Sieg X3 Supper Mil

[sbwhart]

Hi Chaps

The Sieg has landed 

It arrived at about 4.00 PM this afternoon, so only had enough time to open the crates, and try its stand  in the shop, before it went dark.

Spent all day trying to short the shop out to make space it like the little shop of horrors at the moment, you wouldn't believe the size of the spiders I've evicted they'd give an Ausi a  fright    (is ther any Ausi's out there)





Nest weekend will be spent stripping it down, and giving it a clean, I'll post pics of the process.

In the mean time I'll visit John,s "Little Shop of Magic" tomorow night and have a good look at that Elbow engine.

Bernd Making a teapot would count as another project. 


Cheers

Stew

[rleete]

Supper mill?  It makes dinner, too?


Sorry, had to post that to hide my jealousy!  Nice piece of equipment.

[bogstandard]

Nice one Stew, let the hard work begin. But think of all the enjoyment afterwards.

I used to have a big spider that lived in one of the stand legs of my brazing hearth, but since I have had a shop move around, I haven't seen it.

I will get the elbow lubed up tomorrow, just so it looks like an easy build. 


John

[Bernd]

I will get the elbow lubed up tomorrow, just so it looks like an easy build. 


John

I thought it is an easy build It's getting it running that's the hard part.

Stew: Nice machine you got there. Need an index mechanism? 

Bernd

[sbwhart]

Bernd

Ha Ha   

Thats one project I can avoid got a little rotary table with index plates.

But I do need one of those two clock tramming gauges.

 

    

Strikes again.

Cheers
 
Stew

[bogstandard]

Stew,

 



Due to a member on here wanting one, I will, in the not too distant future be doing a project about making one.

As this is a 'patented' product in the open market, I hope that my modifications will take it beyond that legislation.
It does require a rather high degree of machining to get two bits totally square to each other, but I will be showing you an easy way of doing it using your mill and lathe.

Cedge (Steve) did try to introduce another site that we all know of, to this wonderful bit of kit, but it was frowned upon because it made the job of tramming your mill too easy. Being pooh-poohed by all the old farts and stalwarts, who thought that bits of bent wire and mirrors was the correct way to do it. Oh! you were also required to bend over backwards and be a contorsionist.
Maybe they were into masochism and self flagellation with barbed wire. I am not. Anything that makes the job easier has my vote.

Bogs

[sbwhart]

I used to have a big spider that lived in one of the stand legs of my brazing hearth, but since I have had a shop move around, I haven't seen it.


John
[/quote]

Is this your spider John it's too small for one of Mine



 

Cheers
 

Stew

[cedge]

John
I have totally enjoyed that tram tool. It is easy to use and the results are excellent. I was really kind of amused to watch the negative reaction by those who had not tried it. I guess if it wasn't good enough great great grand pappy it isn't gonna work today. Discount the fact that gramps would have killed for DROS and such had they been around in his day.

Steve

[Brass_Machine]

John
I have totally enjoyed that tram tool. It is easy to use and the results are excellent. I was really kind of amused to watch the negative reaction by those who had not tried it. I guess if it wasn't good enough great great grand pappy it isn't gonna work today. Discount the fact that gramps would have killed for DROS and such had they been around in his day.

Steve

I think I was the only who responded positively to that one yes? I am dying to build one... I hate traming my mill. John, make that 2 of us here that are interested in your build.

Stew... You are a lucky man. I would love a SX3!

Eric

[SPiN Racing]

Wooo Congrats on the new mill!!!

  Oh heck yes I will watch avidly on the tramming device. I rigged up my own piece of kit to tram mine.. but it still is a PITA.

[sbwhart]

OK Chaps


Well I made a start on prepping the mill:- first job was to take the plastic cover off and find what goodies was delivered with it, a resonable set of spanners and wrenches and a set of four leveling jacks, at first I thought there was no manual but another search found it tucked away under the bed of the mill. The manual is writen in good English not like the manual for my 3 in 1 in that case English was a second language, having said that appart from the usualy safety stuff thers not a lot in it and exploded drawing and a parts list and a wiring diagramme.





It got some of the dredded red grease on it but I don't think its to excessive, cleaned the stuff I could get to off with paraffin,brush and rag. I;m impressed with the finish on the mill.

