Author Topic: SOLDERING BRASS (Read 15812 times)

allanchrister · « **on:** June 13, 2011, 04:16:41 AM »

Hi Guys,

Enjoying working with brass, but soldering the stuff is something new to me. I'm building a clock (The Strutt Epicyclic) and am now in the process of assembling the dial. This comprises outer and inner rings grooved to take the brass numerals. The numerals are quite thin - about 0.5mm, and have to be soldered into grooves in the 2 rings.

My problem is that the instruction book recommends 'silver' solder, and I have had a try with Silvabrite which has been a disaster. The silver solders I have apparently have a melting point of 440F and above, which is way too hot for such thin numerals, and the brass dials which conduct heat away very quickly. I then found out about 'TIX' low melting point (275F, but tough) solder, which is supposed to be ideal, but here in Germany I can't find a source. The UK supplier I found (Midway) would not sell it to me in Germany, and finding a UK source is very hard, but apparently there are other manufacturers who sell something similar.

My question is - are there other suitable low melting point 'harder' solders that would be OK to use? ... and can anyone recommend a UK supplier??

Thanks,

Allan

raynerd · « **Reply #1 on:** June 13, 2011, 04:21:58 AM »

Hello, it would be great to see some pictures of your clock! I`ve just started building Woodwards Gearless over in the project logs section.

http://www.cupalloys.co.uk/ is an excellent source for silver solder - I`m still learning to silver solder but I`ve had no problems at all using their 842 with their general silver solder flux. I believe there is one called easyflo which many on here talk about and I`m sure they`ll chime in with info about.

Just curious - why the need for silver solder? I can`t imagine it is going to work at very high temp and I`m pretty sure there won`t be huge forces acting on the dial. Can you not just soft solder?

Chris

raynerd · « **Reply #2 on:** June 13, 2011, 04:25:53 AM »

Just googled the clock and understand what you mean about the dial and how it is put together. I`d go for using a standard propane torch, 842 silver solder and flux. With it being so thin, it`ll not take much heating and with sufficient heat and flux, it`ll only take a dab of silver solder on the joints and you will secure the numbers in place. Using silver solder, I expect you`ll have to aim your flame at the joints and as it has a higher melting point, I expect you`ll be able to get it so that only the bit your aiming at will be melting - so hopefully the rest won`t melt free when your doing another joint. With soft solder, I expect the heat would cause them all to keep melting as your working your way around.

Only my thoughts.... many on here will come in with much much more experience than me.

Chris

allanchrister · « **Reply #3 on:** June 13, 2011, 04:57:55 AM »

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your recommendation and I did go to Cupalloys.

Unfortunately, their 842 silver solder has an extremely high (for clock work) melting point in the region of 610C .... the TIX I previously mentioned has a melting point of about 140C and the Silvabrite i used, which did not work (melted the numerals due to their thin-ness!) has a melting point of about 225C. With the lower melting point solders, the heat transfer around the dial is much less and can be resolved using heat sinks. I think the 842, is used for model loco boilers, and although being their lowest melting point silver solder, is not suitable for more delicate clock work.

So ... I need a high strength low melting point solder, from a UK supplier who will send to me in Germany, with a melting point of abou 150C or less. Anyone used TIX ??? I guess that the 'straight' non-specific silver solder recommendation may be incorrect, although TIX, I understand, is 96% tin and 4% silver...

At the moment, there is really nothing to photograph...the dial seemed to be the most complex and detailed part, so I decided to get that done and out of the way first. The soldering job was not pretty.....and I'm not too proud to show it at the moment - when I've finished the dial - maybe. Smiths instruction book is really good, but it seems like a lifetime job!!

Thanks,

Allan

raynerd · « **Reply #4 on:** June 13, 2011, 06:14:58 AM »

Sorry Allan, I see.

Just curious, why does it need to be of high strength? I`m not clear why silver solder is needed and why they can`t just be soft soldered.There is no strain on them is there?

Chris

modeldozer · « **Reply #5 on:** June 13, 2011, 06:35:07 AM »

Hi,

Rothenberger sell a high tin solder used as leadfree alternative for soldering copper plumbing. Might be availeble at plumber suppliers.

Abraham

krv3000 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 13, 2011, 06:38:39 AM »

HI just think you may have the rong type of solder in mind you can get low melting point solder with silver in it this type of solder is known as hi temp soft solder a bit confusing basikeley its the same stuff that you billd pcb's with but with a hier melting pont you dont youse a flame just a big soldring iron the new led free soft solder has a hier melting pont to dont no but is ther a cumpaney calld RS in your cuntrey they shud stock wate you need hope this helps

andyf · « **Reply #7 on:** June 13, 2011, 09:01:18 AM »

Quote from: craynerd on June 13, 2011, 06:14:58 AM

....Just curious, why does it need to be of high strength? I`m not clear why silver solder is needed and why they can`t just be soft soldered.There is no strain on them is there?

