Author Topic: Finishing off a 5" Gauge Simplex Loco (Read 79181 times)

Deko · « **Reply #25 on:** August 26, 2012, 06:12:04 AM »

Hi Stew
Glad the little box thing was put to good use. The job looks to be coming along nicely, if anyone can make a silk purse from a sows ear you can. Hope to see you on the club open day, ( 15th September ? ) if not sooner.

Cheers Dek.

sbwhart · « **Reply #26 on:** August 26, 2012, 11:24:33 AM »

Thanks Dek

The club open day is on the 16th I got it wrong I've told a few people its the 15th I can see myself getting well stuffed (insert imotion of turkey getting stuffed)

Stew

Deko · « **Reply #27 on:** August 26, 2012, 03:01:57 PM »

Thats buggerd that then! The 16th is my birthday and i shall be racing my rocker covers,about a mile away.

Cheers Dek.

krv3000 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 27, 2012, 07:27:41 AM »

well thats sum brill work well dun

sbwhart · « **Reply #29 on:** August 28, 2012, 02:32:51 AM »

Thanks for your interest guys.

The more I get into this project the more I regret taking it on, spent the last few days checking out the wheel,axles and axleboxes in the frame, and what a bag of crap they are

The axles are under size and tapered, the axle horns are 3/16" undersizes and the ones for the trailing axle are out of square in the frame, the axle boxes are undersize fit in the undersized horns as well as tapered and out of square, the axles centres should be 7 1/8" what I've got is 7 3/16" between the driving and leading axles and 7 1/16" between the driving and trailing axle. As a result everything fits like a turd in a pisspot.

I've bin pondering long and hard the best course of action, and come up with a number of options.

Option one:- Find a bloody big hammer and beat the crap out of it, then cash it in at the scrap value.

Option two:- Just bodge it together as it is and hope for the best.

Option three:- Split the axle boxes off the wheels so that I can make new, as one of the wheels is pinned to the axles there is not much I can do with them except bore the bearing bushes to fit. As the frame is bolted together strip it down this will alow me to cut the axle horns to the correct size and to get them square and a correct fit on the axle boxes. Then I have to remake all the linkages and valve motion etc etc

I've too much cash tied up in in for option 1.

As for option two having spent quite a bit of time hanging round the club track, I've noticed there are two types of loco's there are those that run like clockwork visit after visit the owners will turn up get them in steam and run round for a couple of hours only stopping for water and coal, and there are those that turn up do one lap of the track then something falls off siezes breaks they lose boiler presure can't keep the water level up etc etc etc this happens at every visit. I don't want this i want something that is going to be a decent runner so option two is out.

So its option three:- But I'm realy getting itchy feat to build the Dake engine, so I'm going to work on the loco until end of September try get as much done as I can, then build the Dake I know it looks a complicated engine on paper but their realy arn't that many parts to it and having given it lots of thought I recon there's only two or three months work in it, I will then dedicate the rest of the winter to finishing off the loco, so that by next spring I should have it finished with luck.

Stew

Stilldrillin · « **Reply #30 on:** August 28, 2012, 05:36:10 AM »

Stew.

So sorry to hear of your frustrations.

It's very disappointing, to discover what just shouldn't be....

But! ...... You know it makes sense........

You'll be happier, in the end. Knowing you've made a much superior assembly.

Been there.... I keep on going there! I'm funny like that!

David D

NickG · « **Reply #31 on:** August 28, 2012, 08:41:21 AM »

Stew,

Sorry to hear about the Simplex, you're right about there being two types of locos - seen that myself many a time.

I agree with David, just take your time on it, there's no rush. I bet your Mabel would run better seeing the care and attention you've put into that ... but being small they will be a bugger to steam. You'll get there and the result will be worth it.

Nick

ps did you get my PM?

sbwhart · « **Reply #32 on:** August 28, 2012, 11:05:44 AM »

Nick yes I did

I thought I'd replied any way the answer is yes I'll be arround and look forward to seeing you. had lawrence Mac and his lad over yesterday to play with the engines and to eyeball my set up.

