Author Topic: LED Help please  (Read 13922 times)

Offline Powder Keg

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LED Help please
« on: March 14, 2010, 02:05:15 PM »
I'm building a brake light and a turn signal for my sidecar. I know nearly nothing about the ways of the electron :doh: I think I can get the LED's and little resistors wired up fine. I found a circuit wizard that can help me with that. I would like to make the brake light flash when they are pressed and maybe something fancy for the turn signal would be fun too. Would this be very hard to do?

I think LED's are confusing? So far I think I need about 90000 mcd's for turn/brake lights and around 20000 mcd's for running lights. Does this sound about right? Or am I on my own? I'll get my lights from http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-b...Fled_prods.htm I'll be ordering the stuff this week\o/ I want to get these lights wired up and on my rig. Can they be too bright?


Thanks,
Wesley P
A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

Offline Divided he ad

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2010, 02:44:03 PM »
Hi Wes  :wave:


I hope I can help a little bit with this -   http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz  - I use this site to calculate when I make something.

As to the candels, does there have to be a maximum for the brake lights? There are hundreds of types of LEDs out there, most of them when mounted in a cluster would near blind you!! And to get the side/running lights down would higher resistance not do this? Perhaps others will chime in here? I only do this stuff for fun.... Someone must do it for a living?

I usually get my LEDs from eblag, the Japanese ones sell for pennies and are (in my case) always spot on.

I found the same sight as you list here.... But in dollaroonies and with postage it's a killer for me.




Hope there is something useful in there?



Ralph.
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Offline Powder Keg

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2010, 03:09:47 PM »
Thanks Ralph.

That's the same place I found to design LED circuits. The brake light i am building is pretty big. I'm planing on about 40 Led's. 30 for the brake light and 10 or so for running lights. Turn signal is separate and will have around 30 Led's. Again 10 for running lights and then only 20 for the turn signaling. probably over kill :wave: :clap: :wave:

I was looking at some Red ones. They are 8000 MCD's with a 30deg. viewing angle. This should make a pretty bright setup? But I don't really have anything to compare it to.

I wouldn't know how to change the resistance to make things dimmer.

Thanks,
Wesley P
A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

Offline Powder Keg

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2010, 03:51:04 PM »
Looks like the Ebay LED's are way cheaper!!! I might lean that way?
Wesley P
A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

Offline Bernd

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2010, 04:21:39 PM »
Wes,

Here's two electronic places that sell LED's

http://www.digikey.com/

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/StoreCatalogDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1

Use their search box for LEDs.

The leds work with amperage. So finding the right resistor to get the amperage were it's supposed to be will solve that issue. Don't have my electronics books here right now so can't give you an example.

I've got LED lighting on the trailer I built. I think the tail lights only have about 10 or 12 LED's. When the brake light goes on they just about blind you. I'm sure they are the super bright ones. I'm thinking using 30 would melt the guy behind you if you turn on the brake lights.

That's about all I can add to that.

Bernd
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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2010, 04:27:44 PM »
Huge amount cheaper ehh, ehh!  I got something right :thumbup:   


Basically as I see it.... Please correct me if I'm wrong.

If you increase the resistance it's like closing off a water tap. The flow becomes restricted and less water gets through so there is less to be used.

So, increase the resistance and less electrictricery is there for the LEDs to share. So they glow dimmer   :zap:  (this only works to an extent with LEDs though, as they're not quite like incandescent bulbs!) You may however need to find some lower mcd LEDs?  This requires experimentation!!!

So personally I'd get maybe 10 soldered up and using the calculator in the above link work out the correct resistance. Then I'd increase it by 2 and see what dimming effect it has in the array. etc, etc till I had the desired effect.

Then I'd make sure my resistors were up to the job... 1/2 watt or possibly higher to handle the load/heat and then make my lights!



I made a high vis' brake light (only) for my mini using LEDs years ago (17!!) only 2 LEDs and they worked well even after I sold the car on. Constantly got told they were too bright.... And that was onlt 2 of them mounted in the numberplate light housing... Stew might like those??


Anyway,
What you could do is two circuits per light cluster using the brake switch to turn what are the running lights into brake lights when the brake is operated.
I.E. a circle within a circle, the outer one lit permanently (running lights)  and becomes brighter with the inner one when the brake is pressed?

If that's the case I think I could do it? just by bypassing the resistors for the running lights at the time the brake switch is pressed, thus lighting them all brightly and returning to just running lights when the brake is released.

That'd maybe involve less LEDs and give more design possibilities?



