Getting answers

[Bernd]

There are some very good tips in the very early sections on HMEM. A lot of people just ask the same question over and over again, and don't bother to search thru the old files.

The above quote was made by Bogs. He made a simular statement on HMEM and I have to agree with him 100%. As a matter of fact he made a simular statement to me when I was looking for his 2 cylinder engine he had wrote  up on HMEM.

I present this as a fact finding expedition. I am as guilty as the next guy of not searching for an answer. Why is that? I atribute it to couple of things, laziness being at the top of the list, not knowing how to properly use a search engine.

I know I don't want to spend several hours trying to find if an answer has been posted to the question I'm about to ask. So it's just easier to ask the question. I've noticed this happening a lot on the other forum. As new members come in they seem to be asking the same questions that were asked a few months ago. You feel like saying "why don't you go search for the asnswer in the forum". Trouble is the next thing you have is a PO'ed memeber or newbie that now feels offended because he asked a legitimate question. The only solution I can come up with is "I saw that somewere in section __________ . If you do a quick search under ________ you may find it."

The second problem in looking for something is using a search engine. A good example was when I was looking for the picture Mainer had posted of his index mechanism. I did a search using the forums search engine. It keep coming up with not finding anything. I remembered Mainer had e-mailed me so I remember who had posted the picture. I did a search under Mainer and came up with the proper thread. It came up in a thread I hadn't even thought of looking in. Very frustrating. So if you don't know how to use a search engine properly it can be very frustrating to look for an answer. Again many hours wasted sometimes.
I'm also wondering how many newbies know that a search engine is incorporated into the forum itself? Plus a much more detailed one in the header of each section?

What's the answer to this question? I don't really know. That's why I put it up for disscusion. Perhaps some of us more educated in the use of a computer can come up with an answer.

Trouble is, when we weclome somebody new we tell them if they have any questions just ask, and then when they do, we want them to go look for the answer.

Oh well, just my thoughts. 

Bernd

[cedge]

Since most know my thoughts on this one... I think I'll sit on the sidelines instead of doing the brick wall and head thing again.

Steve

[bogstandard]

Bernd,

Normally I have the same stance as Steve, and try to do the legwork myself, and then give an answer.

But in this situation, I tried to give a bit of advice about doing a search, and have it thrown back at me.

From now on, I think I will just be quiet.

John

[rleete]

Another forum I post on (Miata Turbo) has a very strict policy on this, and it is enforced ruthlessly.  There is an extensive reference section, along with recommendations for reading, all sorts of formulas, and suggested vendors for parts.  There is zero tolerance for asking the obvious, or something that has been discussed to death.  Unless you come up with a different spin on something, you are expected to search, and use that for the basis of any new posts.

We get a lot of youngsters coming on posting things like "i got miata i want to turbo and i got to no how much power i can get cheep and u guyz tell me".  Replete with spelling/punctuation/gramatical errors, L337 speak, and with no obvious search on their part.  They usually get flamed, and either learn to search, or are banned.  They probably ban well over half the people that sign up there.  Now, this may sound harsh, but it does make for a really good forum, focused on the technical aspects of turbos, and not all the silly bits.  Most of the long term members are mech engineers, and so the knowledge base is very good.  But, they also demand a reasonable attempt at spelling and grammar.  You want to play with the big boys, you have to meet their standards.


It seems obvious to me, that there are slightly different criteria here.  Sure, charts can be posted, and simple operations like facing and turning to size can be explained and saved in a reference section.  But search engines (both internal and external) aren't the best unless you know some of the tricks.  Personally, I try to read every single thread on a forum.  I may still ask a stupid question, but I think it helps cut down on the noise.  I really like reading hints that people post.  What may be obvious to an experienced machinist may not be to the novice.  You are dealing with skills instead of just parts, and that takes a little more hand-holding than a 'what to buy' type of forum.  "Do a search" may not be the politest thing to post, but it may be that sometimes it's the best way to approach it.  Those that are that easily offended need to learn that the internet is a great resource, but you have to do a little digging and not expect everyone to do your homework.

Also (and this is directed at people like Boggs), there are some whose posts are informative and clearly written.  Anyone spending the time to read here will quickly learn who knows what they are talking about, and pay attention when they post.  If they get a little tired of answering the same question multiple times, then maybe it is justified.  

[cedge]

John
Agree..... it can become a judgment call. It's a whole different set of rules when the user bites after being helped. At that point I'm likely to bitch slap him and feel good about it.

Steve

[sbwhart]

Hi Chaps.

I think one of the problems with this, is lack of background knowledge particularly with new members, people ask the question thinking they are the first person on the planet  to have the problem, so they never think of doing the search.

I have a similar problem with the young engineers at work, they say why don't we do this, (fresh out of uni, thinking they know all the answers) I say done it tried it didn't work, acassionaly I come across a pain in the back side pushy know it all, who insists that he's right, (women engineers don't seem to have this problem) I say OK have a go but this and this will happen, they only do it once, because yours truly is a master at rubbing noses in the muck, the hard lessons you allways remember.

In the case of the elbow engine
       


OK chaps get off the floor

I new that John had built one and he told be about the correspondence on the HMEN forum. so I went there looking for it  (lurking), as I new it was there.

I think the best approach would be to gently point people in the direction as already suggested. Along the lines off if you try this ------------  and by the way you could try for further information to a search for  -----------



Cheers
 

Stew

[PTsideshow]

Hi Chaps.

I think the best approach would be to gently point people in the direction as already suggested. Along the lines off if you try this ------------  and by the way you could try for further information to a search for  -----------
Cheers
 

Stew

Even that doesn't work as it seems a lot of people, their time is so much more important than anybodies else. On other forums I have did as you say! I have been told that if you anit going to answer the question don't respond. Or they don't care, they would like a fresh answer as some of this stuff changes minute by minute 

It seems that the new polite is rude, crude and stupid smart ass remarks! I have become more of a lurker than a poster on some  The steampunk site I no longer post pictures and explanations of tools equipment, or book reviews because of some of the stupid, childish responses and pm/emails I have received. Of course part of the problem is to many tweeny boppers and low end teenages that have a problem with us old farts 

But that is the cycle of life!

glen

[bogstandard]

This has really stirred up a hornets nest, and as usual I have jumped in with both feet, for that I apologise.

But, and a big but, I will help anyone with a problem, and try to find out as much info for them as I can, but I am not about to start trolling about for hours on old website postings for anyone any more.

If after the initial questions are answered, and the person asking the question is still no closer to getting the answer that is required, surely it is up to that person to start to do a bit of the legwork themselves, rather than having everything served up on a platter. If it isn't in the general member knowledge base, then the answer should be sought elsewhere, and as such the person should be told that, ie 'Get off your a**e and do a bit of work yourself'.

I have spent many hours, sometimes long into the night, in finding obscure answers for people, with not a grunt of thanks at the end of it all. Just as though it is their god given right for people to run around after them.

From now on, my search fee will be $50 per hour, paid up front by paypal (a credit note will be given for hours not used).

I am not refering to people on here by the way, they all seem very grateful for my meagre offerings.

So before asking a question, just think to yourself, 'Have I really explored all the resources I know of, before having these kind people on here do a bit of work for me?'.
 
If you are a complete newbie, we understand that your resource base will be very small, and in that situation, I am sure people will bend over backwards (in a literal sense) to help, but helping yourself a little first, will be looked on with very good favour.


Bogs

[Brass_Machine]

This is such a tough topic.

I really don't like the answer "do a search". But... BUT sometimes it is appropriate. Depending on who and how a question is asked dictates a lot in how it is answered.  How they ask the question is just as important as who asks the question. If it comes across like this: "I have searched and didn't have much luck finding it... can anyone help?" that will get good responses.

However, if someone demands an answer, they may get a canned type response. If they don't like that and come back with "only respond if you are answering" type of deal?? I got a ban button here for you. 

I would like to think of this place as someone's garage that we meet up in on a Saturday night. Shoot the ****, have a beer (or whatever) a smoke and learn, teach, share and show off!   

No-one here has is required to answer anything. None of us are paid to do this. We do it because we want to. I am the type that helps people. I usually bend over backwards if I can. But I don't and won't do it for anyone who feels they are owed that. KWIM?

Eric

[Darren]

I would like to think of this place as someone's garage that we meet up in on a Saturday night. Shoot the ****, have a beer (or whatever) a smoke and learn, teach, share and show off!   

Yep, 'bout sums it up for me too 

[Bernd]

Well I see this has gotten some good responses.

One of the reasons I brought this up was the fact I believe I'm seeing this happen in the other forum. I have noticed alot of new people asking the same questions.

I didn't mean to point any fingers hear or get anybody POed. I was interested in what other memebers thought about this and how they would hnadle it. Some good answers have come out.

