Author Topic: 123 Blocks  (Read 31312 times)

Offline TroyO

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 26
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2011, 05:25:11 PM »
TroyO,

Don't bother, I have tried to drill them out using diamond coated tube drills designed for drilling glass. All it did was rip the diamond coating off.


Bogs, as an avid reader of your posts that is advice I will heed... you are right too often, LOL! (Hah, as a matter of fact my current project is following the vise keyed to the T-slots tutorial you posted a while back.)

What about working it back-to-front... any chance of tempering out the hardening (At least enough to drill) on the blocks without totally fubar-ing the dimensions? I don't know that I need them glass hard anyway. Hmm, next time they go on sale I may buy a couple of "experimental sets" and bake them at 450 F in the oven for an hour or so. At worst, it's a 10$ lesson in what doesn't work.

Offline websterz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2011, 06:43:11 PM »
Try spot annealing with a steel rod that is slightly larger than the hole. Chuck it up in the drillpress and hold it running against the block until things get nice and hot, then let it cool slowly. You can bury it in wood ash to help slow the cooling  / annealing process.
"In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.  Now the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it normal."
 :med:

Offline Ned Ludd

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2011, 08:19:59 AM »
Hi Guys,
Rather than playing about trying to anneal selectively, why not just open the holes up with, say, a 10mm solid carbide end mill? This side of the pond they can be had at shows for only a few pounds and will cut most things, I regularly use one to machine HSS lathe tooling, which I suspect is a lot harder than a 123 block from a country who has no concept of the true meaning of "hardening".
Ned
I know enough to do what I do, but the more I know the more I can do!

Leafy suburbs of NW London

Offline matnewsholme

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 39
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2011, 08:58:21 AM »
Can one still get Whit dies?
I guess I could make some studs for them.
My 9x20 is the metricv ariant and the few times I've tried to cut UNF thread ( Haven't tried to set up for UNC yet) it came out wrong. I suspect due to mistakes in the lists of gear combos for imperial thread.

had the same problem with wrong threading charts on my 920 variant. have a look on 920lathe yahoo group. in files section they have correct threading charts for every version of 920 lathe.

Mat

Offline Rickard

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 18
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2011, 10:43:59 AM »
Hi Guys,
Rather than playing about trying to anneal selectively, why not just open the holes up with, say, a 10mm solid carbide end mill? This side of the pond they can be had at shows for only a few pounds and will cut most things, I regularly use one to machine HSS lathe tooling, which I suspect is a lot harder than a 123 block from a country who has no concept of the true meaning of "hardening".
Ned

I apologize but as a Boorish Rude American who just happen to have owned a BSA 441 and an MG Midget , I can say with total confidence Brittan would be a country who has no concept of the true meaning of "hardening"! as we all know British steel has an 80% Stilton Cheese filler content. Now Stilton Cheese being a soft cheese can not be hardened! 

Offline spuddevans

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
  • Country: 00
  • Portadown, Northern Ireland
    • My Photo website
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2011, 11:30:08 AM »
Hi Rickard, I think Ned was referring to the dubious heritage of the far-eastern hardening industry, as that's where many of the 1-2-3 blocks are made. However, that being said, my wallet wouldn't want to risk a 10mm solid carbide cutter on even a dubiously hardened 1-2-3 block :zap:

as we all know British steel has an ....... 

It's ironic that British Steel is no longer British, it is now Indian ( I think  :scratch: ) "Tata" steel  :lol:

Tim
Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe  -  MI0TME

Offline Bogstandard

  • Bogs Group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2011, 02:15:12 PM »
Ned,

One of the first things I tried was a tungsten 'hardplate' drill.

http://www.leofixings.com/fixings-products_Drill+Bits_Hardplate+TCT+Tipped+Drill+Bits-10-132.html


To no avail, all I ended up with was a round tipped drill. So much for bad far eastern hardening.


John
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

Skype - bandit175

Offline Corvus corax

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2011, 03:06:54 PM »
matnewsholme
Thanks Matt I'm a member there but up until recently, I actually assumed the threading gear combo charts were to be trusted. I will get those files.

