Author Topic: Scott flame licker build  (Read 147154 times)

Offline MikeA

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #225 on: March 20, 2011, 06:33:22 AM »
Hello John,

I've been following your build and am, once again, very impressed with (A.) your craftsmanship, and (B.) your inventiveness - congratulations on what will inevitably be another great engine. Love the idea of the gas burner as well as the graphite valve. Lots of ideas for the file for future use!

Best,
Mike
'Better is the enemy of good enough!'

Offline NickG

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #226 on: March 20, 2011, 08:08:48 AM »
Very nice John, the parallel springs look a lot neater it seemed a bit of an afterthought on the original design nevertheless functional. There's always something like the grub screw issue that crops up. Similar thing happened on mine, it wasn't tight enough and moved.
I expect it's probably ticking over now as I speak ...
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #227 on: March 20, 2011, 10:50:03 AM »

I will be happy just to see it running.

A job for today, hopefully.

John

Good Luck!  :thumbup:

David D
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Offline Divided he ad

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #228 on: March 20, 2011, 01:16:12 PM »
Definitely getting there John  :thumbup:


My camera has a slow motion function on it... But I've never tried to get anything transferred to the computer... I'll have to see if it's possible?

Some of these things use the internal trickery and it doesn't work on the big screen? I'll let you know.




Ralph.
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #229 on: March 20, 2011, 05:38:41 PM »
Twice at lunchtime today I tried to get this post written up, but both times I failed miserably, purely because I wasn't feeling up to it.

So now here is the belated post.

I need to carry out a few little mods to get this engine up and running, so this post concentrates on two of them, mainly how to make gaskets, which I will be showing in full, so that maybe a few people can pick up a tip or two.

I am making this head gasket for three reasons, the first is to seal the cylinder from the outside world, second is to attempt to stop a lot of heat transfer to the cylinder and water jacket and thirdly, to make the studs shorter so that they don't interfere with the valve operation.

I swear by different thicknesses of PTFE for making gaskets, it seems to have no bad faults at all, only good, when used in this context.

So getting a piece of 0.015" thick of about the correct size, the OD of the head was marked on it and the centre found.

Take note of the real el cheapo compass cutter that was bought for a couple of squid a few years ago off a market stall, for cutting these circular gaskets, I just couldn't live without it.




I used to really struggled trying to cut circles with this cutter until I found this method.
I stick both the centre pin and blade thru the material and into the wood underneath (not too deep) and holding onto the top of the compass to keep it steady, I rotate the gasket material against the cutter blade, rather than trying to use the compass like you would normally use it.




If you get your blade to pin measurement to size, and cut it how I have shown, you should end up with a perfectly fitting gasket.




The next trick is using another indispensable bit of kit for use in the workshop, transfer punches. I have duplicate sets of these in Imperial, metric, number and letter sizes. I use them not only in their guise as transfer punches, but also used instead of drill blanks, which are very expensive indeed. In fact, all my sets of my transfer punches added together only came to the price of one set of good quality drill blanks. How accurate do you really need to be in the home shop, these are well within 0.001" of drill blanks, if not even closer.

The gasket material is slightly transparent, so it was easy to align the top and bottom holes up, then it was just a matter of pushing the correct size pointed transfer punch down the hole until it marked the gasket.





I didn't push hard at all, but all holes are well marked up, and in an accurate position.




The holes were easily punched out with a tube punch, and the finished punched holes fitted perfectly onto the water jacket studs.




Using a couple of general screws and nuts, the gasket was trapped between the cylinder and it's head. The material around the outside was carefully cut away, very close to the metal.




Resulting in a perfect and long lasting gasket.




Once all assembled up, you can now see that the threads don't protrude as much thru the nuts, so that is one problem cured.
It looked like a long process, but in fact took well less than half an hour.




This fix is nowhere near as complicated.
The plans call for either a taper or roll pin to lock the brass part onto the rod. I hate using pins, purely because they can sometimes be very difficult to get apart once in position, this would be just the case here.

All I did was to accurately drill right through the brass bush and steel rod, then tapped it out 2mm. A recess was put in to take the cap head. Now I can take it apart very easily whenever I want, but stll have very secure fixing. The original grub screw hole (hiding around the corner) will be filled with a bit of brass threaded rod, and by the time I have finished blinging, will never be seen again.




I'm sorry I didn't make any more progress to show you, but I have to take each day as it comes.


