Author Topic: Bogs... Is this your...  (Read 18195 times)

Offline Brass_Machine

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Bogs... Is this your...
« on: November 30, 2008, 11:12:49 AM »
Mill?



HERE or HERE

After reading your post in Bernd's thread, I have been giving more thought to it. I was originally thinking about an X3 or Rong Fu clone (Like this one) to replace my X2. I can do the X3 relatively soon, but for the Rong Fu style I would have to wait until I rebuilt my garage.

Opinions?

Eric
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Offline Powder Keg

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2008, 12:57:02 PM »
That is the same mill I have Eric. Mine was sold by Enco and is Blue. The only complaint was that I ran out of room when drilling. But I made a head spacer and added 6" and now, No worries. I would highly recommend it. I would also get the power feed while you are at it. A 4" vice and a 10" rotary table fit on it pretty good, in case you are wondering. I was wanting to up grade it to CNC. Maybe someday?

Here is the spacer that I made.


If you have any more questions please ask;o)

Later, Wes
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A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

bogstandard

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2008, 05:36:45 PM »
No Eric,

In the UK, the one you showed is called a 626. 6" x 26" table. That is the one I did a lot of research about, and was going to buy one, until some extra cash came along.

http://www.chesteruk.net/store/626_turret_mill.htm



The one I eventually purchased is called the 836. 8" x 36" table, like a 3/4 sized Bridgeport.

http://www.chesteruk.net/store/836_turret_mill.htm

But I had extra power feeds factory fitted to help me move things about.



John

Offline CrewCab

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2008, 06:35:44 PM »
I've got to say guys ........... imho ........ the 626 (3103) Mill is a lot of machine for the money  :headbang:  and if I get the chance to upgrade that's my current favourite.

CC

bogstandard

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2008, 04:10:42 PM »
The 626 is the step between the X3 and a Bridgy or clone.

It is a very good, rigid machine, and can do most of what a Bridgy can do, except it has the mill/drill type of head with belt change. But in my mind, using that type of head is no problem, and they are basically bomb proof.

If I honestly had the choice, and I did, I would have gone for the 626 instead of the X3.

Have a read here, this chappie has one, and if you troll his site, you can see all the mods he has done.

http://www.homepages.mcb.net/howe/NewsBuynewMill.htm

John


Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2008, 06:42:32 PM »
Very cool.

I do like that machine and may get it. I am supposed to get a bonus in 3 months... so who knows.  :smart:

Eric
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Offline transcendentalnumber

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2008, 01:31:49 PM »
Eric, I found this link: http://www.benchtest.com/w-grizz.html . Perhaps it may be useful to you.

bogstandard

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2008, 01:51:16 PM »
Transcend,

That chappie has a definite fetish for hand scraping and perfection  :whip:(look at what he is doing to his surface grinder). He is trying to produce a metrology milling machine out of a workshop one, no wonder he is coming up with all sorts of problems. If he wanted a very high accuracy machine, he should expect to pay high accuracy prices (maybe 2000% more).

I still believe this machine is about great value for money. OK it might need a bit of tweaking, as all these machines do, but IMHO he has gone way over the top.

John


Offline CrewCab

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2008, 02:32:31 PM »
transcendentalnumber ................ welcome to the forum,  :thumbup:

CC

Offline Darren

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2008, 02:48:02 PM »
Does anyone know of a site that details scraping, always wondered how it is done, not really scraping is it, more like chiseling off the high spots...

Or have I mis-understood?

Hi Transcend  :wave: we seem to be gathering new members daily at the mo, how do you all find your way here, just curious...



You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2008, 07:31:50 PM »
Thanks for the link transcend.

Welcome to the club! Post up an intro!

Eric
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2008, 10:30:54 AM »
Does anyone know of a site that details scraping, always wondered how it is done, not really scraping is it, more like chiseling off the high spots...

Don't know of any sites. Your right about about removing the high spots. But it's a bit more than that. My Dad was good at "scrapping in" as they call it. One reason is to make a surface level. The other is to fit parts together accuratley and square to each other. The getting them square to each other is the hard part of scrapping. You also need a flat surface to rub on the part your are going to srcape to see where the high spots are. It would be easier to show you than to type  this all out.

Scrapping is mainly used to make a machine perfect, like blue printing an engine for a car. It's something that the model maker really doesn't need to do.

Bernd
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bogstandard

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2008, 12:33:47 PM »
You will also find that a scraped suface will usually last a lot longer than a ground bed. The reason being, all the little indentations when scraping is carried out, retains oil in them, so there is always a fluid surface for the ways to ride on. Engine turning is another way, even though nowadays it is used more for decorative effect, it retains oil in the minute scratches produced by the process.

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2008, 02:26:30 PM »
I took a large flat carbide tip to a chunk of steel, fixed it to a "handle", but whilst I could remove metal ok, it seemed to scratch more than scrape.

Would like to give it a try another time maybe, got enough on me plate at the mo.  :D
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bogstandard

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2008, 04:12:02 PM »
Darren,

Carbide is no use, either carbon steel or HSS, both fully hardened. You can buy scapers, but it is easy enough to make your own out of old files, just grind the teeth off without overheating it (angle grinder with a metal cutting disc does a good job). then just keep the end slightly radiused acrosswise, and a nice sharp scraping edge. You will also need a large completely flat surface to transfer the engineers blue (not marking blue) to the surface to be scraped.

John

Offline Bernd

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2008, 04:46:25 PM »
I'll add a bit more to what Bogs said. Were I used to work they used carbide scrapers. But as Bogs said use HSS or carbon steel.

Scarpping steel is tough. Scarpping is mostly done on cast iron. Because of cast irons make up it actually flakes were as steel doesn't. That's why the scratches in the steel. Next time try a bit of cast iron to scrape.

