Author Topic: A bit of everything!  (Read 9632 times)

Offline Rog02

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A bit of everything!
« on: May 18, 2008, 11:52:35 PM »
I do a lot of sheet metal work.  Some architectural restoration, some hot rod, a lot of aircraft, and some plain old "shop art".



The lily is polished copper and bronze, slightly larger than living scale.  The bell it is displayed in here is a spun lamp shade I made for a contract kitchen job.  This one was a reject as it has some ripples where I over stretched the metal :(.

Roger
Old, Tired and Grumpy as always.
Roger
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: A bit of everything!
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2008, 01:25:29 AM »
Hey Roger!

Nice piece. I hang around and read the Metal Spinning Workshop forum. Terry is pretty close to me. As soon as I can afford it, I am there to take classes.

Got any pictures of any other work you have done? What do you use for your spinning set up?


Eric
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We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline PTsideshow

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Re: A bit of everything!
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2008, 06:07:21 AM »
very nice, work ;D
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
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and I'm working on the first two!
glen

Offline Rog02

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Re: A bit of everything!
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2008, 01:08:08 PM »
Hey Roger!

Nice piece. I hang around and read the Metal Spinning Workshop forum. Terry is pretty close to me. As soon as I can afford it, I am there to take classes.

Got any pictures of any other work you have done? What do you use for your spinning set up?

Eric

Hi Eric:

Thanks!

The spinning was done on an old Oliver wood lathe that was converted to a spinning lathe.  The lathe belongs to a friend of mine and it is for sale.  I have actually  done very little spinning work.  Just enough to know there is a lot to learn about it.

Terry's DVD is a good introduction to spinning.

I'm on the Board of Moderators at The Metalshapers Association and there are a bunch of albums on the MSA website at www.allshops.org  We also maintain a Yahoo group for the everyday chatter at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/metalshapers/ 

Anyone interested in sheet metal work can join us on our Saturday night chat session.  It usually begins around 7:00 PM CDT and runs until the last liar quits.  The object of the chat is to share experience with newcomers.  All questions will be answered and a lot of shoptalk, bench racing, and hangar flying to boot.  I am the Grumpy_Oldman on the chat.

Roger
Old, Tired, and Grumpy as always
Roger
I'm OLD, I'm TIRED, and I'M GRUMPY!

Offline Divided he ad

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Re: A bit of everything!
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2008, 02:18:45 PM »
Hi.... I want to make a sphere!!!

There's the statement, here are the issues... I only have a small workshop and in it I omly have a 9x20 metal lathe... (I only want a sphere 2" dia)  Can you use this to spin successfully? I would obviously make a tool rest and appropriate tools (that's the easy bit!)
I just wondered why it always seems to be a wood lathe?


Oh, nice lilly too Roger, I like shiny  ;D  How do you get the shape/effect, do you just beat it?



Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline PTsideshow

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Re: A bit of everything!
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2008, 07:29:01 AM »
The reason I was told by an old time spinner years ago. Was they were cheaper to buy and it was easier to modify when they don't cost so much. Also since when doing the production spinning. The forms are made from wood the same lathe can make the forms and do the spinning. With only a slight change in the tooling and set ups.
But then again he could have been shinning me but it does make sense.

I have the tool rests and face plates for my Sherline lathe. And other than a mess with oil on the ways with sawdust,chips everywhere to clean up it works on small simple stuff.
 ;D
"The internet just a figment, of my imagination!' 
 
 There are only 3 things I can't do!"
Raise the Dead!
        Walk on water!
                 Fix a broken heart!
and I'm working on the first two!
glen

Offline Divided he ad

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Re: A bit of everything!
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2008, 09:57:41 AM »
Fair enough P.T. I had never thought of that one... I was thinking that there could be other issues like loading  etc but then to cut metal is surely a harder task on bearings than cutting wood?

I will have a go at the tooling soon and see how I get on  ;D




Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline Rog02

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Re: A bit of everything!
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2008, 05:56:47 PM »
Hi Ralph:

Sorry to take so long to answer but life has been interrupting my pleasures again.

Spinning a sphere will require doing it in two pieces and then either soldering or welding the halves together.  I do this frequently for a local spin shop and we have tried numerous different methods.  Hemispheres just seem to be the easiest way to go. 

The 9x20 lathe will work for such a small project without too much bother.  The practice of using a wood lathe is that they are considerably less expensive to purchase and normally have a much larger swing for a given floor space than a metal lathe.  The tail stock simply presses the center clamp into the disc so it does not require the same rigidity as a screw lathe.  The other advantage to using a wood lathe for conversion is that it will allow you turn your shape forms on the same machine you use to spin metal.

A professional spinning lathe (such as a Prybil) is more akin to a drop bed lathe as the throat in front of the chuck is very large to accommodate the large blanks required for the deeper parts.  A spinning lathe also has a massive thrust bearing as the force will be concentrated axially rather than the radial loading associated with a screw cutting lathe and a wood lathe.  For the average hobbyist the thrust bearings on a wood lathe should have a sufficient lifespan and I rather doubt if any of use will be spinning any 14 ga. stainless anytime soon.   

