is a consideration that I'd like to share.

1: Do I try to fix the bad end only? If I find a way to adjust the play, I migh get away setting it and maybe with relubrication of the bearing.

OR

2: Do I take the spindle out and try to rebuild it completely? Depending availability of that size/type angular ball bearing this might lead completely new spindle caridge construction.

Pekka

Offline mattinker

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2017, 11:24:15 AM »
Personaly I 'd try to adjust and then you still have the fix-it all option if that doesn't work!

By the way, how's the repeat-o-meter? are you stuck for grinding you feet?

Regards Matthew

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2017, 12:55:27 PM »
Repeat-o-meter was suposed to be excuse to try out grinding machine and planned parts and sequence for it. Even bought a small magnetic table, it's still on the mail and got this weekend to sort out the gring machine dust collection and to clean a little of the garage.

Rained all weekend - not fun to take trailer on front and load it up with all the crap from garare and then this spindle problem. If this does not get sorted, I may need to revert file and milling machine.

Made one tool that has pins for labyrinth seal (rotates with arbor) and bearing outer ring retaining nut.

Fits well on both, other side was a little tighter. Tried to open them by hand but the both nuts are tight.

Do you think the nuts have normal right hand thread? Would they have used glue or they are just tight? Did't want to try to open them that hard anymore today.

Pekka

Offline mattinker

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2017, 05:03:08 PM »
It is so frustrating when you end up repairing things to make things to allow you to get on with what you had hoped to de!

I feel for you, regards, Matthew

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2017, 02:57:51 PM »
Not much to show...I checked the sound with stetoscope, wiggled and loosened/tightened the nuts...looks like it needs a rebuild.

More pictures tommorow, need to mark and box parts to prevent mixing.

Pekka
« Last Edit: September 11, 2017, 10:10:34 PM by PekkaNF »

Offline gerritv

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2017, 04:15:28 PM »
Not much to show...I checked the sound with stetoscope, wiggled and loosened/tightened the nuts...looks like it needs a rebuild.

More pictures tommorow, need to mark and box parts to prevent mixing.

Pekka

Did you take a look at the instructions to replace the spindle belt? I think there are some clues there that might help with fault isolation as well as disassembly. The spindle assembly should be able to slide out 1 side. Page 51 of the Operators manual.

In photo P9105869c.jpg above you remove the LH bolt, loosen the middle bolt and tighten up the RH bolt to spread the casting open slightly (on both ends of the casting).

Gerrit

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2017, 10:08:10 PM »
Thank you.

I have been reading the manuals about the spindle removal and belt change. It is very well covered and the structure is rather obvious.

I loosen up the bearing retaining nuts, while the spindle is still firmly mounted. All four nuts opened normally. Normal right hand thread, if it had thread locking compound it was very little resistance on it. Definitely needed the tool and some arm, nut not anything like encounter on car wheel bearings.

Put parts loosely back in. I don't want it to come apart while I take it out or mix parts.

Few pictures to amuse you.

I did undo the spindle set screws both ends of the spindle, then loosen up the clamping bolts and turnd maybe just a little more than 2/3 turn of the jack screws to spread the clamp. Now the spindle sifts out well.

Plan is to remove the spindle and disassemble the parts on boxes to prevent parts from mixing.

When I have the bearing type and see all the marking for glues maybe I can find replacement bearings that I am willing to buy.

I am intrigued to see how free bearing end differs from fixed bearing end.

Pekka

BTW. see the "Oil cap" at the last picture. It is not an oil cap!

*typos* not smartest very early/late!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 09:02:53 AM by PekkaNF »

Offline gerritv

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2017, 08:14:02 AM »
Good news then! At least it will come apart for the next stage.
If the bearings are a matched pair there will be a small round fuzzy mark on the outer race. These marks are supposed to line up with each other according to my local rebuilder. As Pete said maybe it doesn't matter for our uses as hobbyists but I can't help wonder about other bearing characteristics such as tolerances. High RPM generates heat and it has to be dissipated to avoid seizing. (I heard of some people who didn't want to pay for the correct idler bearings on Ferrari 308 engines, a bearing seizure at 7000rpm is spectacular in its consequences! I chose not to cheap out when I did the belt change on my 308GT4 :-)) There are probably some identifiers after the main bearing number that indicate fit/tolerance.

Perhaps that Oil bolt belongs somewhere else? My ancient machine has an oil hole that goes nowhere as well, perhaps a trademark of Cincinnati :-)

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2017, 09:10:33 AM »
Jeah, I know the feeling of the cheap bearings and fear of knackering the expensive ones in assembly. It's funny how people learn word "brinelling" and how descriptive it is on wrong handling.

I have this growing suspicion that least free end has two deep groove ball bearings. I'll be damned if the other end does not have pair matched angular contact bearings in DB (back-to-back) form. But lets see....I'm easily surpriced and entertained. :scratch:

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2017, 03:42:41 PM »
Removal os pindle and flat belt was really easy.

Marked the parts with permanent marker and started taking the spindle apart.

Bearings came out easy. There is big extractor on the picture, but I used only hand tight, the double ball bearings came out easy, without resorting spanner at all, the single double row ball bearing needed a touch of spanner on the puller and that too came out easy.