Thanks for the support Dave

Stew

sbwhart · « **Reply #33 on:** August 29, 2012, 12:42:23 PM »

Thanks for your input and interest Guys

One of the things that I've been strugling with, is just how good do these things have to be, I know that for the thing to go round corners and for the axles to go up and down and for the thing to stay on the track you need some slack in the system but no one can tell you how much

Time to get a grip of the situation and get the bloody thing sorted

Up bright and early on in the shop after a bit of a rummage in the old stash i found the cast iron that a Guy gave me some time ago , a quick measure and whoopee I have enough for the axle boxes.

Next a rummage for some steel to make a puller and cam up with this bit of garage door

Saw it in half then stick a 3/4" through the midle and a couple of 10mm clearance holes at each end, cut through into the 3/4" hole so that it makes a yolk to slip round the axle. Drill and tap the middle of the other peice M10 two more 10mm holes at the end to match with the first peice.

So you've got this

I was telling one of the Guys at the club about my problems and he said the way to heat the wheel up to deactivate the loctite was do it nice and gently with a paint striiping heat gun:- so zapped one of the wheel for about 10 min to get it nice and hot then using leather gardening gloves assemble it to the puller.

Tighten the centre bolt up to give it a gentle squees and slowly she came off.

Repeat with the other axles and the jobs a good one.

This allowed the removal of the crap axle boxes, you can see one of their problems her as they were too narrow and the guys had bushed them with phos bronze bearing there wasn't enough meat to take them and the hole broke through the side. :facepalm:

One wheel is pinned to the axle you can see the pin at the 5 oclock position on the left hand wheel axle.

The next big decision is do I drill out the pin and make new axles, or do a leiv them and make the bearing bushes to fit.

Stew

NickG · « **Reply #34 on:** August 29, 2012, 06:59:31 PM »

Nice 1 getting the wheels off Stew, now you can sort it properly.

I am supposed to be finished around 12:30 so I'll give you a ring then (still got your number and address from last time) to see if it's still convenient!

HS93 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 29, 2012, 07:37:37 PM »

I bet the wheel was pinned because it was loose so it might if you heat it a bit pull it a bit and knock it back the pin may stay out enough to be pulled out.

go for it

peter

Stilldrillin · « **Reply #36 on:** August 30, 2012, 03:33:23 AM »

Quote from: HS93 on August 29, 2012, 07:37:37 PM

I bet the wheel was pinned because it was loose so it might if you heat it a bit pull it a bit and knock it back the pin may stay out enough to be pulled out.

go for it

peter

...... You know it makes sense........

David D

sbwhart · « **Reply #37 on:** August 30, 2012, 04:08:03 AM »

OK I'll go for it

Had a good study of the pin through a magnify glass as i was unsure if it was threaded or not, this confirmed that it was threaded but what size took the best measurement i could of it and consulted thread BA thread tables (this guy seemed favour BA) looked like 4 BA, so they by Mk 1 eye ball put a small centre pop in the middle of the pin, then gripping it in a chuck centred the mill on the centre pop, and clamped the chuck to the table centre drill then a No 33 dril (2.8) for 4BA core dia then drill the pin out.

A bit more heat from the heat gun and a gentle squese from the puller and off she came

Repeat for the other two axles, and whilst i was on a roll decided to go for the crank pins that have to come out on the driving axle came out smooth as silk.

A lot happier now

I can start and put it back together as it should be.

Particularly as I picked up the laser cut links yesterday

Stew

Stilldrillin · « **Reply #38 on:** August 30, 2012, 08:41:58 AM »

Well done, that (happy) man!

Now, you've got a clean start..... With what you've got to work with.........

David D

NickG · « **Reply #39 on:** August 31, 2012, 08:37:05 AM »

Had the pleasure of seeing Stew again yesterday and believe me, this loco will be running like a champ by spring!

Thanks for the hospitality Stew.

sbwhart · « **Reply #40 on:** August 31, 2012, 12:30:31 PM »

Cheers Nick it was good chating engineering with you my Boss just looks at me blank

Corrected the horn blocks today

As the frame was bolted it stripped down easily if it had been welded I'd have been stuffed.

First job from the drawing identify the datum hole and line the two sides up by putting a tight fitting number drill through the datum hole check all the other holes line up and bolt the frames together with some M4 screws.

Then from the datum hole find the correct position for the centre on the midle horn block and mark it with a centre pop, from this centre pop mark the 7 1/8 position to the other two horn block and mark these.