Bogs
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Offline DaveH

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #230 on: March 20, 2011, 05:55:58 PM »
How to make a round gasket.

Thats brilliant John. :clap:

Dave
(Ex Leicester, Thurmaston, Ashby De La Zouch.)

Offline saw

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #231 on: March 20, 2011, 06:32:36 PM »
Nice I love it.  :clap: :clap:
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #232 on: March 20, 2011, 11:11:20 PM »
Kenneth,

I have never had any trouble with this stuff, even when I used it for head gaskets on ic engines.

Maybe problems could occur if you started to get into elevated heat situations, but hopefully, none of my engines will ever reach that stage.

I do know that they had a bit of trouble on full sized steam engines with PTFE tape for sealing joints. But they are working at much higher levels of everything compared to our small offerings.


Bogs
« Last Edit: March 21, 2011, 05:10:35 AM by bogstandard »
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

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lordedmond

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #233 on: March 21, 2011, 04:35:32 AM »
John
 looks like you have the same gear as I do for gasket production

I do mine slightly different measure the ID , OD . Then I cut the OD with the compass/cutter then follow up with the ID . The reason I do it that way is most of the places I need a gasket for precludes the application of the knife on the OD


toes crossed although it will not be necessary for a runner this week



Stuart

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #234 on: March 21, 2011, 05:20:20 AM »
Stuart,

I would normally cut the outside first as well, but in this case, I wanted it exact to size, with no chance of it being too large or small. I got what I wanted, which is what it is all about.

I have been on about getting this engine up and running for so long now, I am giving no more predictions, it runs when it and I am ready. My work regime, as has been shown, can throw any predictions to the wind.


John
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #235 on: March 21, 2011, 05:23:10 PM »
Continuing on, getting things sorted in the hope that I can get some power out of it.

A few revelations after I got things done, I will explain a little later.

The grub screw holding for the valve lift arms needed beefing up a bit and to get them gripping properly, flats were required on the cross shaft.

With the cam set to give maximum lift and a machinists jack holding the graphite block in the correct position, by using a transfer punch down the grub screw hole, the shaft was marked up where the flat needed to be.




By mounting the shaft in the milling vice with the pop mark at the very top, a flat was cut on either end.




Next came the grub screws themselves. I had been using stainless ones, but unfortunately they are always rather soft and you can soon round out the allen key hole if you give them a bit of white knuckle treatment.

So for this job I went back to my normal high tensile steel ones after I had ground the ends flat so that they will sit correctly on the flat on the shaft.




By the time I had finished twiddling about it was time to try to get some life out of the engine, so by jury rigging the burner in position I gave it a try.
By playing about with the timing for ten minutes, I knew that I had it spot on, plus I had to do some serious bending of the cam follower rod to get things something like.

A few minutes later, I had it turning over a couple of times by itself, and I can now tell you, it is another 'duck quack' sounding engine.

But no matter how much I tried, I couldn't get it to run continuously. Then I noticed something quite alarming, as the cam is, it does not allow the inlet port to be fully uncovered, so the graphite block is in fact stopping the flame reaching the port correctly, hence the lack of continous running.



I am now going back to the drawings and check out all the geometry of the cam and lifting arms. I built everything to plan, and all that has been double checked at least twice, so it isn't my making at fault, but the basic design which hasn't been modified to show what is required to actually get the movements required to have the engine running.

I can now see why, on the engine I showed earlier, they had actually made the block a lot narrower, and as I suspect, they had the same problems as those I am finding now. I don't fancy making a higher lift cam as that will raise a few clearance issues, so, because I have a load of graphite I can play with, I am going to see if reshaping the graphite block will improve things in the running department. That might also mean I will have to make a new cross shaft with the holes in a different position, but I can get around that for the time being by bending a few brass arms.


