Author Topic: BMW V8 dry sump from billet  (Read 106227 times)

Offline AdeV

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BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« on: February 09, 2010, 07:16:31 PM »
A couple of years ago, Dad built himself this:



For anyone who doesn't recognise it (probably if you're from Forrin), it's a Ford Capri. With a 5 litre BMW V8 in it, from an M5.

When the engine was first being worked over, it was decided that a dry sump would be the best option. So, the alloy BMW sump (which was a monster) was binned & replaced with a welded steel unit. Unfortunately, the steel sump has always leaked, and is surprisingly heavy. So, an aluminium replacement was always on the cards.
And, now that I have a milling machine, it's game on :)

So, first job was to secure some aluminium. I needed a piece some 22"x10"x2.5"; a couple of quotes both came in around the £200 mark. Since that was clearly ridiculous, I bought a lump that's been on eBay for a while - a disc some 869mm in diameter, 2.5" thick. It arrived yesterday, so the first job was to get it on the mill:



Weighing in at some 100kg+, that piece is going nowhere... I added a couple of clamps which basically just nailed it in place.

You can just about make out the layout lines on the above pic. That piece is big enough for 2 sumps - which is kind of handy, as I will need one for MY Capri soon  :D

So, the first job is to cut the bulk of the material away from around the 2 sumps. As I don't have a bandsaw anything like man enough for the job, I'm having to mill it out. Using a 6mm ripper (roughing cutter), here's the first cut going on:



After about 3; hours, here's the result. Each slot is 1.3" deep, or just a shade over 1/2 way though the block.



I can't cut any deeper than 1.3" without over-stressing the cutter, as the broken one in the above picture proves. Luckily, I bought 2... and I could do with another 2 or 3 as I've got a lot of slots to go... However, if anyone's wondering how good these cutters are vs. a normal 6mm end-mill; well, it's a world apart. This thing munches through aluminium like it's hardly there.



A gratuitous shot of the slots so far.



I've cut about 736mm slot by 6mm width by 33mm deep, or nearly 146,000mm3 (8.9in3), and despite breaking the cutter (my own fault - I mounted it too low in the collet, and it snapped at the flat - i.e. the weakest point of the shank) I'm pretty happy with progress so far.

Tomorrow... more slotting :)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2010, 07:20:34 PM by AdeV »
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline andyf

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2010, 07:34:24 PM »
Ade, if you have a furnace, you should be able to get another sump or two out of the forthcoming swarf, once you've dug your way out of it to the door  :lol: :lol:
Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2010, 07:35:25 PM »
A couple of bits I forgot to mention above...

- I've drilled a hole right through in each corner, so when I turn the block over I've got reference points for the slots on the other side.

- I'm using an air blast to keep the slot clean as I mill it - which requires at least 4 hands when using the hand wheel, and I could use an extra eye to keep the DRO under surveillance... I'll be shaking aluminium chips out of my hair for a week, I think...

- The billet cost me £150 on eBay - or just about £1.40/kg. Which is a real bargain but, as you can see, the piece only just fits on the machine... Fortunately, I'll have lots left over afterwards for any other project that takes my fancy - even another sump, if I get it re-cast into a fresh billet...

Andy - you replied while I was typing this, but great minds & all that.....

I will have to pick the swarf up, however, from what must be a 20 ft radius!
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Darren

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2010, 08:11:14 PM »
That is some lump of alloy !!

You'll have some nice bits left over  :)
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Offline CrewCab

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2010, 08:38:31 PM »
I will have to pick the swarf up, however, from what must be a 20 ft radius!

a £25 Argos vacuum could be a good investment :thumbup:

Looking forward to following this Ade,  ................ good looking Capri, I'm guessing Dad doesn't drive over many raised manhole covers  :bugeye:

CC  :beer:

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2010, 09:03:34 PM »
I will have to pick the swarf up, however, from what must be a 20 ft radius!

a £25 Argos vacuum could be a good investment :thumbup:

Looking forward to following this Ade,  ................ good looking Capri, I'm guessing Dad doesn't drive over many raised manhole covers  :bugeye:

CC  :beer:

I have the vacuum cleaner - it dribbles cutting oil everywhere it goes, the filters are that wet - but I found that I couldn't get the nozzle close enough to the cutter, especially on the deep cuts, to  be of any practical use. About 45 mins of that time at the milling machine was spent digging the compacted swarf out of the trough, where the vac had failed to pick it up. The air blast - whilst incomparably messier - had the advantage of both cooling the cutter so I could run it dry, and keeping the trough swarf free (by making the workshop anything but swarf free, I admit...).

The Capri has seen some "bouncing off the kerbs" action, fortunately they tend not to have manholes on racing circuits  :)
It also got crashed into a few times... always at the front, of course; luckily, no mechanical damage, only bodywork and the occasional suspension strut.

Mine will look extremely similar, although I hope to blend the bodywork into the arches a bit better; and I'm trying to figure out how to get double-wishbone front suspension in; one of the problems Dad had with those massive front tyres combined with a McPherson strut was, he ended up with a large scrub angle: So, as you turn the steering wheel, the outside tyre tries to push forward & the inner tyre tries to pull backwards - if you see what I mean - instead of pivoting on a point. The result is massively heavy steering, and a decided lack of controllability, especially under braking. Not to mention excessive front tyre wear. He's fixed that by going back to narrower front tyres; I plan to get my offsets correct & use the fact I can get a double-wishbone much further into the wheel than a McPherson strut will ever manage.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2010, 02:35:17 AM »
I'd probably have gone for a larger dia cutter to keep the depth/dia ratio a bit better. And also cutting fluid, looks like you are cutting dry.

Jason

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2010, 05:32:23 AM »
I'd probably have gone for a larger dia cutter to keep the depth/dia ratio a bit better. And also cutting fluid, looks like you are cutting dry.

I certainly considered a larger cutter, but the 8mm cutters seem to have 10mm shanks, which would mean a minimum 10mm cut - almost twice as much material lost to swarf as with the 6mm. That said, if it ends up costing me £25+ in cutters, then that is a false economy. I'll see how long this 6mm cutter lasts before making any width changes.

As for cutting fluid; I used a bit of WD40 when the going got tough, which certainly helped the shank of the cutter to slide through. The tool itself barely got warm, however, so I think the speed I'm pushing it at is well within its dry capabilities. I did try it at 4600rpm for a while - and it really would power through the ali at that speed - but what with needing one hand to hold the air line, one hand to pump the coolant, one hand to work the power feed or manual feed, I found I was short of arms to the tune of 50%...

Of course, the answer would be to get the flood coolant system running, but I've no drip tray on the mill so it would go everywhere...

Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline No1_sonuk

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2010, 07:49:25 AM »
Wouldn't a circular saw or angle-grinder be an easier way of getting through that?

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2010, 08:28:15 AM »
Wouldn't a circular saw or angle-grinder be an easier way of getting through that?

It was considered:

- Circular saw is a pain, it still won't cut full depth, and is almost uncontrollable viz direction, and needs three arms to operate if using coolant, which you have to because otherwise it jams up in that depth of ali. I've cut a 1.5" deep piece before now, and so long as you're patient, it will cut that depth... just.

- Angle grinder; again, depth is the problem; but also the discs just clog up with aluminium.

I also considered a jigsaw, but again, it'd just take far too long, and I'm not sure if it's got the depth.

The best option would be a proper vertical bandsaw, a large Startrite for example (not the toy DeWalt one I have) - but the cost of buying & installing one far outweighs the lost material, cutters and time of milling it out, and my comedy bandsaw is OK for most of the jobs I throw at it.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Darren

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2010, 08:35:25 AM »
One of those £30 circular saws in ALDIS would work well ..... cept for the depth.

To keep a circular saw cutting straight clamp a bit of battern or angle to the work piece and run the saw alongside that  :thumbup:

Then you should be able to cut from both sides, it's be quick too.
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Offline Bernd

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2010, 09:33:03 AM »
AdeV,

Love the looks of that car. That front spoiler would work well for the people in Pennsylvania with all the snow they're getting. Would make a great snow plow.  :lol:

I can't believe the big piece of ally sitting on the mill.  :bugeye:

This is going to be one interesting post.