The frame is to big to machine all three horn blocks in one setting and the job realy needs two vices or to angle plates i've got one of each

So put the vice in the midle of the table and grip the frame with one horn either side of the vice, and starting with the centre horn suport the other side of it with the angle plate when machined index to the other horn and move the angle plate over to support it whilst its machined

To locate the centre of the midle horn use a pointer on the centre pop and zero the DRO

I used a long long series milling cutter, its a regrind that I picked up at a show for no other reson that I may need it some time, nows its time.

Index over with an alowance for the cutter diameter and taking 1mm deep cut nible away the horn, index over the same amount to the other side and mill that side out.

A quik check with slip gauges shows it to be 1.247" that will do me.

Index over 7 1/8" to other horn swap the supporting angle plate over and mill that out the same

To do the remaining horn you have to take the fram out of the vice to reposition it, first clock the cut centre horn verticaly to check its in the vice square.

Then find the edge of this horn.

Index to its centre and zero the DRO then index over 7 1/8" to the remaining horn, machine this the same as the oother two.

this is an overall shot of the complete set up.

A check with slips and a vernier showed that width of each horn to be 1.247" 1.247" and 1.245" and the centre distance to be 7.127"and 7.124"

That will do.

Stew

saw · « **Reply #41 on:** August 31, 2012, 12:48:34 PM »

This is so intressting to follow, you have an wonder full tecnic and I am learning a lott.

Thank you.

NickG · « **Reply #42 on:** September 01, 2012, 04:12:52 AM »

Great stuff Stew, absolutely spot on!

I guess that is the same setup if you are doing it from scratch? Leave the final bit of cutting until you've got the frames clamped together to ensure they are all in line?

Cheers,

Nick

sbwhart · « **Reply #43 on:** September 08, 2012, 03:53:16 AM »

Thanks for your support and interest Nick and Saw

Whilst i'd got the frames stripped thought I'd take the oportunity to tidy up a bit of butchery inflicted on them to line up the boiler blow down valve.

They key hole shape just didn't look like, so cleaned up the hole that was far from round.

Anbd turned up a top hat shaped plug the was a tight fit in the hole, when firmly fixed in placed filed the remaining hole to match, it looks a lot neater now.

I painted the frame parts first with a primer coat then a Hammerite Smooth came out a bit patchy but not too bad as most of the frame will be hidden behind things.

Had one bugger of a job to square up the frames I could get the driving and leading axles horns square but no way would the driving and trailing axles horns square up I tried all sorts of combinations of assembly bending and general jiggery pockery to try and get them square, in the end put it to one side whilst I did something else and godgitated on the problem, this morning I had a brain wave, check out the squareness of the streachers, sure enough the face of the streacher between the driving and trailing axles is out of square by quite some margine, so that needs making new.

Also found out that Loctite thread loc is a great paintstripper

These are the axles I pulled the wheels off, you can see the fit was bodged by centre punching around it to make the tight fit on the wheel, this and the fact they were under size on the bearings propted me to make new.

So took delivery of some 3/4 mild steel bar,

First operation with a true running collet, centre drill each end and stick a oiling hole down the midle of each end.

Then cross drill 1.5mm into the oil hole this will make oiling the bearings easy.

Then between centres carfully turn down for a nice push tight fit in the wheels, you don't want this fit to tight or you'll split the casting but you don't want it too slack. The advantages of working between centres is that the two wheels will be running true and you can remove it to try the fit and put it back and it will still be true in the lathe.

I was planning to use some cast iron that I had in my stash box for the bearing blocks but when I came to cut it to size the first bit cut great but the second bit was glass hard I cocked up two slitting saws tring to cut it, it must have been chilled when cast it needs anealing, so gave that up as a bad job and order some material from Blackgates.

Just spent the last two days flycutting them to size.

More maching still needed to fit them into the horn blocks and drill to fit the axles, but thats a job for next week.

Stew

Stilldrillin · « **Reply #44 on:** September 08, 2012, 04:04:07 AM »

I love a good, creative bodge, to put right some butchery.

But....... I'd rather not have the butchery in the first place!

I hope that's the end of all the nasties now Stew........ Onwards an upwards!