It's all part of the game


Bogs
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Location - Crewe, Cheshire

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lordedmond

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #236 on: March 22, 2011, 04:05:48 AM »
Looking good John

It makes me wonder if there is a "perfect set of plans out there for anything in the model world ( except your paddle duck ones ) I have spent good money on plans and they mostly contain errors , the older LBSC ones are the worst the dealers just keep duplicating the masters they have and do not update them but keep charging the same ever increasing price .

rant mode off

it is a disappointment to me that the poor sole that has limited skill/knowledge can be put off because of the faulty plans

Stuart

ps got the rampant gas burner under control now thanks

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #237 on: March 22, 2011, 04:26:31 AM »

It's all part of the game
Bogs

"Final adjustment, and tuning", eh John?  ::)

Good luck!  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline NickG

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #238 on: March 22, 2011, 04:56:19 AM »
Great work there John, sounds like you're nearly there and this trouble shooting is obviously brilliant info for somebody contemplating building it themselves.  :thumbup:

I must admit, I thought this one would run straight 'out of the box' though. I'm a  bit disappointed that a design that's been made commercially available has not had adequate testing and the design hasn't been revised accordingly. Will you be going back to Bruce with your findings or just accept that it's just the way it is?

We now have quite an extensive knowledge of flame lickers and know that they are tempremental beasts. However, as Stuart said, the unsuspecting modeller could spend quite a bit of cash and put a lot of time and effort into machining one and not get a peep out of it. In which case it'd probably end up under the bench which can be quite upsetting. Many people wouldn't have a clue how to go about solving the issues either.

The valve / linkage geometry and cam is very similar to that of poppin and from the last picture it looks to be timed very similarly to mine, shuts about 45 deg before bottom dead centre? Apparently it isn't even that critical with this type and mine would go along with that as it ran in the first position I put it in.

Great photos and workmanship by the way.

Cheers

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #239 on: March 22, 2011, 06:07:01 AM »
Before I give comments on whether this engine is suitable for a beginner or not, after I get it running, I will be contacting Polly models about what was needed to achieve a running state, and depending on their reply, I will give it thumbs up or not.

I have been trying for a few years now, in my own little way, to give feedback to suppliers. Some just totally ignore you, so to me, they are not worth dealing with, but others, like Minimag, took on almost everything that I found issue with when I built their magneto, and remedied the problems on both the plans and build notes. In that situation, the supplier gets a big thumbs up  :thumbup:, purely because they have the customer in mind as well, rather than just the profit margins.

I don't know if you noticed the Chronos website, last year it had a major revamp, and I hope to think that it was helped along because of my complaints to not only Chronos, but to PayPal as well, about how bad their site was. Showing items in stock, taking payments for said items, then a week later giving you a PayPal refund because they didn't have stock of the item you had ordered.
They actually stopped me ordering from their site, until I had another quiet word in PayPal's ear, after which time, Chronos' service has improved no end.

The other two 'biggies' in our supply world in the UK, Arc Euro and RDG both took on board a few comments either about service or products that I mentioned to them, and both remedied the situation very quickly, so they get full marks from me.

So no matter who you are, sometimes it does pay to contact suppliers and let them know how you feel about their service or products. If you don't let them know, how are they to put things right? If they are any good, they will do something about your comments, if they don't, just let the word out who the 'nasties' really are.


John
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Location - Crewe, Cheshire

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Offline NickG

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #240 on: March 22, 2011, 06:11:23 AM »
Good point John, that's what I was thinking - they should be made aware of your findings but they should want feedback like that. I bet some people can't be bothered to feedback but if we don't we'll always get a crap service. On the plus side, the quality of the kit and castings looks relatively good.
I'm guessing that not actually that many people have built this engine though.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #241 on: March 22, 2011, 06:24:17 AM »
You might be quite right Nick, I have never seen one before whilst going around the shows.

But on the other hand, maybe lots have been built, but can't be got to work, so are gathering dust somewhere.

There were no major issues with the castings or materials at all. With a little work, they were all perfectly useable and not one single inclusion, so they get a thumbs up  :thumbup:, and for the price paid, I found very reasonable value for money compared to the garbage some suppliers charge for unrecognisable lumps of junk.


John
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lordedmond

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #242 on: March 23, 2011, 03:38:10 AM »
John

With regard to your post on using PTFE for gaskets , I was helping the SWMBO to clear out some kitchen draws ( done some wall painting in WS so as it stinks it is OB ) I came across some thin black stuff that has a reinforcement in it , so I asked what it is , Linda told me it is the off cut from the liner from the bottom of the oven , If it can stand the oven temps the bit in the oven shows no degradation . Would you think it could be used for higher temp gaskets ?

I know its not an engineering site http://www.lakeland.co.uk/magic-oven-liner/F/product/3318?src=gpsol&sq=oven%20liner

Its about 20 thou thick
as I mentioned the stuff has a fabric type reinforcement layer so may be more stable in creep


Stuart

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #243 on: March 23, 2011, 04:23:51 AM »
I have no idea Stuart.