If anyone else thinks I'm talking $%*% please help us out.... But I think this'd work :scratch:   :zap:





Ralph.


 
Just saw Bernd's post appear.... There's more stuff to help  :thumbup:
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Offline Bluechip

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2010, 04:36:05 PM »
Wes. Bernd

Seems to give the US spec. for vehicle lamps in Candelas here ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_lighting#Stop_lamps_.28brake_lamps.29

Or are you aware of this, and still not sure?

Don't know of other parameters , beam divergence allowed etc ?

In UK, AFAIK. it's (DC) input power/colour. ie Brake / Indicator need to be 21W & Red/Amber respectively.

I think some BMW cars have LED's in UK. ..  not sure and I've no intention of finding out, only ever had one BMW car, absolute crap .. :(  not going back there ..

Ralph is on the right track, but you may need a alloy clad resistor ... you need to calculte the watts of the series Resistor.

Dave BC
I have a few modest talents. Knowing what I'm doing isn't one of them.

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2010, 04:47:06 PM »
Quote
I think some BMW cars have LED's in UK. ..  not sure and I've no intention of finding out, only ever had one BMW car, absolute crap ..  :(  not going back there

I know Aston Martins do.... I've got 2 rear light clusters and 2 headlights.... Don't ask me where from  :ddb:  but someday they're going to be one sweet set of uplighters  :thumbup:

As for BMW...No comment  :lol:



Quote
Ralph is on the right track, but you may need a alloy clad resistor ... you need to calculte the watts of the series Resistor.

Blimey.... Wasn't expecting that!  :)



Ralph.
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Offline Bernd

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2010, 06:03:12 PM »
Wes,

I found my notes, old as they may be, on figuring out te resistors for an LED. All you'll need to know is what the forward voltage and the amperage is of the LEDs your going to use. To find the wattage of the resistor the formula of amps X volts = watts.

Here's the notes:



Hope this helps.

Bernd
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Offline Powder Keg

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2010, 09:01:08 PM »
This is all helpful guys\o/ I have the array designed for the oval running/brake light I'm building. For now it will have 7 running led's and 14 brake led's. That works out to 56000MCD's and 112000MCD's It might be overkill? But I want people to see me.
Wesley P
A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

Offline Krown Kustoms

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2010, 09:45:14 PM »
Sounds about right on the amount of lights you have.
There is a flasher circuit which uses a 555 timer chip that is pretty versitile and I have used it several ways for several different applications.
You change the resistance and capacitance values to change the rate of flash.
Here is a simple one to try. http://www.instructables.com/id/41-LED-Flasher-Circuit-using-555-IC/
There are plenty of simple ones out there. Google will show all:)
-B-
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Offline Powder Keg

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2010, 10:50:31 PM »
Might be a little over my head? I'll be Lucky if this even works and nothing catches fire  :lol:
Wesley P
A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

Offline Davo J

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2010, 12:34:10 AM »
My son bought 1000 10000mcd of 5 different colors for around $55 posted to Australia from this fellow.
http://myworld.ebay.com.au/bestshop2008hk?ssPageName=ADME:X:CEM:AU:1181
If he doesn't have listed what you want just ask and he will list it for you.
Hope that helps.
Davo

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2010, 04:49:55 AM »
Bernd,
Surely there is no way that was all hand drawn was it!!! Too neat!  Very useful info too.... What's on the next page?  :)     
Maybe it needs a different thread? :Bernd's old notes:   :smart:



Wes,
Quote
I have the array designed for the oval running/brake light I'm building.

That sounds like it could be made into an eye shape, with an iris or/and a pupil? .... Almost makes me wish I had balance, a bike and a gung-ho attitude  :headbang:   :)
Don't you know a man or two near (relatively) you who can design,make and even build such circuitry?  You could ask nicely? :poke: or pretty please  :wack:    :lol:


Davo,  Same guy I used last.... Good LEDs (See brass torches :thumbup:)





Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline DMIOM

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2010, 05:34:51 AM »
.......If you increase the resistance it's like closing off a water tap. The flow becomes restricted and less water gets through so there is less to be used....

So, increase the resistance and less electrictricery is there for the LEDs to share. So they glow dimmer   :zap:  (this only works to an extent with LEDs though, as they're not quite like incandescent bulbs!) You may however need to find some lower mcd LEDs?  This requires experimentation!!!

So personally I'd get maybe 10 soldered up and using the calculator in the above link work out the correct resistance. Then I'd increase it by 2 and see what dimming effect it has in the array. etc, etc till I had the desired effect.

Then I'd make sure my resistors were up to the job... 1/2 watt or possibly higher to handle the load/heat and then make my lights!