Bernd
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2010, 10:24:00 AM »
The front of the car is getting remodelled a bit this year - narrower front wheels mean those wide front arches are much closer into the original wing; and the snowplough (which got mentioned every time it turned up at a track!) will be shorter & a bit narrower. It should also sit considerably closer to the ground, which will help it's stealthy looks (if anything with a big yellow stripe on it could be considered "stealthy"  :))

That ali lump is right on the limit of what will fit.... I've had to wind the head as far back as it would go to stand any chance of milling the slots without the whole thing being horribly unbalanced.

I wouldn't like to have to do anything with a piece of steel that size!  :bugeye:

More cutting out tonight.... I'd like to be ready to turn the piece over tomorrow, when I'll have an assistant on-site - pretty sure I can't manage it on my own!
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Trion

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2010, 10:51:34 AM »
Love the car. Great taste on colors, my car is also black and yellow, though more yellow than black :ddb:

I have just one concern. When I read about various mills, before buying mine, I read that some mills have a maximum table load. You'r not worried about crossing that? How did you lift it up there? I dont see any lifting hooks :scratch:

Regarding the ALDI saw. We have a milwaukee hand held circular saw at work. We use it for cutting stainless, and it works great as long as you cut straight. But if the saw is held on an angle, and the sides of the teeth touch the metal on their way up from the piece, the blade only lasts a minute or two..

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2010, 11:46:14 AM »
I read up on the max table load for the Bridgeport (after loading the disc up...  ::)) - it's 750lbs, or about 340kg. The disc weighs a mere 106kgs (slightly less now :dremel:), so well within budget.

When it arrived on its pallet I rolled it to the bench & hoisted it up that high myself. To get it on the mill, me & a mate simply picked it up and (very gently) put it straight on the table. If I can get the rest of the topside slotting done tonight, then we'll simply lift the piece off the mill, turn it over (on the bench, most likely), and put it back on the mill the same way.

One thing I haven't considered yet... is how I'm going to stop the bit I'm cutting off from falling away as I finish the slots off. I can see me losing a cutter very easily in that scenario.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2010, 11:55:08 AM »
Quote
One thing I haven't considered yet... is how I'm going to stop the bit I'm cutting off from falling away as I finish the slots off. I can see me losing a cutter very easily in that scenario.

Leave a small section at each end and then saw it off by hand

Parafin is a good cutting fluid for ali.

Jason

Offline No1_sonuk

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2010, 02:15:51 PM »
Cut through at each end before the middle and tie a rope on it.

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2010, 04:41:51 PM »
Another thing I need to consider; as I get close to the final cuts, the end pieces will start sagging down, which is not desirable I think. Dad suggested putting some plywood underneath the entire piece, so the entire disc is supported. I think that's a pretty good idea, any views from the panel?

So, on to tonight's work... just more slotting, really. First job was to complete this slot from yesterday:



Nothing exciting happened, I used WD40 as coolant (the paraffin is reserved for the space heater!), the slot was completed & the disc rotated to pick up the next slot.Having lined the billet up, I need a reference for when I come to mill out the other side. So; pick a suitable spot & spot-drill:


Then drill through (in hindsight, I should probably have left the drill holes blind for the time being, as all the WD40 dripped out of the holes - so I used lots more than I should have!):


So now, when I turn the disk over, I've got 2 holes which I can draw a line between on the backside, which will exactly match the slot on the front side.

Finally, mill out to the desired depth. Which, in this case, is absolutely as far as I dare go:


I started that slot with what was left of the old cutter (since it broke half way up the shank). I pushed it hard and fast and dry, until it snapped again - this time in the flutes. But it managed 0.600" - nearly half way down the slot. I loaded up the second cutter, and carried on with a bit less pace. No more photos, nothing exciting happened.

Next - rotate the disk again & make another slot (last one). Here it is after the first 0.200" pass:


Swarf-tastic. I managed one more cut (to 0.400") before I called it a night; the bearing on top of the mill is starting to get hot, so tomorrow's first job is to whip the top off the bearing housing & re-pack it with grease. This is the same bearing that seized when I first had the mill, and it could really do with being replaced - but I don't know how... does anyone have a how-to, by any chance?
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline kvom

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2010, 08:06:43 AM »
If it had been me, I'd have used a much bigger cutter.  My 5/8" endmill can easily take 1/4" deep cuts and could full depth.  Power feed on the x-axis is a big help too.  Your way is working though, so who can complain?   :beer:

Offline Bernd

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2010, 09:22:50 AM »
Swarf-tastic. I managed one more cut (to 0.400") before I called it a night; the bearing on top of the mill is starting to get hot, so tomorrow's first job is to whip the top off the bearing housing & re-pack it with grease. This is the same bearing that seized when I first had the mill, and it could really do with being replaced - but I don't know how... does anyone have a how-to, by any chance?


Here's a link to a post on how I fixed my fine down feed. There may be something in the pics that'll help. Unfortunatley my machine has variable speed and is much flater on top so I could do it the way I show in the pics. But you may pic up something on how ro take it apart. Fine feed fix

Bernd

Did a quick google and came up with something that might help. Bridgeport Parts
« Last Edit: February 11, 2010, 10:06:11 AM by Bernd »
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2010, 05:40:01 PM »
kvom - I guess I'm too mean to lose big chunks of ali! The more that's solid, the more things I get to make...  :headbang:

bernd - interesting thread, thanks. I don't think I need to go that deep into mine, the fine feed works OK, as does the drill feed (although the return spring is bust, so I need to find a new one of those). I know how to get as far as looking at the bearing that's dodgy, but it's fixed in the bearing carrier; I believe it's a "light press fit", so maybe it gets pressed out from the other side? Not sure... Anyway, I just carried on today, I'll grease the bearing at the weekend.

So - Day 3. More of the same.... I finished the long slot down to depth on Side A, then - with an assistant - flipped the disc to Side B. I placed it on a bit of MDF so the pieces won't fall off as they're cut (that's the theory, anyway). Onwards.... I started with the other side of the same slot I was cutting yesterday. Here, there's 450 thou left to cut:



20 minutes later (the clock proves it...), there's only 50 thou left:



Shortly afterwards, I successfully separated the two parts, leaving me with a giant woodruff key :D :



No other pix tonight, I got the piece lined up for a short slot & cut that to depth; and re-aligned it for the other really long slot - but ran out of time: Silent Witness was on tonight, so I came dashing home to watch it, only to find it was a repeat!  :bang:

Tomorrow, therefore, will feature an extra long milling programme.... Oh, and 3 more roughing cutters have turned up, so now I have an insurance policy against broken cutters! Which is good, because at ~5 mins cutting + 5 mins cleaning per 200 thou pass (22" long), it's taking too long. Each slot needs to be some 1300 thou deep, i.e. 6 passes, which is at least an hour. So with my new cutters, I will try to drive them a little harder & deeper, maybe taking 400 thou passes at about the same speed.

For what it's worth: The "woodruff key" offcut weighs about 8kg, according to my highly inaccurate bathroom scale, and the swarf I've collected in the hoover (which doesn't count what's splattered all over the wall, floor, and me) is around 2kg - although there's a fair quantity of oil in that too.
Anyone wanting to find out where I've been recently will have a very easy job: Just follow the trail of aluminium swarf!  :lol:
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2010, 05:18:32 PM »
Day 4: Hacked off another 2 pieces (approx 25kgs worth). I can now just about manoever the remaining lump around on my own, although it's still chuffing heavy...

No photos today, I took a video instead :) But it's going to take quite a bit of editing down, I'd like to get it down to about 4-5 mins (from slightly over an hour  :bugeye:). Hope to have that done tomorrow afternoon. Meanwhile, I need to hack one more "woodruff key" off, then cut the piece in half, then I'll finally have my 2x billets, 5 days after starting!
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2010, 11:45:50 PM »
This is a very cool project log. I am very interested in it... there is a project on my back burner that needs a a dry sump. Priced em out... way too expensive. This may give me the courage to do my own.