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2017, 03:58:01 PM »
The bearing arrangement was really unusual...all metric bearings - made in usa!

Outside diameter of the spindle housing(s) is about 77,78 mm. Must be something magical, like 3".

The other end had a single SKF 2305, nominally 25x62x24 mm bearing, no special markings or anything, just "NW05" on outer ring. Probably nothing magical on this one?

This probably would do:
https://www.agrolager.de/product_info.php?products_id=12100840

The other end is completely different story: pair of 6305 SKF 25x62x17 mm bearings. That size is very normal and standard, but rest of the bearings are bit different and I don't know what to make out of them.

Those bearing have markings all over them. There are max TIR marking on outer race/inner race, alignment marks on outer races and then some markings on inner ring that I either have wrong or I simply don't get them

"6305 C7 B3 G1" or something like that. C7 does not make any sense. Maybe it is C1, which is very small internal clearance, out of normal bearings that stop on C2. CN is normal and C3 bit more clearance. Another thing is that this should have accuracy class like P6 marking in it or down to P4 (ABEC 7).

Trying to hunt down something semi decent like 6305.P6 FAG and see how far it would take.

Don't like them completely open, but probably non contact seals were not available at that time. Least not on spindle bearings.

ideas?

Pekka
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 12:48:02 AM by PekkaNF »

Offline gerritv

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2017, 05:44:07 PM »
Which bearings were at the 'spongy' end?

The matched ones have a lot more markings than mine.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2017, 12:58:56 AM »
This "normal" SKF 2305 was the one first giving the grief, but the other (pair) has detectable noise too.

This 2305 is easy to find pretty much exact replacement, but the paired ball bearing 6305 arrangement is harder to find. Size is common, but the clearance and accuracy needs to be sorted out

Pekka

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2017, 07:20:26 AM »
Now this got interesting: Started whing on coffee about my grinding machine spindle bearings and consensus was that new brand name SKF/FAG deep grove ball bearings standard accuracy class tends to be P5 or close and I might be better off choosing C3 clearance and match/fit bearings myself that trying to find matched pair. Easier option would be to buy pair of universal angular contact bearings, they should fit straight out of package, no fitting&faffing...only to check that critical loads do not exceed demand....deep groove ball bearings and angular contact ball bearings are rather different.

The story (they say) about C3 P5 is that larger than normal clearance (C3) might be actually better if I plan to shim (or preload) the clearance out...those bearings do not cost arm and leg, might buy two just to check if they can be measured and tried out.

Choices.....

Pekka

*Forgot C3*
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 09:58:51 AM by PekkaNF »

Offline gerritv

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2017, 12:20:11 PM »
Sounds like all round good news.
And perhaps hope for when I decide mine are too noisy to live with. I think I have a matched pair of 205W's at each end, can't tell until I take it completely apart. And that means replacing the bearings anyway :-(

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2017, 02:28:56 AM »
Very often bearings are hard to remove without putting pressure on correct bearing ring, thus brinneling the bearings. Therefore I used no hammering and minimum amount of pressure. I want to measure/check the bearings.

I am not mechanical engineer, but there are quote a few I can talk to and one in particular has been designing and making big industrial gear boxes and developing methods to produce parts of them. Like to talk to him, because he is very hands on person, although got later in life doctorate degree, cut's fast trough bullshit and tells me often that I have been reading too much and spent too little time looking bearing tables and intimately understand what they actually mean in practice.

I rinsed the bearings yesterday with grease remover, dunk them on ultrasonic cleaner, dunk them on IPA (to remove water) and gave a drop of oil to be able to check them.

Then a friend came to check them. He said that the bearing surfaces looks pretty much good enough and I could clean then further (looks like grease interacted with cage and "plated" it) and reuse them. Totally unexpected. He explained that the noise I heard most likely came from gunked grease and released "plating" from the cage.

2305 bearings have certain amount of play, C3 internal clearance seem to be standard, threfore the play I measured from floating end is not alarming for this bearing type.
http://www.skf.com/pk/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/self-aligning-ball-bearings/self-aligning-ball-bearings/index.html?designation=2305%20E-2RS1TN9

Values: ISO 5753-1. Values are valid for unmounted bearings under zero measuring load.
http://www.skf.com/pages/jsp/catalogue-table.jsp?id=tcm:143-138591

That means effectively that I should mount the wheel on the other end I had it.....no problem. I need to buy the belt anyways, might use 30 for new bearing and dab it with good grease.


Other end (2*6305 deep groove ball bearings) is still under consideration, exact replacements are hard to get, original ones are shedding debris from ball cage and they are not measured yet. I may need to buy pretty good ball bearings, measure axial deflection under preload and stack them with shims between inner and outer races...never done it on this accuracy, would be new and firs one for me.

I need to buy belt anyway, I'll give me few days to think this over and maybe I can devise ways to measure old and new bearings?

Pekka

Offline Andrew Wildman

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Re: Spindle problem with cincinnati tool and cutter grinder 2 spindle
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2017, 03:09:45 AM »
Sounds like fun and games. I hate fitting bearings. Always seems that even with the correct procedure results are variable