Had a bit of an exploration took the back cover off to look at the wiring    now I'm no electrician in fact the darn stuff bafles me, there are far more wires than I expected, I need to uncouple the wiring so that I can get the head off to get the weight down, took the cover off the head were the motar is situated, it will be even worse to unwire it from here room a bit tight. Had a look at the wiring diagrame it made as much sence as a piece of modern art:- all colours and patterns very prity but what does it mean. 



Tilted the head to see if I could get at the motar wiring better, but no, its going to have to be an unwiring job from the back, that I've decided to put off untill tomorrow when the lights better and I've got more time I'm going to have to take loads of pics and lable things up.

Wish me luck
 
Stew

[bogstandard]

If the worst came to the worst and you need to lift as a lump, a lifting frame on the same principle as a sedan chair can be utilised. Rather than arms lifting, it uses the extra power of the legs. Also keeps the back straight.
It can also be used in a fairly confined space. A couple of 3.5ft or 4ft scaffold poles and a bit of wood as a spacer between them.

Otherwise, a notepad, a roll of masking tape (for marking up wires) and copious notes on the stripdown.

I would definitely help if I could, but I would just get in the way.

John

[sbwhart]

Thanks for the tips John:-

I'm going the masking tape and notes way. But before I do any thing else I'm going to put thing back as they were and see if I can power it up to make shure it all works before I start pulling it to bits. 

Cheers
 

Stew

[Darren]

That's a nice looking mill there Stew...I'm sure it'll occupy you for many a year to come 

[sbwhart]

Stripping down the mill:-

I reassembled the mill after my quick look, plugged it in and checked that it all worked, only problem was with digital read out which wouldn’t switch off or Zero, well that can be sorted out later. 

To remove the head:- disconnect from the wiring panel at the back of the machine. Wiring is not my cup of tea so I took loads of pics and labelled and made drawings as I made the disconnections, thankfully most of the cables were already labelled so hopefully this will help reassembly, only had to cut one connection I will have to remake the connector.

 

With the wiring disconnected the truncking was threaded through the panneling, but first the inspection hatches replaced over the circuit boards and things to protect them. The panelling was held on with four cap screws and  lifted off exposing the vertical lead screw.

 
To remove the head it was lowered onto a wooden box to take the weight, the clamping nuts were slackened and the locking lug retracted, the nuts removed, a bit of a wiggle  and a pull at it was off.   
 


Stripping the slides off was very straight forward just followed the instruction on the ARCEURO trade manual for the X3 machine



All the red grease was cleaned off, some of which had hardened off this was causing the rack and pinion locking lug for the tilting mechanism on the head to stick, this was sorted with a quick clean and a bit of grease.



Well so far I’m very impressed with the fit and finish of the machine far better than that on my 3 in 1 this is particularly noticeable with the jib, on the 3 in 1 there as rough as a bears back side.

Well I’ve got the weight down into more manageable pieces next job reassembly.

Thats me done for the night off to Manchester to see group called Kene at the Manchester areana 

And my team wone 2 - 1               

Cheers
 
Stew

   

[sbwhart]

Hi Chaps

Now for the big move and reassembly. 

The plan originaly was to keep the base and column in one piece, but a quick try with the weight convinced us that this would be foolishly dangerous, so the column was split from the base, by removing the four cap screws and withdrawing the dowles, by screwing a M2 screw into their ends and pulling them out.  With the column removed the weight was a lot more managable by far the heaviest part being the column. 

The part were moved down the garden on a roller troly.   





The cabinat was placed on rollers (cut down broom handles) close to the door with two planks as a runway, and the mill reassembled on it.



The wiring is at the back of the mill so the next job is to wire it up before rolling it up to the wall.

The grafitee at the back of the shop my daughter did about 20 years ago 

[bogstandard]

Nice one Stew

Bet you can't wait to get it up and running.

BTW, did you have any bolts left over? If not it must be right.


John

[sbwhart]

No bolts left over. 

Worked methodical and slowly, as I stripped bits off I losly reassembled the parts to keep the bits together or bagged them with a label, before starting on the next bit. Still a way to go though so time yet for a 

Rewiring it up is causing me some worry, 

only way to find out if it will work is to do it.