Chris

I'm puzzled too, Chris. With numerals only 0.5mm/20 thou thick, anything more than a soft (plumbing or electrical) solder joint at their heads and feet would seem like overkill. The numerals seem to have serifs top and bottom, so if those are to be soldered into grooves, there should be an ample surface area of solder in the joints. If soft solder is good enough to hold copper water pipe together, it should be up to the job.

Also, there's less chance of (a) distorting the brass by localised heating and (b) getting it so hot that ends up annealed and can be bent too easily after it cools.

Andy

HS93 · « **Reply #8 on:** June 13, 2011, 09:24:30 AM »

I would just use solder paste place them and put in oven for 5 min then turn of oven and let cool slow CUP alloys sell the solder past in both silver and soft I would use soft.

Peter

raynerd · « **Reply #9 on:** June 13, 2011, 10:28:40 AM »

Pete, must admit I`ve never used solder paste but did think soft solder paste in the oven would be the way to go!

Chris

HS93 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 13, 2011, 10:39:33 AM »

you can also place it on a heavey steel plate and just put it on top of the gas ring same efect as long as you dont have direct heat to move parts and you dont get the discolourathion just use very small amounts of solder and keep it sealed as it goes off.

Peter

Jasonb · « **Reply #11 on:** June 13, 2011, 10:51:26 AM »

As the book is American then the term "silver solder" is more likely to be low melting point plumbers soft solder which is silver in colour. They would have said " silver braze" or "hardsolder" if they were talking off what we term silversolder. In which case tin the back of the numbers and sweat them onto the clock face.

Comsol is somewhere between the two, harder but lower melting point at 305 deg C

The one thing with teh soft solder paste is it does have quite a corrosive flux, any trapped under the numbers could leach out over time and discolour the clockface

Jason

PTsideshow · « **Reply #12 on:** June 13, 2011, 11:45:39 AM »

Quote from: Jasonb on June 13, 2011, 10:51:26 AM

As the book is American then the term "silver solder" is more likely to be low melting point plumbers soft solder which is silver in colour. They would have said " silver braze" or "hardsolder" if they were talking off what we term silversolder.
Jason

Don't know were you have come up with that information. But in everything book or plans I have read silver solder means just that if they are referring to soft solder or plumbing solder they say that. Or they use hard solder, in jewelry there are 4 general terms used to describe silver solders.

Extra-easy 690°C 1274°F
Easy 715° 1319°
Medium 735° 1355°
Hard 750° 1382°

soft solder for brass is generally an alloy of 66% tin/34% lead

hard solders made for soft brass is 78% zinc/22%copper
hard brass is 55% zinc/45%copper

So most any plumbing solder or the Tix low temp sold work, as been stated go lightly on the fluxes and clean the brass up very well and then don't touch the surface as to transfer any skin oils.

allanchrister · « **Reply #13 on:** June 13, 2011, 02:51:49 PM »

Thanks for all the responses, and the ideas.

It seems like there is a cupalloy material that would work as it has a melting point of 145C - called, strangely enough, LT145. I'll call them tomorrow and find out of they will send a couple of metres to Germany tomorrow. Can't use the paste and put it in the oven, as the numbers have to be put in the dial rings in pairs, and each pair centres the inner dial ring as you go. I have some of the solder paste in any case, and that has a high melting point as well, although that was silver bearing, it had a high melting point. I guess that silver soldering/brazing delicate brass calls for diffferent skills and experience than silver soldering steel.

Funnily enough, I chatted with Ian Cobb about the issue, and he recommended electronics solder, which seems like an anethema to me. He said the 'old' clock builders would have used any material they could get their hands on with no worries about 'correctness' and he said that, at a pinch, araldite would do, and the old clock builders would have loved that........

There is a little strain on the outer ring as it is supported by the numbers and the inner ring is attached to the main plates of the clock. Handling and general working with it over the lifetime of the build could have consequences, especially if the numbers had been annealed from over heating - 0.5mm don't forget.

Let me try the LT145 and I'll let you all know how I get on to expand our joint experience of this soldering/brazing exercise.

