Author Topic: computer operating system  (Read 17902 times)

Offline DavidA

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2013, 12:17:16 PM »
This is slightly off topic,  but not much.

All this changing and updating of operating systems,  and the constant changing of media is a really serious problem.
Data storage came via tape to 8" floppy,  5 1/4 floppy,  3 1/2 floppy,  CD,  DVD,  flash cards to to point where most people have things on systems they can no longer access.
We all probably enjoy reading the history of engineering and about the lives of our engineering and scientific heros.  But I feel that we have seen the last of this.
Where will all the info come from that is used by biographers ? No more letters. No more scratchins on the back of envelopes.  Emails ? No chance.

We are losing our heritage.

The good old book is the only way that we can reliably store our past.  Having just had to wipe an 80 gig hard drive (and lose ann the data and apps that were on it) because that was the only option to recover the drive, I have no faith in computers as the means to record our history.

How do you folks feel ?

Dave.

Offline BillTodd

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2013, 12:46:18 PM »
Quote
How do you folks feel ?
I think you're right.  It is far too easy to lose computer data or worst the means to read the media it is on .

Bill

Offline andyf

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2013, 08:28:28 PM »
I'm with you on that, Dave. In fact, you have reminded me that it's months since I last backed up my files on to a DVD so I can reload it if the HD goes phut.

Like you, I fear for posterity. With paper, those interested in such things can look at the author's manuscript/typewritten drafts, or first folio editions of Shakespeare. But that won't happen with modern works. Still, the authoress's first thoughts on Fifty Shades of Grey* are perhaps best consigned to oblivion.

Andy

*I have read a chapter or two, but found there was too much beating about the bush  :) .
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Rob.Wilson

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2013, 06:26:17 AM »
Very sobering thought Dave , the outcome dose look bleak already public library's are disappearing.


Quote
*I have read a chapter or two, but found there was too much beating about the bush
  :lol: :lol:


Rob

Offline AdeV

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2013, 11:04:57 AM »
*I have read a chapter or two, but found there was too much beating about the bush  :) .

Hm, I'm sure it was called something else when I were a lad...

Anyway...

Dave - you're spot on. I have a bit of an interest in old computers and, as it happens, was ploughing through a number of old compact cassette tapes just yesterday, trying to figure out what was on them. Most of these I've acquired, rather than created myself, so it's interesting to see other people's musings on tape. Or old floppy disk...

The other interesting thing is, how digital storage media have become less & less reliable; I have 30+ year old 5.1/4" floppy disks which I can still read/write to; most of my 3.1/2" disks were junk as long as 10 years ago. CD-R seem to have a shelf life of 5 years or less. Hard drives seem to be about the best bet, although modern ones don't like to be left lying around for long periods without working...

Seems to me, anything you want to leave around for your ancestors and/or archaeologists, you're better off printing.... Or carving into aluminium sheets  :proj:
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2013, 09:35:43 AM »
I'm probably the only one here who uses Puppy Linux , but have done for 3 years. And I use it for work as well as -- well everything. My wife, who is a contract book and magazine copy editor, also uses it for work.

It takes some learning to begin with, and sometimes I have to use creative means to get new hardware to work with it (since hardware drivers are almost always written to be compatible with Windows or Mac OS), but I've never failed so far to get what I needed. The Puppy Linux forum always comes to the rescue when there's a new hardware problem.

Why do I use a relatively unknown OS?

It is spectacular in what it can run on at very high speed -- you can actually run a version of Puppy Linux on a 486 computer and surf the web. On the other hand It will run on the newest hardware.

It is tiny. The whole OS is about 100 megabytes in size. It will easily fit on any media, CD, thumb drive, whatever, and it can operate beside your regular operating system. Dual booting is easy 

If desired you can create a virtual hard drive inside a single large file (called a "frugal" install)  on your operating system, and it will happily operate within that file, saving data only within that file (or elsewhere, if desired).

A frugal install is easy to back up because it is a single file. In fact the OS itself can operate off of a CD (it is small enough and fast enough to take a reasonable time to load that way).

If you operate off of a closed CD, viruses can't touch it (you start fresh from the CD every time you boot) -- although it is generally virus resistant anyway.