Cheers

 

Stew

[Divided he ad]

Wey hey!! Fido Dido!!! 


Oh... Nice mill Stew   


Surely a 2 man lift    .... No, seriously you did it the correct way, my dad nearly broke his arm lifting mine    (but that might just be him, he put an axe through his thumb this afternoon , got him back from the hospital bout 8ish... 3hrsin there! minus thumb nail    )

You don't want that kind of incident, that's for sure.

Is it a parallax thing or will the mill not fit under the shelf at the back?


No bolts left over?? How are you ever going to fill your spares drawers? 

Re-wiring should be easy Stew.... You've got a picture of it before in your post 



Looking forward to the first cut





Ralph.

[sbwhart]

Hi Ralph

Yes it was a two man lift especialy the column the rest one man could just about manage, I whipped  my daughter fiance into helping.

You've developed precision eyeballs  to long associating with John, Yes it wont go under the shelve it stands about 8" from the wall the shelve is 10", so the old saw will have to do some work  .

I'm going to take the milling head off the 3 - 1 and blank the hole with some plate, this will allow me to get another selfe along the wall. By the time I'm finished you won't have space to hold a 

No not a banna a dance.

Cheers
 
Stew

[cedge]

Stew
As you well know by now, the SX3 is not a machine you'd want to call "portable" . Those who have not moved one will find it hard to realize just how stout they really are.  If it was much heavier, they really couldn't safely call it a bench top. Glad to see it is coming back to life.

Steve

[sbwhart]

Hi Chaps

Well I've rewired the mill and it works 

The only problem I had was with the interlock on the spindle guard:- I took the guard off so it wouldn't get damaged with the move, I didn't make a note of how it was set I just assumed that when the micro switch was open the machine would power NO it work the other way micro switch closed for power 

I checked and rechecked my connections all looked ok everything was lighting up the motor just wouldn't kick in, so decided to try interlock other way and haypresto we have a rewired mill.

       

Put a new battery in the DRO and thats working fine

Just got to assemble the X and Y tables and make adjustments and I'm back in buisness.

Now for the bad news when I stripped the mill down I found it had been assembled with a part that had been made wrong at the factory and someone had cobbled it together so that it would work, how long the fix would work for who knows, it may work ok for years, but it may fall apart next week. I don't want to post details just yet as the suppliers are waiting a response from the factory, watch this space.

Cheers
 
Stew

[cedge]

Stew
I had the same experience with the quill guard. That sinking feeling is no fun...LOL. I'll be watching for the update on the "cobbled" part.

Steve

[Darren]

It's nice when it works....

Well done, even splitting it down I bet it still wasn't easy to move about....

[Divided he ad]

             

Does that mean it spins like a dancing banana Stew?? 

Now for the bad news when I stripped the mill down I found it had been assembled with a part that had been made wrong at the factory and someone had cobbled it together so that it would work, how long the fix would work for who knows, it may work ok for years, but it may fall apart next week. I don't want to post details just yet as the suppliers are waiting a response from the factory, watch this space.

Mmmmm.... This has a certain ring about it..... Eh John?!   


Good luck Stew!

Keep us posted on it's work.... Assuming your going to use it?



Ralph.

[bogstandard]

Yep,

I have already seen the problem, and Stew is taking the correct route.

If they fix it, all well and good, nothing needs to be said publicly. If not, post a few piccies, tell the suppliers where they are, and all of a sudden the problem goes away. Just like mine did.

John

[sbwhart]

Whoops Stew Thinks he's balcked out the town

I've got to tell you chaps this.

Messing about sorting my shop out when a mate (buddy) called round to see the mill there I was putting it through its paces:- fast speed slow speed tapping in tapping out revers forward etc When

 

The power went off in the shop

 

Ho Sh one T i thought I hope thats not effected the house next minnute the boss was at the door Stewart what have you done the electrics gone off, the people next door were at the gate; our electrics gone off has yours ?. By this time yours truly was in a panic, bugger I've blacked the whole bloody town.

Boss was on the phone to the electric company phew they were working on the line and we would have power back in an hour or two.

Boy was I relieved

            

A happy
 
Stew

John

I'll tuch base later in the week.

Stew

[bogstandard]

No probs Stew.