Bogs, I'm sorry about your drill man, but I must thank you for that link!
Those are good prices on TCT Drills. I've been looking for some at a decent price for a while now. I drill a lot of case hardened parts.

Offline DavidA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
  • Country: gb
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2011, 04:45:31 PM »
At work I have often to extract sample material from some quite hard metals.  I use a standard masonary bit with lots of pressure, no coolant (it would contaminate the sample)  and a very low speed;  about 104 rpm.

At around £1.50 each it is worth a try.

Dave

p.s.  Brittan  :bugeye:  It's Britain;  old boy.

Offline DavidA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
  • Country: gb
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2011, 04:54:24 PM »
Bogs,

...BTW, UNC is very close to Whit threads, and in a lot of cases, either mixture will sometimes screw together enough to clamp up and get you going. ..

But as Whitworth is 55 degrees and UNC is 60,  not really a good idea.

Dave.

Offline Ned Ludd

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2011, 05:27:14 PM »
Hi Rickard,
Did you really think I was referring to the good old USofA, silly boy! I was of course talking of the new "workshop of the world",  the land of Wun-Tun soup.
Ned
I know enough to do what I do, but the more I know the more I can do!

Leafy suburbs of NW London

Offline websterz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 415
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2011, 06:17:07 PM »
Hi Rickard,
Did you really think I was referring to the good old USofA, silly boy! I was of course talking of the new "workshop of the world",  the land of Wun-Tun soup.
Ned

Where the QC inspector is named Sum Ting Wong.
"In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.  Now the world is weird and people take Prozac to make it normal."
 :med:

Offline Ned Ludd

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2011, 06:45:30 PM »
That's the place.
I know enough to do what I do, but the more I know the more I can do!

Leafy suburbs of NW London

Offline John Stevenson

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1643
  • Nottingham, England.
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2011, 06:54:28 PM »
In which case to get the proper blocks, quality made you will have to buy genuine Starrett blocks.

Oh I forgot, these are now made in China and to the same pattern as the wrongly made ones  :ddb:

John S.
John Stevenson

Offline Bogstandard

  • Bogs Group
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2011, 09:12:09 PM »
DaveA,

BTW, UNC is very close to Whit threads, and in a lot of cases, either mixture will sometimes screw together enough to clamp up and get you going

John
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

Skype - bandit175

Offline Rickard

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 18
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2011, 12:16:05 AM »
Hi Rickard,
Did you really think I was referring to the good old USofA, silly boy! I was of course talking of the new "workshop of the world",  the land of Wun-Tun soup.
Ned
Hi Ned,
Sorry I have to express my frustration as a Hot Rodder, at owning Stylish good looking English cars and motorcycles that are so poorly engineered but truly Beautiful to behold! I truly believe the last British engineer died in WWII and it's just draftsmen cutting and pasting designs together since. Seriously I'd kill for an old 50's - 60 mini or one of them 3 wheel cars like in Only Horses and Fools, but I fear Lucas Prince of insufficant light (inventer of the 3 postion switch  off, smoke, AND FIRE)

Offline bp

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2011, 01:23:07 AM »
Rickard wrote ".........I truly believe the last British engineer died in WWII and it's just draftsmen cutting and pasting designs together since..."

Don't tell me that Harley's are designed by an Engineer??  This is really a whole topic in its own right, so sorry for going OT

cheers
bp
Adelaide, Australia

Offline John Stevenson

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1643
  • Nottingham, England.
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2011, 04:14:31 AM »
Harleys are not designed they are made from grafting patents from John Deere and the Amoco Cadiz together.
This enables them to look like a tractor, sound like a tractor, handle like a tractor but leak oil like a super tanker.

John S.
John Stevenson

Offline Corvus corax

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2011, 04:59:18 AM »
Harleys are not designed they are made from grafting patents from John Deere and the Amoco Cadiz together.
This enables them to look like a tractor, sound like a tractor, handle like a tractor but leak oil like a super tanker.

John S.

