Which "first set" of lathe tools?

[yorkie_chris]

Hey folks,

I'm looking at getting a set of tools for my lathe, it's a denham junior mk2, 4.5" center height IIRC. I've had to fit a new toolpost and have just over 10mm of clearance.

Would you buy a set or individual?

I've been looking at RDG tools as they're just down the road from me.

I've been looking towards carbide inserts, good choice to start with?
They do a couple of sets as well as similar individually:
http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/Indexable_Lathe_Tool_Sets.html


Any thoughts, comments or recommendations?

[John Hill]

I spent good money on insert lathe tools when I got my lathe but later decided that HSS will be my tooling from now on!

If you are just starting with a lathe I suggest getting some HSS and learning how to grind your tools, it is not difficult, much cheaper than the insert tools and often does a better job on home shop type tasks. 

IMHO of course!

[mike os]

the above is OK... I would go with a left hand insert tool for roughing out though

[Miner]

A lesson that took me years to learn. All HSS and Carbide are NOT equal in quality and durability. Good high quality HSS and Carbide costs good money. The trade off or payback is they give far better surface finishes and last far longer. I wasted a lot of money figuring cheap HSS and Carbide was somehow saving me money. The realitys are, It's the high quality cutting tools that are cheapest in the long term. There's really is no such thing as a good durable cheap cutting tool. That goes for even buying HSS blanks that you intend to sharpen into your own cutting tool shape. The good companys that produce these products have been around a long time. They know what works and have survived in business that long because of what industry judges to be a good product that is well worth the money verses performance. I sure wish I knew years ago what I know now about this.

Pete

[-steves-]

A lesson that took me years to learn. All HSS and Carbide are NOT equal in quality and durability. Good high quality HSS and Carbide costs good money. The trade off or payback is they give far better surface finishes and last far longer. I wasted a lot of money figuring cheap HSS and Carbide was somehow saving me money. The realitys are, It's the high quality cutting tools that are cheapest in the long term. There's really is no such thing as a good durable cheap cutting tool. That goes for even buying HSS blanks that you intend to sharpen into your own cutting tool shape. The good companys that produce these products have been around a long time. They know what works and have survived in business that long because of what industry judges to be a good product that is well worth the money verses performance. I sure wish I knew years ago what I know now about this.

Pete

Pete, would you be so kind as to share your thoughts on these long term businesses that produce good quality blanks, so newbies like me can have a look please  Hopefully it will save me finding out the hard way in a few years time ..

[Fergus OMore]

Can I step in please? I'm sure that the Good Peter will agree.

Frankly, I'd buy the best tooling regardless of cost. I'm perhaps in a more unique situation because I go to the Club events and buy second hand tooling from deceased estates and from those who have 'given up'

It is difficult to find out the quality of the tools without re-grinding and trying them out.  This begs the comment about buying lathe tools of unknown provenance from suppliers.  I have a small mountain of rubbish brazed carbide stuff- but I didn't pay good money.

Again, the question of how does one re-sharpen lathe tools-- without the appropriate  tools?

OK, I can and do. As I am ancient and very set in my ways, perhaps Peter will add or criticise.

Cheers

[yorkie_chris]

I have a bench grinder and a couple of sharpening stones, do you need more than that to sharpen them?

I don't mind buying more expensive tools if they're worth the hassle. Can you recommend any brands to go for?

I've got various chunks of tool steel but it seems a bit much to start cutting with a freshly ground bit on a lathe I've used very little for drilling a few holes... In at the deep end much! Though I know I'll have to grind bits some time or another...

[Fergus OMore]

Chris,

In your mail box you should have a set of notes- and where locally( ie in't Yorkshire') you can get decent wheels for your grinder and a few comments on how to make rests out of faced chipboard to get proper angles. There is lots more but I didn't know where to send the aspirins and wet towel to wrap round sore heads but there is a LOT.

For Chris, I'd go to a supplier who supplies the trade or somewhat cheekily, pop into a local  machine shop and ask someone for a few small hss lathe tools-- and offer beer tokens.

One of my dear departed mates- who taught me how to sharpen scrapers, used old Allen/hexagon keys and bored holes with bicycle spokes.

He was a 'class act' and lived around the corner from Rob. He made a mad model for one of the  Model Engineering shows with a redheaded old witch chasing a dog with a rolling pin and the dog stopped for a pee against a palm tree and the palm tree bent over and one of the coconuts peed on the dog.

Enough of the past, eh?

[picclock]

Hi Chris

A lot depends on what materials you will be working with, but generally HSS is the way to go. The only exception is if you are working with medium to hard steels when using carbide can be of benefit to speed things up. Generally HSS will give a better finish as it holds a finer edge, also its a matter of seconds to resharpen. Some HSS is better than others and will keep and edge longer, but most HSS is OK in a hobby environment. I've got HSS from RDG and its cheap and adequate. I've also got some HSS marked SOBA which is definitely better. Because its so cheap it's easier to experiment.

