Author Topic: Second post and already I need help  (Read 9278 times)

Offline ed in cny

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Second post and already I need help
« on: May 11, 2012, 01:16:40 PM »
Hello guys, I'm stuck on a project and need some help. I'm making a small hand crank organ and have made an error that I hope I  can fix with some help. I made an offset from the plans to accommodate the pipes in a different layout. I though I had made the corrections to everything but as it goes I did not. What has happened is that this organ pumps the bellows off the crank when the handle is turned. It also drives the music take up roll. The connection from the crank to the bellows is to be vertical to the crank. However in my error I adjusted one end of the bellows on the wrong end there by offsetting vertical 2". I now need to drive the bellows from the offset and still drive the music from the original location. I am thinking of putting a straight shaft in the original location to supply the music. It would also supply the crank for the bellows by gearing them to each other. A 1 to 1 would be the ratio that I would need to maintain. The distance from centers of the shafts is 2" so I'm thinking of a 2" OD x .3125 bore spur gear. Here's where I need the help, I'm not sure of just what I need and where to get it. I can post pictures of the organ and help describe things as best that I can but I'm stuck right now. Brass, plastic or what ever at this point will help. I just need them to be low noise. Any ideas? Any help?

Here is someone elses organ and where I am working is to the left in the picture. If you add two more inches to the left of that crank that would give you an idea where I'm working.

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2012, 04:17:46 PM »
I'm having difficulty in imagining what it should be like. 

Could you do a rough drawing of how the crank connects to the bellows  and what drives what.

Is your problem caused by the crank rod connections or the gearing of the crank to the roll feed or ???

Looks an interesting project :)

Bill

Bill

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2012, 04:30:34 PM »
Hey Ed...

Not sure exactly what you need... I am also having difficulty visualizing it.

Making a HUGE guess... instead of using gears, you could always use pulleys and belts.

Mcmaster has acetal ones....
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Offline ed in cny

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2012, 05:02:59 PM »
Guys thanks for the responces. I can get something drawn up and post it. It will make more sense.

Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2012, 05:28:08 PM »
Your best bet would be belt and pulley from the point that will work best the belts can be angled any way they will fit. It is not uncommon for the belt to travel around something in the center of its two sides. As long as there is room to place a new belt on if needed with out to much trouble. :thumbup:
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Offline ed in cny

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2012, 05:45:34 PM »
Ok here are two drawings. One all in black is showing plans from manual. I have made them into cad programs to cut on CNC. The second drawing with red shows the issue. Now these drawings need a bit of instruction. The piece with the holes in it in a line is the bellow. I didn't add them to the top down view but with the reference lines you should get the idea. I hope that these will explain it better.

The gears will be attached to the back of the case on the drawing in red. They ae in upper left corner of that piece. To the back where the shaft sticks out will be the hand crank. I hope that this helps.

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2012, 06:05:10 AM »
Your fix should work ok. However it does reverse the direction of the handle relative to the rollers.

Given that the intermediate 'gear' is just an idler, why not just increase the size (diameter) of the gear, and relocate its axis, to span the extra couple of inches?

Bill
Bill

Offline ed in cny

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2012, 10:09:06 AM »
Bill thank you for the reply, I will look into that as an option. However I'm looking at this with that in mind and thinking that's going to be a really large wheel. I need it to turn the music fast enough to have it should right and also so the bellows pump fast enough to supply the needed air. With a larger single idle wheel that would turn to slowly to do things right. Maybe two? Maybe but that gets me back to the first idea again. The idea of the gears. Bill reversing the direction isn't of any concern as it is supplying the feed to the bellows and they are just up and down so it it's right first or left first the organ will supply the same. Thanks for reminding me. I could have missed that but this time it doesn't bother the build.

Brass-machines, I've looked at McMaster Carr for gears and didn't really find something that would be the right size. I'm not sure if I personally could find the right one without having a box full in my hand and picking out the right ones because I can see they fit. If anyone has idea what to use or could help me find the right two, that would be great help. The book just has to many things going on on the page to make it clear selection for me.

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2012, 12:13:15 PM »
The idler will not change the ratios (handle to roller) at all .

If you have an inch above and below it be should be ok.

Bill
Bill

Offline ed in cny

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2012, 08:25:07 AM »
Bill, than you for the reply. I'm not following you as to how it wouldn't change the ratio. As it is to reach all three places the wheel would need to be bigger there by slowing it's rotation speed. Could you expell your idea so I could understand better?