I can attest to Bogs gentle handling of me by telling me to look in the archives to find his twin cylinder engine. What I found also was his other hiding place, somthing to do with some kind of water foul. 

Hopefully some newbie will read this and get the hint of how things work.  We can only hope.

Bernd

[cedge]

Maybe I should explain my reticence to jump into this particular debate, except on the shallow end of things. Back when Bogs was still on the HMEM site, the philosophy was to treat the newbies with respect and to make sure they got usable and safe answers. Being a newbie of sorts myself, and being far from a wallflower, I've raised my voice when that protocol was breached. It's made me a few enemies, but I don't really care.

That is not to say that the newbie is always right. I believe John best defined that demarcation line when he once discussed the difference between seekers and takers of knowledge. The former is a blessing and almost always welcomed, since they tend to be well mannered. They also tend to appreciate being helped and say so. In short... good guys who are actually trying. The latter is more of the hit and run type, best known for their AOL memberships in days past. The likelihood that you'll ever get any thanks or even acknowledgment of your efforts is pretty much zero. They simply feel it's their right to walk on those who are so stupid as to help them. Insulting you for helping them is far more likely than any other reaction.

The last time I took up the banner to point out Newbie abuse, the mods took no public position at all, until the campaign had gotten pretty bloody. I got several PM's from mods supporting my stance on the issue, but the team was divided and refused to back their own #1 cardinal rule. As a result, I no longer feel that it worth the effort to ride to the sound of gunfire. Thus...I chose to stay relatively neutral on this thread. No hurt feelings, no raised blood pressure and no controversy.

Steve
 

[PTsideshow]

but the team was divided and refused to back their own #1 cardinal rule.

The pre #1rule on a lot of forums. "Do as I say and not as I do". Seems some people go to other forums and use all the bad behavior they claim they will not allow on their site!

When I questioned it I was told that the party in question, had a slight problem with the spirits. And to ignore him, and this was on another forum. Not the one hes a admin on. Go figure.
glen

[Divided he ad]

Well.... I've been in the dark here!!

I have no idea what has gone on with the original quote etc from Bogs and had no idea that there was so much of an issue out there??

Personally I've tried my best to pass on the kind of help that was bestowed upon me when I was a newbie.... (Still a newb' in a lot of ways!)

I've done as some of you say.... "bent over backwards" ....Recently I PM'ed a guy on 'The' other forum who wanted desperately to know how to post pic's and videos.... I directed him here, to the posts I'd completed the week before.... Offered my assistance if he got stuck.... All I could to help him as he seemed lost.
No reply, nothing.... I was there again the other day and read a brand new post by the same guy.... Something like, "I don't have any idea on how to post videos, it took me forever to figure out how to post pictures" ....
I remember thinking "I gave you a link to all the info you will ever need!!!"   Some people even when presented with the info' on a silver platter are still too damn daft to follow it!
Of course.... He could just not know how to access his messages!!!!      


I have also done the ... "do a search" bit, The only thing I do possibly a little differently is I do the search first to see if it gives a valid result (first page of results kind of hit) If it does then I post something like,

"click the search button and type   (the word or words)    inside of   "    "    this will narrow your search and you should find something to help"

Some of my efforts have gotten me complete ignorance..... " Bovered!!!!"   is what I say.... For every ass there are 10 who are happy and appreciative. That'll do me!



The way I look at it for now... It's part of the forum type of life!



I'll just remain happy with the ones I have helped who thanked me and very happy with the ones that are still talking to me  ..... Forget the rest, they are obviously happy with themselves!?!



All my opinion.... No offence intended and no members were physically injured in the writing of this post! 


Now, if you don't mind I've got fun to have!        




Ralph.


Oh and P.S.

that there are slightly different criteria here. 

  Yep, Roger your right..... This place is fun for everyone    


Eric......

I would like to think of this place as someone's garage that we meet up in on a Saturday night. Shoot the ****, have a beer (or whatever) a smoke and learn, teach, share and show off!

You guys is funny..... You shoot poo!      



Stew,

I'm happy that you are going to make an elbow engine.... I just like taking the mick too  ....  (you know most of us haven't the nuts for such a mission!!? Hell I can't even make a hollow ball!!!) 

[Bernd]

I believe we can let this subject now rest.

I have run into almost every situation that has been mentioned here. I whole heartly agree with all that was said. I was just curious as to what others thought on this subject. It will help me as a moderator in case a situation like this shows up.

