Cincinnati no.2 (English made?) tool and cutter grinder - buy or pass?

[PekkaNF]

I have a day or two to decide if I should buy this machine or not.

Plate says "Cincinnati milling machines ltd Birmingham" Type (as I can see): CK 63.05. + single digit I'm not sure. Googled few hours but could not find exact weight and dimesions on this one.

It looks pretty much like the OM model and has some 100kg of tooling. It would come with all tooling I think I need + some extras. Only thing it is missing is magnetic table. I't is in very good condition according to seller. He also said first that it probably weights 500 kg ....but I think closer to 1000kg + tooling would be closer bet.

Questions:
* What kind of chunks it can be easily disassebled for transportation? My trailer can bear maximum 600 kg legally and it is 400 km haul, I don't want to wreck myselff/car or least have a little chat with friendly people on uniform. Over weight fines are astronomical here and winter weather is another consideration.
* How to take table off for transportation? I have read that it has loose balls on groove - I don't want brinneling during transit.

* How much space it needs? It looks from google like it needs 1,4 * 1,7 metres, but do I really need access behind to operate it?
* Does it has something critical that needs to be checked (might be my first real TCG!), or known fatal features?

I tought that I will make something much smaller like Bonelle or Stent because that is all I need, but with same money I would get real TCG. Only thing is that it is whole lot heavier and bigger than I need and in order to cram it in I have to sell one crappy lathe (not that big deal really). But excessive transport weight would be a deal killer.

Pekka

[mattinker]

Pekka,

The manual for the Cincinnati N°2 appears in John Stevensons Misses's "Mary Poppins" CD "Tool and Cutter Grinder" Mk4 2325lbs / 2.2= about 1056 Kgs

If it's a N°1, it weighs 950lbs / 2.2, = about 432Kgs. The CD is really worth while if you get a T&G, it covers quite a few models. I just tried www.metoolsonline.com and it's not listed. If you need it try Sir John, he's on this group!

I think you will find that it's an American machine.

Regards, Matthew

[PekkaNF]

Wish it were #1, but no such luck.

It looks awfully much like this:
http://www.backsaw.net/pics/TC/Cinc2TC-OM.jpg

All manual controls including slow feed and push-bars left and right, as well as grinding head is a exactly the same.

But the control box on the middle of the pedestal looks more modern. It is void of swiches, instead there is 1970s type control box with two push buttons and two selector switches left of the pedestal.

I can only find the american made, but on the legend plate there is machine type "CK 63.05.*" and very bottom text "Cincinnati milling machines ltd Birmingham".
http://www.lathes.co.uk/cincinnati/page5.html

But I have no idea where this particular TCG was made. Britons may have have acted as trading company and sell few of these this much up north.

I have made a picture search and I find fairly similar machines, most of the picures appear from much older or much newer machines! Probably much has not changed.

I made some inquiries about heavier trailer or van/truck but unloading the 1000 kg beast on one piece on middle of the winter into full garage starts to worry me. Then again I have this funny feeling that if I manage to cram it in here I'll wonder how I ever did without it.

Pekka

[vtsteam]

Pure guesses -- could the 63.05 refer to date of manufacture? and CK = Cincinnati UK?

Is this it?

[vtsteam]

Some specs of another:

http://www.gaec.com/catalog/Machines/k11891a.htm

[vtsteam]

Another:

http://www.malmachinery.com/cinn-tool-cutter-11976.htm

And a whole discussion on whether it is a worthwhile purchase:

http://www.diybanter.com/metalworking/326495-value-cincinnati-2-tool-cutter-grinder.html

[PekkaNF]

Pure guesses -- could the 63.05 refer to date of manufacture? and CK = Cincinnati UK?

Is this it?

OMG  excluding the electrics it looks 1:1!

Thanks for the links...I found those newer ones too, but they are quoted something like 10" bigger in every dimenssions and about 1 metric ton...hoping old SAE inches and pounds would translate lighter

Value would be closer to 500 - 600€ with motorized work head + 100 kg of accesories, so it would be on the ballpark, unless the table or spindle is shot.

Trying still to find out of it can be easily dismantled under 600 kg remaing as a biggest part.

Pekka

[vtsteam]

How about this?

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general-archive/weight-cincinnati-t-c-grinder-90036/

[Fergus OMore]

It all depends on your workshop size and your needs. As far as the Bonelle and the Stent are concerned they are two totally different to the Cinicinatti and different to each other.
The Stent is the similar to the Clarkson whilst the Bonelle is similar to the Quorn.

The Stent is by far easier to set up than the Quorn- and is freer of grinding dust.
I've made both but if most of your time is doing up lathe tools, I would head for the Kennet.

Again, I have a Kennet and a Clarkson. the difference is that the Clarkson comes ready made, you have to make up the others.

[John Stevenson]

Thanks for the heads up on the T&C CD, now back in the shop www.metoolsonline.com

This machine was built in Birmingham, Cincinatti has a satellite factory there, went round it in about 1964, quite a big place.#

These machines are T&C grinders, things like the Stent, Kennet etc are just jigs and attachments - no comparison at all.

[PekkaNF]

Thank you all,

Now I just have to chance the seller, no answer yet.

John, took few minutes to connect the dots: info = manual = CD = on this site. I can be bit of thick side sometimes. I was so fixed to find the dimensions of the base and space requirements, overlooked everything else.