You can explain to Bandit yourself.
Since I told him you were bringing him a doggy chew, he's been waiting at the gate every night at 7.

Methinks you've got a friend for life.

John

[sbwhart]

Well its been a few weeks since I got my mill and all I've done is run it over under power, I'm chomping at the bit to start and cut metal,

But I'm still trying to resolve the problem I've got with the supplier, sent them photos and explained the problem they didn't understand what I was on about at first, eventually spoke to a guy who had more of an engineering head    he grasped the problem straight away, but said they would have to contact the manufacturer, why I've no idea as they sold the mill to me not the manufacturer and as they are the main importer to the UK you'd have thought they carried spares. Any way they had problems contacting manufacturer as they were on holiday (Chinese New Year). 
 
 Eventualy got an email that said the manufacturer said that you can expect back play, I was back at the begining,  I replied with a bit of an eshit pointing out that back play was not the problem, and that the machine had been assembled with a defective part as my photo clearly showed with a bodge that did not follow good engineer practice and just for good measure I told them I was an engineer with 40 years experience and they had sold me a defective machine.

Got an email back asking if I could send them the defective part or email a drawing, just spent an hour stripping the part out of the machine drawing it up and emailing the supplier back.

My shop will take about another 2 or 3 hours work to get it sorted but I can't do the sorting with a stripped down mill in the middle of the floor.

Exstreamly P****d off

Stew

[HS93]

I gave up with that company after the purchase of a pillar drill everything was great except the casting for the base was not very good , it had the bottom of one side missing so the drill leaned at 15 deg  I got on to them to be told to send the whole lot back , as I had spent hours cleaning the thing and getting all the sand out I did not want to do that, I was told yhey dont keep spares and it had to be inspected first, so I thought for an easy life Ill just buy the part to be  told that they could take months, at the time i was desparate for it to do a woodworking job that had to be finnished ( a load of cabnet hindges on some expensive solid oak doors) so I just kept it but would not use them again , oh and the base I ground 4mm off to get it flat and then finnished on my mini mill. but the concern I have now is spares,

Peter   

[Twinsquirrel]

Hi Stew,

I think we all feel your pain, the suppliers attitude seems a bit irresponsible to me, your contract is with them not the manufacturer it is thier responsibility to get it sorted.

As Bogs said, a bit of gentle hinting that you may go public on this board and others may make them sit up and take notice but you shouldn't really have to do that IMO. Could the defective part have had dangerous consequences if you had run the machine? It's such a shame that in this day and age and especially with the current downturn, some suppliers still see aftersales service as a nuisance.

Good luck, and if they still dont budge threaten to send the boys 'round (Ralph and Bogs)

David

[bogstandard]

Reminds me of a bit ago on my thoughts of Axminster.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=737.msg4450#msg4450

Seems like they are doing the same with you as they did with me.

Looks like a bit of strongarm stuff required.

John

[NickG]

Stew,

I'm sure you'll get there in the end with this. It just seems to take a lot to get through to these people. They must think the people buying their machines don't have a clue or something, it's terrible really. Stick to your guns though, don't accept anything until you're happy with the deal.

Nick

[sbwhart]

Hi Chaps

Thanks for the support, I'll keep at them, 

I'm keeping the ace card up my sleeve.

Thanks again

Stew
 

[Divided he ad]

As I just said in a slightly unrelated PM to Stew..... We could put their stand under seige on the Sat' at Harrogate.....   

Although change the banner...... To something more appropriate.... Like "___'s after sales service sucks!!!! "


Well it would work if we were French!!!! 



Then again I suppose just like David suggests.....       Might do it?   

(of course I do not advocate violence, this is all joking.....!)


Ralph.

[John Stevenson]

They don't stand any of the Model Engineering shows.

JS

[Stilldrillin]

Only just fully read this posting Stew! 

Wishing you all the best of good luck with your problems. 

And here`s me with a new mill. Still sitting on it`s pallet, dripping red grease....... 

Hmmmmmm...........

David.

[sbwhart]

Hi Chaps

Got the problem sorted with the suppliers, Axminster to be fair to them took my complaint seriously, they seem to have had extensive discusions with the manufactures, and stripped the machines down thay have in stock, and identified the problem. The problem stems from varition in the base casting and the the way they assemble the mill at the factory (unskilled labour), I've been unlucky and got a base on the exstream of "tolerance" the suppliers have had a new part made in the UK to suit my machine. 