I have to mention the use of a center pin in the clamp fixture.  While it may be common practice for a professional spinner to clamp up a solid blank and spin a continuous hemisphere, the danger of throwing the blank out of the lathe is very real.  The addition of a center pin in the clamp may leave a hole to be filled later but the risk of decapitation is eliminated.  YES I have seen a 64" steel disc come unchucked and fly across the spin shop!  Never, NEVER, EVER stand in line with a spinning blank! 

As for the shapes in the lily, I use several combinations of shrinking and stretching.  All work on that piece was done with hammers and it was hand planished.  Since I have been doing sheet metal for the past 40 years my collection of forming stakes has grown large. 

Roger
AKA The Grumpy Old Man

Hi.... I want to make a sphere!!!

There's the statement, here are the issues... I only have a small workshop and in it I omly have a 9x20 metal lathe... (I only want a sphere 2" dia)  Can you use this to spin successfully? I would obviously make a tool rest and appropriate tools (that's the easy bit!)
I just wondered why it always seems to be a wood lathe?


Oh, nice lilly too Roger, I like shiny  ;D  How do you get the shape/effect, do you just beat it?



Ralph.

Roger
I'm OLD, I'm TIRED, and I'M GRUMPY!

Offline Divided he ad

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Re: A bit of everything!
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2008, 01:57:33 PM »
Thanks for the reply Roger, I had already thought of making it in two parts and silver soldering it together.
Would you say that the form could be made from steel? (I assume alu' would expand too fast with the heat? )

I have all the tooling I need to make the required rest, pegs and curved forms, I just need to know a few minor details like where to find the grease/lube'  to use on the workpiece? The centre pin you talk about, would the live centre of a metal lathe be any good if the form has a small recess(centre drill hole) in it for the dent/tip of the centre to go through?


This lilly making sounds a lot harder than one might imagine!.... Shrinking, stretching and forming stakes!!! I have much to learn!!  ;D


Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: A bit of everything!
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2008, 03:26:11 PM »
I am dying to learn metal spinning. I have thoughts about picking up a wood lathe and converting it to use. I do want to get over to one of the classes that Terry does at his shop.

Eric
Science is fun.

We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline Rog02

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Re: A bit of everything!
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2008, 10:06:58 PM »
Hi Ralph:

I'll try to answer the questions in order.

Thanks for the reply Roger, I had already thought of making it in two parts and silver soldering it together.
Would you say that the form could be made from steel? (I assume alu' would expand too fast with the heat? )

Actually, a steel spinning form is way overkill unless you are going to do a continuous run of several thousand parts.  Most forms are made of a quality hardwood such as rock maple.  I use native Missouri walnut because I have a family source to loads of air dried seasoned lumber.  The lathe attaching collar is made from steel or aluminum and I make mine so they have a center pin that locates the wood accurately.  The use of a center pin on the adapter allows me to make a couple of adapters and use them on many spinning forms by simply unscrewing the mounts and re-installing on the desired form. 

The wood forms are generally built up by gluing 2"X2"X6" blocks together to get the required stock size.  By alternating the grain patterns the block actually is more stable than a solid piece of wood and this method allows you to eliminate any knots.   

The spin shop has a library of forms that reach back to the 1920s and they often recycle a shape that is close to the current need.  Some of the aircraft cowling forms were covered in steel however the majority of the forms are wood.  Remember, the form must be sanded smooth as any imperfection in the form will be reproduced in the metal.

I have all the tooling I need to make the required rest, pegs and curved forms, I just need to know a few minor details like where to find the grease/lube'  to use on the workpiece? The centre pin you talk about, would the live centre of a metal lathe be any good if the form has a small recess(centre drill hole) in it for the dent/tip of the centre to go through?

The "grease" is actually a compound of grease, soap chips, and oil.  The oldtime spinners used sheep tallow, but that is next to impossible to find these days unless you wish to render it yourself.

As for the centering device I would turn a bushing with a pin on the work face that will sink into a center bore in the form and on the other end have a recess for the live center to run in.  By using a straight pin in the center and a larger flat surface you get a better clamp than by trying to hold the work by forcing a taper into the surface.

This lilly making sounds a lot harder than one might imagine!.... Shrinking, stretching and forming stakes!!! I have much to learn!!  ;D
Ralph.

"This Lily" is considerably more elaborate than the average metal flower.  This particular piece was done on commission and it now mounted on mausoleum. 
I teach basic metal rose making using nothing more than an ordinary claw hammer and a trailer ball hitch.  Flowers are easy and the local high school art departments ask me to come and do demonstrations on metal sculpture.  Though I use some pretty sophisticated equipment in the shop, I would not teach much to a kid that doesn't have access to few thousand dollars worth of equipment, if that is all I demo'd.  My little art demo is centered around flower making with the claw hammer, hitch ball dolly, tin snips, propane torch and plumbers solder.  The material is copper roof flashing and 0 gauge electrical ground wire, both of which you can usually find at any decent hardware store.

If you are interested in learning metalshaping I might suggest looking at The Metalshapers Association website at www.allshops.org
We also have a Saturday evening chat session that runs from 7:00 PM CDT until around midnight.  For those you across the pond that would be 0200 Greenwich Sunday morning :o.  For those of the Aussie persuasion, Clive tells me he is on at 9:00 AM Sunday morning.  We will be glad to answer all questions about basic metal shaping.  The link and info are available at the MSA homepage.

Roger
AKA The Grumpy_OldMan
Roger
I'm OLD, I'm TIRED, and I'M GRUMPY!