Eric
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2010, 12:24:59 PM »
Eric - I'm glad your enjoying it, although were' not quite at the real meat of the project yet! If it inspires you to make your own dry sump, that's great. Or, if this works, maybe I could make it for you! (shame we're in different countries though, the postage would be a bitch)...

Anyway, most of today I've been continuing to cut out the pieces. By the end of last night, I had the L-shaped slot (pic below) milled to depth, and when I took this photo I'd got the Z (ish) shaped slot cut to depth on the top side:



Now, as you may recall, I've been drilling right through the piece to give myself markers on the opposite side, so I can line the slots up. It's been working very well, with only a few thou inaccuracy. Unfortunately, the big Z-shaped slot presented some new difficulties.... this is the first cut I've done where the milling head's been actually over the table. Of course, the long cut, with two holes in it, is not lined up over a T-slot; the ali is directly on the table, so I either have to drill the hole shallow, or commit the cardinal sin of drilling into the table itself. As that would never do, I opted for the shallow hole. Using the quill depth stop, I set enough movement to get right through the piece. Then, with the work off to one side, I fitted the drill bit, lowered the quill onto the stop, then raised the table until the point of the drill was almost kissing the table (maybe 0.002" up). Then, up with the quill, position the work, and drill. Those holes completed, I went to drill the 3rd hole - which, as luck would have it, was positioned over a T-slot. Great! Except.... due to the tab sticking out at the back of the piece, I couldn't lower the table enough to fit the drill bit in! I had to cut the slots first, then I could run the drill into position along the slot! Here's a pic; the drill is now in place. You can see the piece up by the column which won't go any lower, as it would hit the Z-axis dovetail:



I used a slightly smaller drill (5.5mm instead of 6mm) to make sure it didn't bind on the sides of the slot as I moved it into position. This was then drilled through, and walked out of the slot the opposite way it went in. Job done! So, turn the piece over:



As the holes weren't quite through, I used a pointy tool (I'm sure it used to be a screwdriver...) underneath, tap with a plastic hammer, and observe the pinhole that appears. Then, from the top side, insert point and give a sharp tap. The results are as above... The black thing is the sump gasket, and is being used to ensure I've left enough meat around the slots to fit the job...

Next up - score lines between each hole (just a reminder), then line up & clamp the work to the mill. Note I'm using extra clamps; after I've finished the cuts here, the lump will be in two pieces. As neither is supported underneath, each pair of clamps is holding one piece to the mill.



Done!



The gasket is sitting on what will be the 1st sump (Dad's). As you can see, plenty of material around the edges of the gasket to get a nice finish.



And now the 2nd sump (MY sump :D) I've not bothered cutting the remaining "woodruff" shape out yet, I'll do that when I come to use this bit of ali. I'm bored of all this slotting work... I'm sure you are too.

So, I suppose I'd better show what I'm making... Here's the steel prototype sump:



The bronze coloured blobs are where a strip of tin has been brazed on. Pinched under the tin is that gauze; under which are some magnets, and a trough which carries the oil away. The pipe, seen in the lower right hand corner of the picture (at the front of the sump) is one of three oil outlets.

Here's the underside:


It's not the best of pictures; but you can make out the trough, which has one visible outlet pointing towards the camera. On the other side of the trough is the second outlet (pipe with 90 degree bend); and almost invisible is the front outlet (that pipe), also with a 90 degree bend.

The aluminium version won't look quite like that; the three outlets will all appear on one face (the front), and will have been deep-bored through the billet.  Probably my next job is to start designing the structure; then - if this damn wax ever turns up - I'll get making a prototype...

The video I promised yesterday should - I hope - be along later this evening...
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Dean W

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2010, 09:54:02 PM »
This is quite a project, Ade, and quite interesting.  You had to jump through a few hoops to get that huge hunk
of al pared down.  Looks like it's going along well!  By the time you get done, you're going to be some kind of
"Lord of the Swarf".   

BTW, I checked out your clock in the pics of your earlier post.  It took 25 minutes, mister!  When everyone else
can see the time, you really are on the clock

: )

Keep up the good work.  Thanks for the pictures and write up.

Dean
Dean W.

Shop Projects:
http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/projects.html

Praise the Lord and pass the Carbide!