To be fair to the supplier I don't want to go public with the problem but if any of you guys want more infromation, give me a private mail I'll share the information with you.

Got my mill positioned and roughly leveled and couldn't resisit useing it yesterday I had a Piece of 1" square mild steel long enough to get a couple of T nuts out of, the mill ripped through the Job 0.75mm cuts with fly cutter 1mm cute with a 20mm dia 4 flute end mill. Only thing I noticed was a double cut with the fly cutter when feeding from one direction indicating the head is slightly out of square, so I'm going to have to tram the head up but I expected to do this any way so no problem there

            

Cheers

Stew

[bogstandard]

Ignore my email from this morning Stew, no need to get nasty, now that they have come up with a good solution.


John

BTW, my next project will be making a tram for a milling machine, as we discussed on your last visit.

[Darren]

Why would you want a train set in your milling machine...

Sorry, couldn't resist that John, in my ignorance I don't know what a tram is 

[sbwhart]

Hi Darren

Whot your doing when you Tram the head is setting it up square with the table in the x and y, there are variouse ways of doing this, I'll probably do mine tonight so I'll post a phots, 

you can buy bits of kit to tram a mill up that cost up to £100.

John has a design for making a supper accurate simple to use Tram, it will be well worth following his project when he posts it.

Cheers

Stew

[Darren]

Thanks Stew,

I understood tramming but not a tramming tool. I though a simple dial gauge was used in setting up.

I shall keep an eye out for this thread. Ashamedly I've never trammed my mill as I've not needed that accuracy as yet.
But I'm sure I will in time 

[NickG]

Stew,

Well done, glad you got it sorted 

Darren, I haven't trammed mine either  , it's good enough for the work I've done on it but I really should set it up properly. I want to add some digital scales so will probably do it when I do that.

Nick

[bogstandard]

Darren,

Oh dear!, train set, ---- bless.
Or should that be 'bliss', as in 'ignorance is' 


But until you have trammed the head up level, you will never know how the quality of your machining takes a big step up.

I hope to start next week.

John

[sbwhart]

Few  pics of the mill in action.








Finished T nuts there one of those bits of kit you can't have engough of. Just one tip if you make some:- bur the back of the nut up so that the bolt won't pass through it, you can crack your t slots open if the bolt passes through and acts as a jack.

Checked the slides over with a DTI the one i'm using is graduated 0.01mm ran it along the full length of the table x and y well within 0.01mm on the DTI

Used the same clock to check the Tram  (train, bus, car what ever) it was out by 0.2mm adjusted it to within 0.02mm.





Just got to put up some new shelving and I'm back in action.

                        

Stew

[Bernd]

Nice job on those T-nuts. 

But only two? 

Should have made a few more. You know your going to need them. 

Bernd

[sbwhart]

 

Its a pair of Nuts

 

Stew

[NickG]

Looks like a great bit of kit Stew. Glad you're back up and running, now get cracking with that elbow engine!!! 

 

[sbwhart]

Hi Chaps

Last little job with the mill before I start doing realy close work is to level it up, I'd already roughly leveld it up using a cheap spirit level thanks to John I got a loan of a real supper acurate level. The mills stand came fitted with leveling jacks at each corner, using a crow bar the mill was levered up slightly to allow the jacks to be adjusted, it was a matter of chase the bubble:- get it level in the Y axis get it level in the X check the Y readjust etc etc each iteration brought the level better and better when it was within one line I tightened the loc nut and called it a day.





Job Done 

Stew

 

[bogstandard]

Nice one Stew,

Plenty close enough.
If I remember rightly, 1 division works out to 0.002" over 3ft.
That measurement is all dependent on whether it is an imperial or metric bubble.

Unlike a lathe, where levelling should be a critical exercise, levelling a mill is done mainly to prevent uneven wear on the sliding faces and parts.
It also stops your tools and coffee sliding off the end of the table.

In fact, levelling up your offhand grinder is supposed to reduce bearing wear. I don't know if it works, but it just might, and every little helps.

John