Ha ha. In 1990 I bought and started restoring a 1970 Jaguar XJ-6. My nickname for it was the Exxon Valdez :lol:

Offline Ned Ludd

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 207
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2011, 07:44:34 AM »
If we are on the subject of XJ6s, mine could obliterate all three lanes of the M1 motorway with a smoke screen that would do a WW2 battleship proud. Still miss it, but there is no way I could afford the fuel (or oil) bill now. When I ran it fuel was 80 pence a gallon, oh happy days!
And while on the subject of smoke and Joe Lucas have you guys seen; http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm
Ned
I know enough to do what I do, but the more I know the more I can do!

Leafy suburbs of NW London

Offline snub

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
  • Country: ca
  • Canada
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #45 on: June 18, 2011, 09:39:32 PM »
My 1 2 3 blocks are of unknown origin. I would guess that they came from China. I have no idea what size bolt the threaded holes take. And the unthreaded holes seem to be larger, but too small for 3/8" or 10 MM. If there was such a thing as a 9 MM bolt I would try it.


Unthreaded:



Threaded:









Offline wildman692

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 13
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #46 on: December 19, 2011, 06:21:08 PM »
you mean you guys don't have BSW, BSF and BA taps and dies? Tracy tools still stock them as do RDG. I still have loads of whit nots and bolts as well as hex screws I prefer to work in imperial if I can as left the toolroom before metric came in and still don't feel comfortable with it though have metric everything as well as imperial. 123 blocks are most useful for setups on a surface grinder as well.

Offline sparky961

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 844
  • Country: ca
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2011, 08:23:10 PM »
I must have missed this thread when it was first popular, but since it has been revived and I had the late opportunity to read through, I'm very glad I did!

I really hate to contradict Bogs (isn't that a crime punishable by death or something??) ;) but I have to say that you SHOULD bother trying to drill them out.

To start off, I picked out a drill bit marked "3/8" from my "el cheapo" brand masonry bit set.  It actually measured something like 0.390 to give 3/8 some nice clearance but since that was what I wanted, this worked great for me.  Then I sharpened the carbide tip on my silicon carbide grinding wheel, I've usually seen them in green. "Don't bother" with aluminum oxide, usually grey, as it will hardly scratch the carbide tip!  I ballparked the angle, but it was pretty close to the dull angle that was supplied on the drill bit.

Here's the setup.  It doesn't get simpler than this, folks:


I used a very generous amount of heavy weight oil and turned my mill down to it's slowest speed - 180 RPM, I think.  After I saw it starting to cut and my ears were starting to ring from the "chalkboard-like" sound, I stopped and put on some ear muffs!  Then I went back to it and kept the bit cutting with moderate to heavy pressure.

Here's what it looked like about 1/4 of the way through:


Note that my particular block has holes through all sides so the center is a bit bumpy to go through where all the holes cross.  After going all the way through, this is what the bit looked like:
(Sorry, cell phone camera wouldn't focus this close so I hope you get the idea.  There was definitely more carbide there when I started...)



But, there was still enough of a tip left there without doing anything to it that I thought I'd try drilling through the hole on the other end as well.  I used a bit more pressure this time and I think it went smoother.  I let up a bit when going through the center to avoid ripping the carbide off.  I suspect that a better-supported tip or different grade of carbide might chip less.

The top stud is threaded into one of the existing 3/8-NC holes, while the other two are now clearance holes for the same studs.


My advice if you want to try this yourself is as follows:

1) Have a reason and only drill the holes you need.  You are likely to ruin some bits getting this done.

2) Have extra bits around.  You are likely to ruin some bits getting this done.

3) Wear safety glasses.  You are likely to ruin some bits getting this done.

4) Your 1-2-3 blocks might have been hardened better than mine.  You are likely to ruin ..... ok, you get it by now, right? :)

Fun little experiment for the evening.  I hope this helps someone out!

-Sparky

Offline John Stevenson

  • In Memoriam
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1643
  • Nottingham, England.
Re: 123 Blocks
« Reply #48 on: December 20, 2011, 04:13:55 AM »
I have some 10mm super hard aircraft quality cutters here, £40 a pop if i was to buy them and I decided to open the holes out as well but using the mill to keep the whole lot on centre and rigid.

Just broke the cutter up into small pieces.

I do admit though that depending on where they are made, remember these are coming from China and India the hardening can vary but it is worth taking a chance with a cheap masonry drill, I won't bother as mine are far too hard.

John S.
John Stevenson