Bernd
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Offline Darren

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2008, 05:22:04 PM »
Remind me John, did you not say to me in your workshop that you can't get a really sharp edge on carbide but you can HSS?

That would explain it

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bogstandard

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2008, 06:39:29 PM »
Darren,

You can get solid carbide that will sharpen up like a razor, and keep its edge, milling cutters and brazed lathe bits are just two examples, but they chip very easily, replaceable tips are usually made by a pressure and heat process and don't need a very sharp edge for what they do. I can't go into deep details because I don't know the full story behind moulded carbide, maybe someone in the know could elaborate a little more.
All I can say is that in all the years I have worked on machinery, we always used steel scrapers (as I said, old files, or bought curved ones for scaping bearings), and have never seen one either made of, or edged with tungsten. Maybe they are available, but I have never come across any.

As Bernd said, usually scraping is done on cast iron or cast steel, and bearings, either white metal or bronze (both very soft materials).

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2008, 06:54:05 PM »
Ah, ok John, thanks for the clarification. Yes pressure moulding would be hard to get an edge with.

Might be an interesting exercise if it was ever needed. I think the machine would have to be worth the effort though.
Talking of which, that chap with the grinder, do you think he went a bit far? First use and it would be out again by his standards !!

Still, as long as he enjoyed doing it, seemed to  :dremel:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline rleete

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2008, 09:11:13 PM »
My very first real job was a summer stint at Hardinge Brothers in Elmira.  At the time (early 80's), they were building the Superslant lathe.  There were old-timers there that hand scraped ways, and could get them within millionths of an inch flat and true.  They all looked to be well past retirement age back then, and I'm sure none of them are around today.
Creating scrap, one part at a time

bogstandard

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2008, 10:37:21 PM »
rleete,

That is a major problem nowadays, everyone thinks that hi tech machining will give perfect results, in a lot of cases yes, but under certain circumstances hand finishing is required, we would call it fitting. Now all these old codgers are gone, the art of fitting is getting very rare to find in industry any more.

I remember visiting Dowty Rotol in the late 60's, and they employed disabled ex military fitters to flatten platens that went into powered controls for aircraft. They used a combination of three things, a 2ft diameter DTI, a polished oblong of glass and the Radio Times newspaper. The glass was placed on the top of the platten and a light shone from one end, this generated internal rays of light, similar to Newton rings, only straight, that if it sat over a high spot would 'bend' the beams of light. The shown high spot on the platen was gently rubbed on the paper and the results were checked again under the glass block. The DTI was the rough check, it was the bending light beams that gave the super accuracy. They reckoned that the Radio Times had the perfect abrasive surface for what they were doing, all others were tried, but gave mediocre results. Those people were working, in my estimation, to millionths of an inch.
These plattens were made to have the hand fitted surfaces sliding against each other, and when up to 2,500psi of hydraulics were applied, like a slide valve in a steam engine, no sideways leakage occured, but still allowed the plattens to ride face to face.

Such skill is a dying art form.

John

Offline transcendentalnumber

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2008, 10:19:18 AM »
This is a pretty interesting book: http://www.machinetoolpublications.com .

Offline Bernd

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2008, 11:03:15 AM »
John,

The company I used to work for used carbide scrappers. The blades were about an inch wide and about one and a half inches long. They fit in a holder that looked like a very large file. The carbide was held in place just as a carbide tool would be on the lathe tool. My Dad's got one if and when I find it I'll take a pic. The carbide was ground on a diamond wheel grinder with the table set at about 1 or 2 degree. This gave two very sharp cornered scrapping surfaces per carbide scrapper.

Also what you described was what we called an "optical flat". That was mainly used in the tool room were my Dad worked and was reserved for lapping components totaly flat.

Bernd
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bogstandard

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2008, 12:21:22 PM »
Thanks for that Bernd.

There is always someone who can give you the correct information if you just ask. I have never seen carbide scrapers, hence the request if they did exist.

Thanks

John

Offline kellswaterri

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2008, 02:37:55 PM »
Hello all,...a little off topic, but the reference to ''scrapeing'' brought to mind this...does any one know what was meant by the terms ''spring'' and ''draw'' when fitting and scrapeing main shell bearings to a crankshaft on full size engines...now That was Real ''scrapeing''
All the best for now,
                           John.

Offline Bernd

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2008, 12:30:25 PM »
Bogs,

While looking for something else today I came acroos one of those carbide blades I told you about.

This first pick shows that it's 25.49mm wide. You'll notice that they brazed two pieces back to back and that there is a slight curve to the cutting edge.



The piece has the cutting edge facing the viewer. Notice that what looks like a ridge running along down the center of the cutting adge. If viewed from the side it would look like the pitch of a roof, only alot shallower.


Clear as mud, right?  :D

Ok, a Crap-O-Cad


Next I'll have to find the handle that this goes into.

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

bogstandard

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2008, 02:25:01 PM »
Bernd,

What are you doing by using a pirated copy of my crap-o-cad? I think you will be getting a letter from my lawyers.

But getting back to important issues. Yes, I fully understand now, but as I said, I had never seen one before, and now I have, many thanks.

More information to be stored in the already overflowing brain cell.

Bogs

Offline Bernd

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Re: Bogs... Is this your...
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2008, 02:31:01 PM »
Bernd,

What are you doing by using a pirated copy of my crap-o-cad? I think you will be getting a letter from my lawyers.


Bogs

Dag nabit, I thought I was using the public version.  :hammer: No wonder I con't find the coloured pens.  :lol:

Bernd

P.S. As soon as I find the holder for those bit's I'll post a pic.
Route of the Black Diamonds