Thanks for the great responses,

Allan

HS93 · « **Reply #14 on:** June 13, 2011, 05:17:24 PM »

have a look at this they have 70deg solder I think http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Engineering_Menu_Carrs_Solders___Fluxes___etc_346.html

https://sslrelay.com/www.s116360366.oneandoneshop.co.uk/sess/utn;jsessionid=154df67deed4dd6/shopdata/0100_Carrs+Products/product_overview.shopscript

peter

andyf · « **Reply #15 on:** June 13, 2011, 06:51:12 PM »

Quote from: HS93 on June 13, 2011, 05:17:24 PM

have a look at this they have 70deg solder I think http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Engineering_Menu_Carrs_Solders___Fluxes___etc_346.html

https://sslrelay.com/www.s116360366.oneandoneshop.co.uk/sess/utn;jsessionid=154df67deed4dd6/shopdata/0100_Carrs+Products/product_overview.shopscript

peter

Ah, that's Wood's Metal, which has a lot of bismuth in it. Also sold as "Cerrobend", I think, for filling small-bore pipes so you can bend them, then melt it out. Good for soldering bits of white metal - if everything can be held together, you can do it "boil in the bag", but things need to be really clean and acid flux is best, because greasy plumber's flux doesn't really liquify enough at 70C.

Andy.

HS93 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 13, 2011, 07:00:54 PM »

I do a lot of small brass soldering and I have not found better than this for flux Bakers Soldering Fluid No3 this sort of thing

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Bakers-Soldering-Fluid-No3.html

Peter

allanchrister · « **Reply #17 on:** June 14, 2011, 02:13:11 AM »

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the flux recommendation ... and beautiful work on the boat. More pictures and a description please.

Allan

Corvus corax · « **Reply #18 on:** June 14, 2011, 01:36:39 PM »

Quote from: allanchrister on June 13, 2011, 04:16:41 AM

The UK supplier I found (Midway) would not sell it to me in Germany

Was that Midway as in Midway the firearms and gunsmithing suppliers? If you try to order from one of their websites that isn't in your country they won't ship to you. They do have a German branch
http://www.midwaydeutschland.com/
They are often quite helpful there for stuff that isn't listed on their site but is on one of the other Midway sites.

allanchrister · « **Reply #19 on:** June 14, 2011, 04:20:22 PM »

Yes, its the Midway gun people.

Kevin in Midway UK was quite helpful and they do have TIX, but won't ship to Germany as it conflicts with their other offices. The German branch of Midway are most unhelpful, as I said before. If you don't have fluent German (and I don't for a long protracted order for silver bearing solder and quantities of TIX...even if they knew what that was) they just put the phone down on you. My fault I guess for living temporarily in Germany.

I did have a successful discussion with another vendor - cupalloys, who have a similar material called LT145. Low temp solder for brass which melts at - 145C - called them, discussed the need, filled in an internet order, and they confirmed that its on the way.

Cleaned up my dial rings ready for a second soldering attempt. Someone mentioned about the dial numerals being 'serif' or 'san-serif' but thats not an issue - i'm using Roman numerals - much classier.

Allan

Corvus corax · « **Reply #20 on:** June 15, 2011, 04:24:13 AM »

Quote from: allanchrister on June 14, 2011, 04:20:22 PM

Yes, its the Midway gun people.

Kevin in Midway UK was quite helpful and they do have TIX, but won't ship to Germany as it conflicts with their other offices. The German branch of Midway are most unhelpful, as I said before. If you don't have fluent German (and I don't for a long protracted order for silver bearing solder and quantities of TIX...even if they knew what that was) they just put the phone down on you. My fault I guess for living temporarily in Germany.

Damn that's pretty low of them!
If you need something like that again from a German supplier, and have similar problems with them, feel free to let me know, maybe I can help out with the ordering.
My German is pretty good, I've worked in the technical industry here so I can usually hold my own with distributors, and the wife is a native speaker being Austrian and all.

If it's any consolation, shipping from the UK tends to be cheaper than the German suppliers and you usually get better service as well.

allanchrister · « **Reply #21 on:** June 15, 2011, 10:32:45 AM »

Corvux.

Thanks for the offer, but I'm finding this attitude quite common in Berlin. Embarrasses the heck out of my wife, who is German, but as she's been with their Foreign Office for many years, and having lived overseas and travelled extensively, she's gotten used to service in the US and Asia, and the lack of it in her home country. We haven't lived in Europe for many years, and coming back has been an eye-opener.

Luckily, once I get on the phone with a UK supplier, I have found them extremely helpful and sympathetic. If its cheaper to post stuff from the UK to Germany rather than within Germany, no prizes for guessing what I'll be doing. However, still proud to be English and a Geordie, except that following Newcastle United over the years overseas has been heartbreaking....

Allan

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Author Topic: SOLDERING BRASS (Read 15812 times)