Yes, Grinding always has been the part I hate...dirt/sparks/fire hazard/all the fun stuff. Therefore I had this mindset of small, very small grinder/attachment that has bee showeled of the sight and on dimmest corner of the workshop, surrounded with fire resistant board and equipped with spark killer suction blower. Used only occasionally / emergency to sharpen small form HSS tools.

But if I'm going to take the step on the dark side...might as well least try the real thing to see how they are build and how they work. Big beast could do some more, not necessary only sharpening small HSS tools. It has motorized work head, could actually grind small cylindrical parts.

Smaller TCGs here are rare and sell like hot cakes. Plenty of them come without tooling and are well used. Such carcass would need complete rebuild and eBay chase - not my thing. This might give me short cut - the only problem might be weight and size.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

Looks like I'm going to be the owner of that machine!

Managed to contact the seller and agree on pickup. It's going to be on the pallet and all acessories packed. There is a forklift capable to load it into van.

I'm rentting pretty big van that has capacity way over pessimistic estimate.  Closer 900km to drive in one day. Not too bad, but some coffee will be consumed.

And I pulled a favor from my friend: I can offload it into his warm storage until spring...I'll have few months to organize my garage and work out rest of the details. He has a big forklift. Should be no problem.

Let's see how it goes....
Pekka

[vtsteam]

Good luck for the move and purchase!

[PekkaNF]

Good luck for the move and purchase!

Thanks.

Like your signature "I love it when a Plan B comes together.". My wife always makse fun of me and my A, B and C plans. Then again sometimes she says that she rally appreciates the "B" plan when thing go haywire. She still thinks my C-plans are just neurotic and desparate and she is probably right.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

I got it. Rentted biggest van I got, drove a bit more than 900 km and sans scratch on pinky finger got it into temporary warm storage, before I'll clear some space for it.

It looks really big, but the back side is really massive and rounded. Weights least a metric ton, no way it's less than that. Got big box of assorted abrrassive wheels and least 100 kg of accessories that I'm going to sort out next week.

All plates/text and manuals were in Swedish!

Now I have to do some planning, order that CD and clear some space.

Pekka

[jiihoo]

Congrats for a new toy, Pekka!

All plates/text and manuals were in Swedish!

Just think of it this way: Now you finally know there was a reason why you had to spend all those countless hours studying Swedish at school. Now you can have a nice warm feeling as you put your great language skills into good use. I do hope you spent those hours well and didn't just waste your time there in the classroom .

Jari

[Kjelle]

If you are from Savo, and speak the local version of Finnish, there will be no problem (I do understand quite a bit of the Savo dialect... It's more like someone threw in some Swedish to season the local language..)... Or maybe me and Neo could help out with translation into English...

Take care, and enjoy your new toys!

Kjelle

[PekkaNF]

You guys really rub it on me. I am engineer not linguist or linquini or whatever. I think I wasted most of swedish lessons on the school, non compulsory lessons were somehow more appealing. Anyhow it wouldn't have been such a big loss, I don't think it would have prepared of this manual.

I got "manual" it looks like it is part of a crash course vocational school grinding process. I'm going to get some more apropriate material.

Now, I have to get my stuff together to organize of the garage and familiarize myself with the grinding machine accessories firs...least clean then up and sort them out and where on earth I put some 100 kg of acessories?

Pekka

[mattinker]

Pekka,

John's misses' web site address with a direct link to the CD. I suspect that the 156 page manual in .pdf form is probably the manual you have in Swedish!

http://www.metoolsonline.com/product_info.php?products_id=6

Regards, Matthew

[dpcwright]

Peka
I have a copy of the Cincinnatti No2 manual in English if you need it- let me know

[PekkaNF]

Got the eManual (probably the same than I ordered) and tried to coin the name and piece accessories together.

I have the workhead in the garage. Haven't really had a look for it yet, but this is what I have:

These items I'm pretty sure I have a idea what  they are.

Looks like someone got 14 mm collet really well stuck into MT5 collet holder.

Also the ID grinder attachment bearings are shot. I think I have oilers in the wooden box.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

Following items are mystery to me in a large extent.

And some close-ups.

They must be important.

That ISO50 holder seems to be an adapter for same cone , but smaller dia.

Last item is probably a flat belt sheave, for what?

Pekka

[mattinker]

I'm looking forward to this T&C grinder story coming out, I could easily have been persuaded to by one!

Keep us up dated!

Regaeds, Matthew

[PekkaNF]

Thank you

I'm slowly derusting and cleaning up parts. Some contemplation and effort is here. I'm trying to learn some process here as well.
http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,8236.0.html

Cleaning, organizing and derusting does not make very rivetting show and it's not anything I have any good knowledge to share. I'm thinkking to publish only the parts where I need help or get some good or very bad results.

I have been itching to ultrasound cleaning and soda baslting ans this is as good excuse as any.

I'm getting sidetrackked on parkerizing and blackening of tool shanks and such.....I'll start new thread on that after I study it a little furher and try something with household chemicals. Chemistry was not my forte in the school

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

Stuf got cleaned and the monster got transported into my garage. I have been cleaning it and laest stuff was to check insulation restistance of the motor (pass with flying colors). Machine feets are ready to fit and only one more thing left before firing it.

What is the spindle oil?

How do I change it properly?

Anything else to know about the oil?

The plate is in Sweedish. but I don't regognize the oil. Does this picture tell anything abou the oil?

I bought the manual CD, but I have to prise other laptop from my daughters hands. Mine has no CD-drive.

Pekka

Update:
CMM Co. - N0. P-55

Rust and oxidation inhibited mineral oil. Viscosity 200 to 220 SSU at 100F.

Sounds - jep - it's oil?