The reason it is so fast is that the whole operating system, plus included applications (word processor, spreadsheet, graphics editors, utilities, media, etc.) is loaded into RAM memory on start up and operates from there.

If you add other application programs that you like, you can effectively re-write the operating system with those programs included onto a CD, and call it whatever you want an distribute it. Such variations are called "puplets" and may have specialty uses -- I wrote one once that was specialized for video and graphics editing, with many different editors on board. I still pop the CD into the computer every once in awhile to do editing work, without disturbing my regular Puppy Linux OS (or Win7 also on this machine).

I find I might start up Windows 7 once a month for some specialized application that has no equivalent in Linux. But that is becoming rarer and rarer for me.

I do use WINE which is an additional  compatibility layer for running many Windows programs under Linux. It won't run everything, but I do frequently use it to run Google "SketchUp", Josh Madison's "Convert", 7-Zip, and a few other utilities.

The disadvantages?

Puppy Linux takes a pretty good learning curve to start with -- it will seem odd to those used to recent versions of Windows, though more familiar to users of Win 98 and 2000 in structure. And it's sometimes tough to get new hardware up and running, particularly if Linux drivers haven't yet been written by the Linux volunteer community to suit. But for older hardware it will convert an old windows clunker into a modern high speed machine. Anything over 300 megabytes in memory and a Pentium II will feel like it is suddenly supercharged. Well actually newer hardware will also react the same way.

One other area of confusion is that there are now many different Puppy Linuxes -- that is actually encouraged rather than discouraged. The main line Puppies are written by Barry Kauler, the originator.

I run a Kauler  version of puppy caller Racy on a newer low end dual processor laptop. Older computers might better run Kauler's Wary, or Puppy linux 4.3.2.

For very old computers, there is a well-updated classic version called Puppy 2.15.

And then of course there are a million specialized puplets. I tend to stay away from those as the authors often seem to tire of providing free one-man support after a few years of questions and challenges from users. Either that or they get hired by industry as software developers!

For me, I think the greatest attraction of Puppy Linux is that I am fully in control of the OS. It doesn't control me. It's like a machine tool that way. It can start out basic and simple, and be extended in any direction I wish. Of course that takes some study and learning about how it works, but I like that sort of thing.  :thumbup:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline trevoratxtal

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2013, 11:35:59 AM »
Hello vtsteam
While my main Linux is PcLinuxOs, I use Puppy for some workshop control (really old machine) and on a media server, connected to the Tely.
It is a great small version, I can highly commend.
Geexbox is another recommended for media playing.(no disk drive required to run)
Trev

Offline AdeV

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2013, 05:46:43 PM »
It is tiny. The whole OS is about 100 megabytes in size.

Heh, funny how measures like "tiny" change over time, in the computer world.

My first computer was a Sinclair QL in 1984 - Sinclair was struggling to fit his OS into 32k... in the end, he failed, and the early machines went out with a "kludge", a 16K eprom with the overspill contained within it.

And yet, within that 48K, the system contained a complete implementation of BASIC, a disk operating system capable of operating tapes, disk drives, hard-drives, serial connections and a network. No point and click though.... that came later (in a 16K eprom...).

For those who didn't study computers at school...

1 bit = ON or OFF (the fundamental binary unit)
8 bits = 1 byte (4 bits = a nybble... geek humour at it's most droll)
1kB = 1024 bytes (1 kilobyte. A Sinclair ZX80 has 1 KB of RAM, 1 KB of ROM)
1MB = 1024KB (1 megabyte - even at the end of the 1980s, this was considered a large amount of memory)
1GB = 1024MB
1TB = 1024GB (Terabyte)

So, my QL OS fitted into 49,152 bytes (with some left over)
Puppy requires about 104,857,600 approx - approximately two thousand times bigger....

And the point of all this?

Well, if a "small" OS now is 2000 times the size of a small os 30 years ago, apply the same calculation to an OS in 30 years time...
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2013, 07:58:23 PM »
My first computer had 4k and I soldered 4116's piggyback onto those, and bought out 1 pin to solder in an address line. I used to program in Z-80 assembly language and FORTH in 1K screens.