I would like to thank you all for your input.

Now let's get back to   

                                                                               

Bernd

[bogstandard]

Just to finish off, have a look at this post I have been attempting to help on. Just look at how it progresses from the beginning, then problems start to appear at the bottom of the first page.

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13751.0

I have come to the conclusion that this chappie is beyond help with the subject, and I have signed off and walked away.

This is the sort of thing I was on about.


John

[rleete]

Bogs, you tried.  If he doesn't know enough to understand that different pitches won't work together, he needs more instruction than a forum.  This is exactly the kind of thing that several people have pointed out: ya gotta do your homework, first.  All the tips about adjustable dies and thread classes/fits won't help a bit if he doesn't understand the basics.

[Bernd]

John,

You sure were patient with him. I think I would have walked away from that about half way through.

These are the sort of things I see happening. I guess all you can do is try once and then walk away shaking your head. I know I would. Some people just don't have the mechanical ablity. It's very frustrating when trying to explain to the person how something works and then after all that explaining they still don't understand.

Oh well, at least you tried. Have to give you an A+ for that.

Bernd

[dsquire]

Just to finish off, have a look at this post I have been attempting to help on. Just look at how it progresses from the beginning, then problems start to appear at the bottom of the first page.

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=13751.0

I have come to the conclusion that this chappie is beyond help with the subject, and I have signed off and walked away.

This is the sort of thing I was on about.


John

John

I went and read the thread from start to finish and have to agree, "this chappie is beyond help with the subject".

While I was there I also joined so that will give me another good source of reading and learning.

cheers

Don

[SPiN Racing]

Hi Guys!

I am JUST getting to the water cooler.. as I have been pouring over all th e other threads for some time now, including before I posted and or registered first.

I have to agree that the "Noobs".... not people who are new... but Noobs being the slang term... Are completely aggrivating.

I was/am a long time member of the RX-7 forum. Its called THE RX-7 forum because its the oldest and largest.. and I think it was the largest automotive forum for a very long time.

I got to a point that I only posted anr or answered questions in the more technical sub forums, because soo many of the posters were simply wandering around and posting to see that people replied to them. They would post the "I wanna" "Im Gonna" And "Can I" posts.. that were completely bizarre. And if they were actually serious.. and had enough skill or money.. would make some interesting end projects. But of course most were early Teenagers, or mid 20 year olds acting like teenagers.

The biggest problem as mentioned above are the "I want X amount of horsepower" how do I do it? And then you explain it in great detail for the 100th time.. and they say.. Nah Im gonna go get a (Different car inserted here) instead..... In which case you realise they dont even have a RX-7.


After a while you begin to see who pays attention to teh answers, and who is simply posting to see thier name on the board.. or up thier post count or something. And you start not replying to the people who dont bother to listen to some "wise" words of experience.


Here... Im just about as new as they come.

And I have to say.. I truly appreciate all the answers I have gotten, and or asked in ignorance. Many things I have searched for.. .made some of my own tools.. and suffer from "I wanna make X" syndrome. And when I ask a question.. I often am asking (As I gather you all know) because Im trying to achieve that goal.

A Lot of the things Im doing now.. I never thought of trying until I came here (Light Pull anyone?)


BUT I wanted to say thanks to you all. I get a LOT of questions when I look at thnigs on the board here... and the vast majority of the posters who are building things, are taking pictures, and explaining things.. and the answers become evident as the project progresses.


PS: OH YEAH!!   Searches!!!    Search for Ball Turner on Google.. and or Youtube. 99 percent of them are the Steve Bedair style ones. I never even saw other types till I learned to search for Radius tool, and other variants. My biggest problem I run into searching when in the complete New state... I often dont know what it is Im asking about LOL.
My father is a 35 Year Military Vet. Retired Colonel. Masters in Aviation Psychology, Masters in Mathmatics, and Masters in International Relations, as well as West Point Graduate, Army War college, Ohio State, etc etc etc.. Taught at west point even. Was at Pearl Harbor, and everythign till the Mid 70s as a Pilot.
HE was famous for telling me to go look up a word in the dictionary when I didnt know how to spell it. And it was usually only the really odd words that were spelled NOTHING like it sounds.

Searching for technical stuff like we have here is often like that.
Thankfully, we have people here who worked a career in the field, and although we have DROs, and things to do the math for us.. there is often a trick the machinists used, that is common sense... ..... if you know the trick.


Anyhow.. Thanks again!