............

Guys,

In this environment, I think you may not need resistors, or at least you can manage them downwards :

An LED has a pretty much fixed operating voltage (the "forward" voltage) and then a maximum current.

Assuming you're just using relatively steady DC, you should not exceed the forward voltage. You can operate at a lower voltage, but the output falls off very quickly.

Classic use for a resistor is if, say, you want to run one LED off a 12v supply. Your LED specs will give the forward voltage - say 1.7v - so you need to make sure your LED only sees that 1.7v - no more - so you need to 'drop' 10.3 volts.  Your LED spec will then say what the normal operating current is - say 30 mA - from that you can calculate both the resistance and the power rating required. Always have a higher power rating resistor than the power being dissipated to allow a safety margin; especially as running on the limit in a vibrating environment such as a vehicle makes failure more likely.

Now, in this example above, we're throwing 10.3/12 ( = 86% ) of the power away as heat. If we only want one LED (and don't want to indulge in any fancier PWM electronics) then that waste is the only way.  However - if you're going to have multiple LEDs, why buy power resistors and have a hot-spot in the car / sidecar etc.? - Instead of wiring say 10 LEDs in parallel with whopping resistor(s), use the LEDs themselves. Say you were planning on having 10 LEDs - you could start by wiring them as two strings of 5 - i.e. two separate batches, each of which has 5 LEDs in series - that way, if the forward voltage of each LED is 1.7v your string now has a forward voltage of 8.5v and you only have to drop 3.5v

There is a small danger that if you put all the LEDs in one string you have a single point of failure (who can remember hunting down which bulb had blown in the Christmas tree string) - but LEDs are a lot more reliable (if not over-driven) - so maybe re-arrange your LEDs so you have them in a minimum of two strings;

- and if you're canny, you can arrange that each composite string has a forward voltage of just over 12v ! - i.e. no resistor required!

(In an auto environment, you also have to accomodate varying voltages - your lights need to be bright enough at minimum voltage, but you need to make sure the LED won't be over-volted at the highest charging voltage from the alternator).

Also - saw mention of 30 degree viewing angle. It's not a cut-off, but it does drop off significantly beyond the angle specified. Brake lights may not need a tremendously wide spread, but turn signals may need more than 30 degrees, so you may have to have more LEDs on a convex mounting.

Dave
« Last Edit: March 15, 2010, 05:42:22 AM by DMIOM »

Baldrocker

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2010, 06:50:55 AM »
Powder Keg
Is there some reason why you cant use the led auto lamps listed on
http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/index.cgi?action=DispPage&Page2Disp=%2F1157.htm
seems a lot easier than messing about with individual leds. I've used them on my car for some
time with no problems.
Just a thought
BR

Offline Powder Keg

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2010, 11:20:48 AM »
I tend to do things the hard way. I find I learn more that way :doh: Here is what they are going in. http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=440.15
Wesley P
A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

Offline michvhf

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2010, 02:57:40 PM »
Wes,

I found my notes, old as they may be, on figuring out te resistors for an LED. All you'll need to know is what the forward voltage and the amperage is of the LEDs your going to use. To find the wattage of the resistor the formula of amps X volts = watts.

Here's the notes:



Hope this helps.

Bernd

That brings back memories.  I used to have that same notebook!  Light blue cover as I recall.  Lots of good info in there.


Offline Bernd

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2010, 03:47:21 PM »

That brings back memories.  I used to have that same notebook!  Light blue cover as I recall.  Lots of good info in there.



Mine's a pinckish red color. Maybe they made them in different colors.  :scratch: Have the whole series. Good basic info.

Bernd
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Offline John Swift

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2010, 08:01:36 AM »
Hi Powder Keg
                      If you are still experimenting with led lights
have you tried a constant current supply for  the leds
a 10v chain of leds for example will remain at a constant brightness while the  battery voltage varies from 12 to 16v

a 2n3819 fet with the source and gate terminals joined will limit the current to about 9 mA
into a short circuit or a string of leds adding upto 1 or 2v less than the supply
the maximum volt drop across the fet is 24v , check the dissipation is not more than 200mw

  John
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 08:22:25 AM by John Swift »

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: LED Help please
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2010, 10:35:59 AM »
That brings back memories.  I used to have that same notebook!  Light blue cover as I recall.  Lots of good info in there.

I am often asked to design electrical/electronic things.  I tell such people that all I know about electrics/electronics are: Ohm's Law, Kirchoff's Law, Don Lancaster, & Forrest Mims, III.  The scary part is how often such limited knowledge is sufficient.