I personally don't like the idea of it having some sort of fabric in there, giving it a surface texture.

When I bought my PTFE sheets, I stipulated that I didn't want an etched surface, but totally smooth. Gases will take the shortest route possible, and if it can fast track along a surface pattern to the outside, then it will.


John


 
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #244 on: March 23, 2011, 08:32:25 AM »
Hi John, it's good to see such progress, and getting to the nitty gritty.  In looking at that engine design, particularly the couple I've seen completed, including the one you show, I noticed the block of graphite sits blocking substantial flame propagation, and my experience with these engines is they are completely dependent on good flowing characteristics, with burners well positioned, and minimal interferance with smooth flow.  I had to alter my valving on my own oddball several times, ending up with an "upside down" version of the "poppin'" valve in order to get good clear flow, and consistent running.  I'm building one now, which will be posted shortly, and I'm considering using your valve arangement, but with some modifications precisely because I don't like the valve, whether bronze, steel or graphite, substantially altering the flow pattern of the hot gases during the intake stroke, as it is entirely atmospheric, and therefore easily disturbed causing substantial eddies and other interferances which can reduce actual intake of the heat by substantial amounts.  I'm still finishing up the con rod setup, and have the head roughed, and have been waiting to see how this build turned out before deciding on valving.  I'm wondering if you should have your valve going up, above the port, for the opening, giving the flame a less impeded flow than going over the block.  I suspect this is also why others have rounded the graphite block or put forty fives on the corners, to lessen the flow interferance.  Other than difficulties in starting, it has turned out very nicely, and I think you will easily conquer the problems with the valving.  I am looking forward to devising a burner for my oddball, based on the demonstration of your burner design, and it's fine flame propagation.  Waiting with increased anticipation for the running video.   :beer:  Cheers, Jack

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #245 on: March 23, 2011, 08:47:14 AM »
Jack,

No chance of anything soon, I haven't even been near the shop for a couple of days, and it might be a few days longer yet.

Everything you have mentioned I have already chewed thru.


John
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Location - Crewe, Cheshire

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Offline SPiN Racing

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #246 on: March 23, 2011, 11:08:15 AM »
Hi All,

Beautiful machine there John. Always very enlightening to read your methods and learn from the oddities you discover and correct for. :)

I was looking at the engine, and thinking about the graphite block, and the clearance issue you had with the threads earlier, that were corrected by the gasket.

Does the graphite wear over time? ANd or need to take a "seat" on the surface as the engine runs?

The reason I am asking... the head nuts/studs you have.. the two on each side protrude, and I was wondering if you will encounter clearance issues once the graphite wears down a bit from sliding up and down on the head...

Its been a long AM, so I may be off with my thoughts.. but I was curious on that one.

Beautiful Machine
I hope the pain in your bod gremlins leave off.  I Know my wife has good and bad days as well. so I truly understand my friend.

Scott
SPiN Racing

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #247 on: March 26, 2011, 08:13:06 AM »
Scott,

All the clearances have now been sorted, the block will have to wear down to a point where the engine will not continue to run before anything fouls again.

This is a very quickie post as I am having site access problems.

Just one pic at this time.

As I said, I needed to check out the geometry of the plans. I just used basic pythagoras for working it out, not wanting to bring operating arcs into the equation, but the information that it gave me showed that I have more than enough movement for the block to work correctly.

I also reshaped the block to what I thought it needed, but I will have to show you that next time, as I haven't taken any pics of it yet.




This is the reason for no piccies. I wanted to try it out first, just to see if I had my calculations right.



I seem to be gasping for air. In fact I am just recovering from a chest infection and a cold, hence I haven't been in the shop for a while. But within 10 minutes of getting in there this morning, the engine was basically up and running, not too well, but plenty good enough for me to see that it has potential. The sound has changed from a 'quack' to an ic engine exhaust sound, and unlike the other flame licker I built, this one has useable POWER  :clap: :clap: :clap:, so maybe a little generator might find it's way onto the scene.


Bogs
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Location - Crewe, Cheshire

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lordedmond

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #248 on: March 26, 2011, 08:18:25 AM »
Good work

Looks like you have it sorted



Stuart

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #249 on: March 26, 2011, 09:55:54 AM »
Wooooo  I thought I heard a big cheer go up over your way this morning.
 
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Nice one  :thumbup:

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire