Author Topic: Boley 4L  (Read 22985 times)

Offline RotarySMP

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Boley 4L
« on: November 24, 2012, 02:28:15 PM »
Bought a Boley 4L lathe today.

Beautiful piece of quality engineering. Considering it only cost the same a new 320lb Chinese 9x20, it was a steal. It is a 9x18 and weighs 650kg (1433lb). It is on the optional heavier gL37,2 cast stand. The bed ways are easily as wide as the center height, and the saddle length is about 50% the bed length.  The spindle speed range is 71-1800 rpm in 12 steps, and I will probably run it off a VFD which will increase the range further. The headstock looks identical to the 5LZ which went to 3550rpm standard. The spindle runs smooth as silk.

There is one decent chip out of the bed (about where the cable is lying in the photo) , but otherwise the general condition seems really good.  Paint is original, and there is only very light rust on a few surfaces.  The test cuts I did gave the impression that the thing could turn a tenth off krytonite.


There is no obvious thinning/wear of the saddle or cross slide leadscrew threads, and little backlash. Everything was a bit dry, but I cleaned up the bed and put some lube on it and it runs like silk. I'll order some proper way and spindle oil off ebay for it.



Both crank and lever tail stocks, and the fixed and travelling steadies are with it. No other chucks or collets. It supposedly has a weird M39x3.5- 55 threaded nose. I'll have to get a 4 jaw, and will probably cast a face plate and ER32 collet chuck. But I'll also be keeping an eye out for W23 358E collets on Ebay.



This model doesn't have a thread cutting gearbox. It is designed with the leadscrew from swarf under the bed under the bed.  Feeding and threading are both with change wheels. Only the two change wheels currently fitted (50/55) are with it. This gives a very fine feed. The rest are lost. I will probably CNC it, as that will be cheaper and easier than tracking down a set of change wheels, and I have had lots of fun with my CNC's 7x12.

Don't take possession of the house for another few weeks, so the seller kindly agreed to store it for me through into January.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 03:37:40 PM by RotarySMP »

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2012, 02:54:44 PM »
Congratulations! Really beautiful machine :clap:

Is it your only lathe?

Pekka

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2012, 03:39:31 PM »
Depends if you consider this a lathe... many don't!


Rob.Wilson

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2012, 03:47:56 PM »
 :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: very nice lathe you have got yourself there  :thumbup:


Rob 

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2012, 04:08:46 PM »
I was surprised that it didn't sell sooner. Small machines are normally sought after here, as no one has space. It was advertised for about 8 weeks in the local version of Craiglist. Since we closed on a house last week, I can finally get a real lathe.

Shame I have to wait till next year to play with it.

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2012, 04:14:34 PM »
good solid machine , and you got  the steady s   :dremel:



Rob

Offline BillTodd

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2012, 04:26:37 PM »
There's a chap (Harold Mulder)  on the PM forum looking for a Boley 4L changewheel  plate  (or diagram & list ). Does this machine have such a thing ?

Nice machine BTW

When you said "cnc it"  I trust you meant only the threading operation ?


Bill  (lathe protection squad hit-men on standby)
Bill

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2012, 04:02:45 AM »
Depends if you consider this a lathe... many don't!

Looks like a lathe to me. And it looks greatly improved to the original.

I have pretty similar, least when it comes to top slide and toolpost! Mine does not have steppers and invertter - yet.

I'm not considering CNC without ballscrews, ballslides and central lube, but electronic feed would be very high on my list. l am not yet very conviced on ELS, I'm having hard time "getting it" how it actually could make an accurate thread with one pulse per spindle revolution and without servo.

Pekka

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2012, 05:37:30 AM »
Thanks for your comments guys. I am in contact with Harald.

If I CNC the 4L, it will be a  reversable change (as it is on the 7x12). I am not sure if that is the path I take with the 4L though. I just talked to my dad and he has a spare set of change gears he was given a few years ago. No idea what machine they are off, but if the size is near enough, and bores are small enough to be bored out, then I might end up adapting that set (if he brings them over from NZ in summer).

The 4L is a very simple machine. This makes it ideal for CNC, as all the wonderful mechanically tricky features which make something like a 5LZ or 1EE so cool, becomme redundant once a computor spins the wheels.

Remove the 4L lead screw, and install a ball screw mounted on bearing blocks and a nut carrier which pick up the existing mount holes.
Same for the the cross slide.
Top slide is replaced by a tool riser block.
Two inductive sensor, one the spindle cog for rpm, and another on a 1/rev feature for indexing.
The T-Slot for sliding stops on the bed will be excellent for mounting limit and home switches.
The motor is a standard, industrial, flanged motor. It is only .75/.9k. I am not sure if the place I bought has 3ph in the cellar. If not I will probably need a 240 3PH motor, and will run it off a 1PH -> 3PH VFD like I have my current lathe.

Pekka, 1/rev indexing worked fine under T-CNC. Since I swapped to LinuxCNC (EMC2) I only have the index signal set up to provide RPM indication and havent done any threading.

On a CNC lathe, you can cut the thread with dozens  of light cuts, and at much higher spindle speeds than you would comfortably do manually, so the spindle doesn't really load up or slow down enough to make a significant effect on thread accuracy (obvious it depends on the desired accuracy). I have cut two M40x1.5 (er32 collet nut) threads on 7x12. It was just on the wrong side of the machines capacity, and turned out ugly on one, and worked on the other.

I think you only need a Px oiling system if you use the mchine for hours each day. I just squirt oil on the ways and screws regularly (like every time I use it). Given the cost of 7x replacement parts, it is probably easier just to replacing things if they start getting worn.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2012, 02:49:01 AM »
.....

Pekka, 1/rev indexing worked fine under T-CNC. Since I swapped to LinuxCNC (EMC2) I only have the index signal set up to provide RPM indication and havent done any threading.

On a CNC lathe, you can cut the thread with dozens  of light cuts, and at much higher spindle speeds than you would comfortably do manually, so the spindle doesn't really load up or slow down enough to make a significant effect on thread accuracy (obvious it depends on the desired accuracy). I have cut two M40x1.5 (er32 collet nut) threads on 7x12. It was just on the wrong side of the machines capacity, and turned out ugly on one, and worked on the other.

I think you only need a Px oiling system if you use the mchine for hours each day. I just squirt oil on the ways and screws regularly (like every time I use it). Given the cost of 7x replacement parts, it is probably easier just to replacing things if they start getting worn.

Looks like you have sorted it out :clap:
I was considering this method for semiautomatic machining (sort of ELS) with a bunch of other guys who were whole lot more electronically versed, but when we "clocked" the spindle, leacrews etc, we noticed that:
* normal capacitor run AC motor is absolutely out of questions if only one pulse per spindle revolution is used. 3phase AC, more "flywheel" and stiff belt drive was an improvement.
* Takes some time to stabilize the speed, ELS needs delays to wait until spindle is "at speed" and some preset distance to "build speed for leadscrew".
* Cutting does not generate constant force, forces seem to be cyclic
Therefore threading seem to be heading to direction of servodrive for a spindle and/or greater pulse count on spindle and more processing power. We did regognized that with tweaking it could be doable, but not as predictable as mechanical solution.

Would love to get some info on your workking system:
* AC-motor/inverter rating, spindle speed used for threading
* Threading dimenssions tested succesfully and failed ones (they are best to find linmits!)
* Inertia masses are hard, but rought chuck/belt wheel dimessions would help
* Lead screw pitch/ratio/stepper motor and current you run it would give great insight

PekkaNF

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2012, 12:44:34 PM »
I have a 0.55 KW (3/4hp),  3phase,  240V 2 pole motor, driven from a 0.55 kw VFD at between 10 and 70 Hz. The reduction is a bit under 3:1 using THD 9mm belt.

The leadscrew is a 5/8 x .200" rolled ball screw, driven from a 1:2 belt reduction from a modern Keling NEMA 23 stepper.
I have not done much threading, and never to a standard in the sense of three wire measurement or gage. I just turn and try.

My lowest spindle speed is 240 rpm (10 hz). At this speed the motor has bugger all torque, so for the 40mm x 1.5 thread you are in an ugly corner between too little depth of cut causing rubbing, and too DOC causing stalling, and too much spindle speed causes excessive tool wear over the multiple passes required.

Basically any smaller diameters work fine, as you up the spindle rpm, providing increased torque.

I use a 3" three jaw, 4" four jaw and a home made ER32 collet chusk. The worst case was turning the collet chucks own thread, as there was bugger all mass. It is a pretty horrible excuse for a thread. I am suprised it fulfills its function at all. Unfortunately, I can't show you this thread right now, as the colet chuck has a job in it which I don't want to disturb.

The second one is on a mill spindle I have been working (on and off) on making. It has a pretty nice thread except for two nasty chips out of the it.

This size thread is really beyond the capacity of this machine. It took a far bit of experimenting to get it done.

Smaller threads like the M8x0.75 for the Proxxon spindle nose work really well.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical_mill_lathe_project_log/103610-my_homebuilt_spindles.html

Online philf

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2012, 01:52:05 PM »
Hi RotarySMP,

Is there a good reason why the taper roller bearing is the way round it is?

It's more usual to be the other way round so that thermal expansion in the spindle reduces the preload on the bearings - I think that with your design the preload may increase thus putting up the temp and increasing the preload etc. etc.