So I use the term "tiny" in a relative sense!  :lol:


btw, though the early personal computers had BASIC onboard, they sure didn't have WYSIWYG word processing, spreadsheets, movie players, graphics editors, wireless communications, and about 100 other programs already built into the OS as Puppy Linux does, so the size comparison is a bit lopsided.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline trevoratxtal

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2013, 02:41:14 AM »
My first computer had 4k and I soldered 4116's piggyback onto those, and bought out 1 pin to solder in an address line. I used to program in Z-80 assembly language and FORTH in 1K screens.

So I use the term "tiny" in a relative sense!  :lol:


btw, though the early personal computers had BASIC onboard, they sure didn't have WYSIWYG word processing, spreadsheets, movie players, graphics editors, wireless communications, and about 100 other programs already built into the OS as Puppy Linux does, so the size comparison is a bit lopsided.
Sounds like a Nascom 1 or 11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nascom
http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/8934/Nascom-1
if so you may have purchased it from me. :lol:
Trev

Offline DMIOM

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2013, 06:21:12 AM »
Well Trev, that certainly brings back memories - I had just dredged Nascom from my memory and then scrolled down to your message!

A Nascom 1 was built at Uni in I think it was Autumn 1978 - I think it was nominally under the auspices of G3OUL, our RadSoc.

Because of that, I also recall getting into bother - we were being taught 8080 assembler but I was using Nascom out-of-class and there were some instructions where the mnemonics were different for the same operation (for copyright reasons?) and I used the Zilog instead of the Intel ones in a test or exam (was it LD vs MV?).

My first standalone venture was an 8008 with 16 bytes - assembled from quad TTL latches!

and talking of memory - the first mini I had much to do with was a CTL "Mod 1". It had 120k of memory and would support 40+ concurrent users editting, compiling & test running Algol programs. Twas an interesting beast to start - toggle in the bootstrap loader from the front-panel switches, then read in the startup paper tape - then console & discs were active.

Then on to programming 8048 using the blue-cased Intel MDS ....

Nostalgia's definitely not what it used to be !  :beer:

Dave

Offline AdeV

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2013, 07:25:55 AM »
Hmmm....

Would either of you guys (or anyone who's reading/lurking - PM me of if you don't want to break cover) be up to diagnosing a fault/faults on an S-100 BUS based computer?

I have a fairly elderly Micromat PCB drilling/routing machine, the control computer is, as far as I can tell, S-100 based, and is exhibiting bit-rot behavior. My electronics skills just aren't up to diagnosing the fault, although I probably have most of the kit you'd need to do the job (multimeter, oscilloscope and HP logic analyser).

There would be a £ reward for fixing it...

(the alternative is to dump the old computer & drive the main cab with a modern PC... but what's the fun of that?)
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline trevoratxtal

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Re: computer operating system
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2013, 12:47:27 PM »
Well Trev, that certainly brings back memories - I had just dredged Nascom from my memory and then scrolled down to your message!

A Nascom 1 was built at Uni in I think it was Autumn 1978 - I think it was nominally under the auspices of G3OUL, our RadSoc.

Because of that, I also recall getting into bother - we were being taught 8080 assembler but I was using Nascom out-of-class and there were some instructions where the mnemonics were different for the same operation (for copyright reasons?) and I used the Zilog instead of the Intel ones in a test or exam (was it LD vs MV?).

My first standalone venture was an 8008 with 16 bytes - assembled from quad TTL latches!

and talking of memory - the first mini I had much to do with was a CTL "Mod 1". It had 120k of memory and would support 40+ concurrent users editting, compiling & test running Algol programs. Twas an interesting beast to start - toggle in the bootstrap loader from the front-panel switches, then read in the startup paper tape - then console & discs were active.

Then on to programming 8048 using the blue-cased Intel MDS ....

Nostalgia's definitely not what it used to be !  :beer:

Dave
Well Dave  and Adev that brings back memory's.
I was the owner of Crystal electronics and Md of Chrystal Research.
Retired now.
Contact me direct Email I can phone you for free (UK) if you would like to chat.
Adev contact me direct I will try to talk you through a fix
Trev
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 11:12:07 AM by trevoratxtal »