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2012, 09:04:13 AM »
Does the idler do anything other than connect the crank and rollers? (does it drive anything else?)

If not, then the the speed of the rollers is set by the size of the Crank gear and the Roller gear -  the idler size does not effect this.

You've pushed the crank to the left by a couple of inches, so the idler has to be a couple of inches bigger (roughly) to fill the gap between the crank and roller gear. The idler will revolve slower for a given crank speed, but it will not change the speed of the roller.

If you have room, top & bottom, for the bigger idler gear the it seems like the simplest solution.




Bill

Offline AdeV

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2012, 09:15:21 AM »
Ed,

All the idler is doing is transferring drive from one wheel to another, and reversing the rotation. It can be any size, because it transfers exactly the same "number of teeth of rotation" from the drive wheel to the driven wheel.

Consider:

Imagine your drive wheel has 100 teeth, and your driven wheel 50. So the driven wheel goes around twice for every rotation of the driver.

Now put an idler gear in, with 100 teeth. Every single rotation fo the driving wheel will turn the idler once. As the idler has 100 teeth, it will turn the driven wheel twice for every rotation - i.e. the same as if it were being driven directly.

Now put a 50 tooth idler in; the driver will turn the idler around twice for every single rotation; but the idler will only turn the driven wheel once for each of it's rotations: i.e. your 1:2 ratio is preserved.

Now put a 500 tooth idler in. The driver must turn 5 full rotations to make the 500 tooth idler turn once. And every single rotation of the idler will turn the driven wheel 10 times (500:50). So 5 turns of the driver = 10 turns of the driven, 2:1.

It doesn't matter how many idlers you put between driver & driven, or what size they are, they ratio of drive to driven will always remain the same; what WILL change is the direction of drive.

e.g. with no idlers, the driver turns clockwise (CW), the driven turns counter-clockwise (CCW)
With one idler, the driver turns CW, the idler turns CCW, so the driven turns CW.
2 idlers it goes CW, CCW, CW, CCW
3 idilers you get CW, CCW, CW, CCW, CW

and so on.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline ed in cny

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2012, 11:46:50 AM »
Well with replies like these it is clear to me. I had envisioned it be be reducing the speed, which it will around it's own shaft, but outside speed will travel as fast as it originally did.   :doh:  Thanks guys for the corrections. I'll look into this idea and see if I have clearance.

I am also still looking for gearing as well but seem to find them hard to get in what I need. Maybe I would be able to make the. However they would need to be made of something I can work like wood or plastic as I haven't the capabilities to machine yet.

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2012, 11:59:33 AM »
Hi Ed

You could  make wooden gears    http://woodgears.ca/gear/howto.html 
http://woodgears.ca/gear_cutting/template.html   :thumbup:   interesting site  :dremel:

Rob

Offline ed in cny

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2012, 12:29:35 PM »
Yes that is the site that I got my idea from. I have a number of CNC's and a waterjet for cutting stone and solid surface countertops where I work.  The waterjet could cut the aluminum but it's a gamble as it's geared to cut stone and the tolerances are may to big to be of any use to me. The CNC's are geared for the product being cut and to do anything for most of them would be not work the time. I may be able to use one that cuts wood but will have to work up a program. I also may find that the gears will be to noisy for the small organ and opt for something else. Working with this site how does one make the the size gear that you want? I can find where you state diameter?

I didn't think this was so hard. I though just a quick fix with a couple gears and done. I didn't figure I'd be trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm getting ready to set this thing aside as it's is getting me fed up.

Offline ed in cny

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 01:55:55 PM »
Update, after a good second look at everything going on I find that the larger idle wheel will be to large to fit in with the hoses, front board and pipes that will still mount to the front. It is mostly the hoses and their lay that is in the way. I have pipes that lay under the wheels behind the main viewed pipes. I am reverting back to the gears. I purchased these: http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/118/1071/=hv0zkq

I hope that these fit as the gears are a bit unclear as to what I need. The space I need to span from centers is 2". They are at home now because they were delivered this AM and I have not seen them to confirm. If they are off just a bit I can compensate for that. It's the 2" that is way to much.

Offline ed in cny

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Re: Second post and already I need help
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2012, 09:58:37 AM »
Update, I have finally assembled the drive and gears together. Although there is more work to be done the gears I purchased work very well. I like the idea. However I won't be posting pictures as my work is not very great. I have had to weld up the crank and I am not that great welding so things are together but look shabby. But bottom line the idea worked and is operating as I would have hoped. I've been building the rest of the organ and should be playing it by Christmas hopefully.