I have struggled to understand how one pulse per rev can work with threading but reading that you need plenty of oomph so that the spindle doesn't slow under cutting conditions helps me to see how it works.

Cheers.

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2012, 04:29:44 PM »
This spindle is based on a right angle reduction gearbox I picked up from the scrap dealer.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=105471&d=1271620622
There are cover plates which bolt on both ends came with a bunch of nice shim. Doing the bearings this way seemed like I could use the shims to easily set preload.

Online philf

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2012, 05:42:30 PM »
This spindle is based on a right angle reduction gearbox I picked up from the scrap dealer.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=105471&d=1271620622
There are cover plates which bolt on both ends came with a bunch of nice shim. Doing the bearings this way seemed like I could use the shims to easily set preload.

Hi,

I've just had a look at your drawing and I can't see what fixes the spindle axially within the bearings. Or am I missing something obvious.

I'd still be nervous about any increase in temperature increasing the preload.

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2012, 01:26:28 AM »
Correct, at that point I had not decided. I have since turned a thread onto the other end of the spindle, and made pair of nuts to fix the inner races.

Beacuse the housing block I am using has no shoulders, I can not reverse the bearings, as nothing would then restrain the outer races.


Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2015, 04:13:18 AM »
About time I updated my thread.

The Boley is working nicely for me.

I managed to shear off the spindle lock pin, by trying to unscrew the chuck with a big Lever, without engaging the back gear.

The torque would have been around 750nm, and went straight on to that pin. The back gear would have reduced that by 3.5x.

I made a new pin, and fitted it.
Mark


Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2015, 04:18:09 AM »
I have also been collecting collets. Got a partial set of imperial collets from Ebay.co.uk, and a partial set of metrics from a guy here in Vienna, who also sold me a Spin indexer for the 358E / W23 / A12 size 4 collets Boleys use. There is a guy on Ebay Germany selling single collets, so I have ordered the main ones I am missing. I'm going to mix the imperial and metric collets up on a single collet board, as the 1/64" spacing gives 0.4mm steps, and I have all the small ones in imperial. 0.4, 0.8, 1.2mm... makes for a nice set. I'll post Pictures once I have finished the collet board.

Mark

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2015, 04:24:58 AM »
There was a excessive play in the carriage drive, as in 180 of handle rotation. The drive handle has an idler to change rotation directions, and the roll pin to fix it to it's shaft was severed in three pieces. I doubt the roll pin was original. This lathe was what is referred to in German as a Fettopfer, a grease victim. It was designed for all these mechanisms to be regularly oiled.

Made a new pin for it which has cut the play dramatically. Once I have the backing plate for my Bison 125mm four jaw independant chuck, I will Mount that housing, bore out the slogged out shaft bore and bush it.

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2015, 04:33:37 AM »
As there was no change wheels with the lathe when I got it, I hae not been able to cut threads. I missed out on a set of Change wheels which failed to sell on Ebay.CO.UK. The seller had sold them cheap to an Artist who made an installation out of them  :doh:

Since I have already CNC'd one lathe, I decided to do an electronic leadscrew on the Boley for now. I am mostly enjoying having a Manual lathe again, so I am not sure if I will CNC it completly.

First thing needed is a spindle Encoder. Since I'll be using LinuxCNC, it need a 1/rev indexing puls, plus a more/rev encoder signal. There are lots of ways to acheive this, but I tend to choose the most complicated. In this case I have made a steel 40 count encoder disk, with one long slot and fitted it to the existing fine feed drive pulley.




Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2015, 04:51:12 AM »
I have started making the Z Axis drive motor mount. A Nema 34 stepper will be mounted. I don't like irreversable modifications, so the mount will be the same as the existing Boley fine advance drive, which clamps onto a shaft feature concentric to the leadscrew.

Pretty painful process milling the 7mm recess for the motor on the Deckel G1L. I can only cut 0.5mm per pass.

I wonder what the Austrian -Norm material number is for that shiny steel which Rob Wilson uses.

Since I haven't received the backing plate for my Bison yet, I had to mount the 100mm four jaw in the 115mm three jaw.
Mark


Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2015, 05:00:28 AM »
Continued..

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2015, 06:06:20 AM »
Yesterday  I stress relieved the weldment, and got started boring it out. My youngest told me to stop as it was resonating through the whole house and she couldn't sleep.

ER16 is not the ideal spindle taper for a boring bar. Not much rigidity there.  I put the NEMA 34 motor on there for scale.
Mark

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2015, 10:32:05 AM »
I finished boring, threading and slitting the motor mount. Went at it with a grinder to clean up my ugly weld practise also.


Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2015, 04:11:24 PM »
Since the original photobucket links have gone dead, here are some current photos showing the Boley 4L

Offline RotarySMP

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Re: Boley 4L
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2015, 04:15:11 PM »
Today I undercoated the motor mount.