I've also fallen into the budget carbide trap and you would be better off burning the money for them because they are junk. I now use indexable carbide tools on steel ( I use Glanze ones) but any good make will do. Try to get a set where the inserts are cheap and have lots of cutting faces.

Only exception is with boring bars. After a lot of faffing about I now use Glanze indexable ones. The insert angles are weird but they seem to work exceedingly well. You can make boring bars from HSS but for me they just don't work as well.

One essential thing about tooling is that it must sit at the centre height. Any deviation above or below will have a large effect on the performance of the tool.

Whatever you get good luck, and let us know how you get on.

Best Regards

picclock

[Miner]

Since I live in North America (Canada) then I'll have to list only a few of the ones I know of here. There's far more than one alloy of HSS. Some of them are exotic enough that they become much tougher to sharpen properly using standard home grinding equipment. I've tried some really cheap off the shelf HSS, I'd almost swear that key stock would have retained the edge far longer. Others were..............ok. I then decided to order some Chicago Latrobe M-2. That's when I finally clued in, There was no comparision. C/L is the only brand I have hands on experience with, But there's many more good manufacter's around. For Braised carbide tips or even solid carbide rounds and squares, I'd have to say Micro-100 is probably about the best that I know of. But proper resharpening for high quality surface finishes would require at least a diamond hone and or wheel. I think it was T.D. Walshaw who said, "It's impossible to get a better surface finish on your parts than your tools surface finish has been sharpened to." Or at least something very close to that. That always made complete sense to me.

Tool holders and replaceable carbide tips, There's far more members much better qualified than I am. I barely know enough to make somewhat semi educated guess's. Once you've figured out exactly what your looking for, From what I've found. It's getting tool holders that are short enough in heighth for your average home type lathe. There's far more selection if you can handle 1"X1" tool holders.
But there is some made with smaller dimensions. Valenite,Iscar, Kenametal would be a few names. I'd use their carbide tips too. Where it gets complicated is trying to figure out exactly what combination of tool holder and tip you need. Let's say for example you turn a lot of 6061, 7075 aluminum. They make specific types of carbide tips for doing just that. So now you need to figure out just what tool holder will fit those inserts radius, type, etc. AND is it avalible in the tool holder size you need. Your also dealing with positive/negitive rake tools and inserts. From the little I've learned negitive rake are specificly for real high horse power and super rigid equipment. Obviously picking a tool holder that takes only some of the really expensive tips would be a mistake too. I haven't really answered the OPs question about tool sets for a lathe, I'm not sure there is just one answer. Maybe just buying tool holders that take your average triangular screw on carbide tips from a well known manufacter and using their carbide tips is about all I could recommend. It would be easy to spend way too much and end up with over specialised tooling that would only do one job.

I'll also add that buying the best you can afford goes for any cutting tool, Drills,taps,dies,reamers etc. You do get exactly what your willing to pay for. If you live outside North America then some of the brand names I mentioned probably wouldn't help you very much. Getting a proper catalog from a large industrial machine tool supplier would help a lot. Most of the bigger and well known carbide manufacter's have volumes of information about how to decide what you need. But you have to remember most of the information is for high volume part production.

After rereading what I've typed I'm not sure I've helped anyone.

Pete

[yorkie_chris]

So for the moment

Get an insert one for roughing out
Get a selection of HSS
Make some angle holding tools for the bench grinder and get some decent wheels
Expect to buy an insert type boring bar


Oh and just for fun the first job I need to tackle is fitting a chuck to a backplate 

For the moment I shall amuse myself by scraping the compound slide...

[Miner]

Chris,
A good carbide tipped cut off tool too if your lathe is large and rigid enough, If not you'd want to mount it upside down and at the rear of your cross slide.

A few tips about carbide. For the most part it doesn't like shock. There are grades that are better for things like intermittent cuts. Never stop the part or tool while it's still in the cut. It will chip for sure. Carbide also doesn't like thermal shock. Using a tiny ammount of cutting fluid applied only once in awhile will thermally shock it. You need to apply a fair ammount or run it dry.

Solid Carbide is far more rigid than the same thing in HSS. That can work for and against you. One the one hand it makes boring bars that are really rigid and will bore far deeper with much less deflection. But like anything really hard and rigid it's very brittle. Drop that same bar on concrete and it will most likely shatter.

Overall carbide can't be sharpened to the same level as HSS can be due to the fact that it's built by a sintering process. Basicly a carbide powder pressed togeather using super high pressures and heat. Some of the newer and better grades can get close to good quality HSS for sharpness.

Pete

[millwright]

Hi Chris, PM sent you regarding Lathe Tools
John.