David D

sbwhart · « **Reply #45 on:** September 16, 2012, 08:28:56 AM »

Cheers Dave

Little more progress and corrective work this week.

Before I finished off the bearing blocks I was far from happy with the width of the horn blocks, they should all be the same width, but what I had got, was up to 1mm variation even from side to side and up and down on the same horn.

What was needed was to sit them on the front face and flash the back face off to make them all the same. To do this I needed to make a fixture and work out how to clamp the frame too it. For this I used the jig plate that I made some time ago, First clamp a chunk of ally to the jig plate and mill out a platform for the front face of the horns to sit on.

Turn the jig plate round 90 deg then sit the horn on the platform use the jig plate to clamp the frame down, starting with the thinest horn skim it off level, then repeat with the rest to the same zero setting on the mill, and they all ended up the same size and nice and parallel.

I then spent a good day trying to assemble the frame square, (measure across the diagonals to check for squareness) after trying to assemble the frame in all sorts of combination with twisting etc I had a think about what I hadn't checked that may effect squareness, checked the squarness of the streachers, sure enough the front streacher was out of square this was having the effect of pulling everything out so made a new streacher.

Old and new streacher

That sorted it.

With the frame square and the horns all the same it was an easy job to mill the groove in the bearing blocks to fit in the horns, sorry no pic of this

Then it was a matter of drilling out first using centre drill then bigger and bigger drill up to 19mm and finishing off with a 3/4" hand reamer, I marked the blocks up so that I could assemble them in the same orientationas they were drilled.

Drill and tap for the spring hangers and drill the top for an oil hole.

Then final fitting by bell mouthing the groove so that the wheels will move laterly to take up unevenness in the track, what you're after is a nice smooth fit not too tight or the darn thing will derail.

And fitted in the frame

Whilst I was maching I was also painting the frame and letting it dry, toward the end I had to start a new can of paint for some reason it started to look even more patchy than my usual crap painting so gave it another coat even worse

Checked can

Dark Green not Black that will teach me to shop without my glasses.

Stew

NickG · « **Reply #46 on:** September 16, 2012, 10:27:51 AM »

Looking great Stew, shame about the green paint!

You're nearly back to where you were but it's like a new chassis now.

Stilldrillin · « **Reply #47 on:** September 16, 2012, 10:36:52 AM »

Stew.
I was reading along..... Thinking how accurate, and professional it was beginning to look.

Then I bosted with laughter, at the thought of a camouflage paint job.

Three steps forward.........

David D

saw · « **Reply #48 on:** September 16, 2012, 10:53:50 AM »

Nice work

sbwhart · « **Reply #49 on:** September 20, 2012, 11:01:55 AM »

Cheers Guys

Camolflage paint

now thats an idea

Bit more done not many pics this time as it was mainly boring stuff.

As the crank pins and been bodges the same as the axles decided to make new just a nice hand tight fit in the wheel then some loctite.

Then using the quartering jig and high strength loctite secure the wheels in place, it doesn't mater if they are out a deg or two but all wheels must be out the same using the jig makes this job a doddle.

After letting the locite do it curring thing tried them in the frame

i'd put one axle block on the wrong way, nothing for it but to pull the wheel off, with the origonal axles they came off easy after a bit of heat from the heat gun, but this there was more resistance I was ******** myself that I would crack the wheel so a bit more heat and another go still nothing, so a lot more heat and another go this time bang:---

crapped pants:- but it was only the loctite giving way. I supose thats what you get when you do the job correct

Made new axles box and spring keeps and fitted the springs, I was assembling the last pair of springs when Murphy struck, I slipped and:- ping one of the springs disapeared a quick search and nothing:- plan B, clean the shop nothing:- plan C, call CSI in for a forensic search nothing:- plan D, order a new set of springs and its bound to turn up. That worked took a casual glance and their it was peeping out from under the mini wheel lauging at me. plan E cansel new set of springs.

Her it is all assembled.

Also took delivery of a trolly lift to help move the thing about a load and unload it from the car, bin looking for one of these for some time and Dek spotted these on ebay £200 free delivery a good £50 saving on other supliers:- Thanks Dek

Stew

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Author Topic: Finishing off a 5" Gauge Simplex Loco (Read 79181 times)