Author Topic: 24' x 35' Workshop Project  (Read 17119 times)

Offline rockknocker

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24' x 35' Workshop Project
« on: September 24, 2013, 04:29:14 PM »
Hello everybody! This is my first thread on this forum, so please be patient with me if there are posting problems.

My wife and I bought a house several months ago that needed a lot of work, we've fixed up the inside and are working on the landscaping now. In one corner of the property is a nice little building that I've reserved as a shop (with the wife's blessing, of course ). The building measures 24' x 35' inside and is split into two rooms. One of the rooms is about half the size of the other and has some serviceable wall paneling and industrial carpet installed already. I really couldn't do any better for a shop with an attached office!

I would like to use the larger side of the building as a combination wood/machine/fabrication shop if that is practical, at least until I can figure out which of my hobbies I'd like to focus on. The problem is, I have no idea how to lay the building out to make it the most useable. Does anybody have suggestions on the best way to lay out a shop?

I took some measurements and made a simple floor plan in DraftSight.



The existing floor plan is in white, possible locations for future countertops are green. There are two overhead doors (one 5' wide, one 6') and three windows, all are serviceable and don't appear to leak. The walls appear to be insulated but I haven't taken off the chipboard nailed to them to make sure. The floor is cement and fairly flat, with only minor cracking here and there.

There are several things that need to happen to make this a nice shop:

Countertops: I'd like to have a lot of work area, so I'll probably put countertops along most of the inside wall. Most of my machinery is benchtop sized, so that eats up a lot too. I have a MicroMark 7x10" lathe, a bench bandsaw, a borrowed Craftsman benchtop wood lathe, a small welder, and am looking for more.

Electrical: The shop currently only has one 15A 110V circuit and a 15A 220V circuit, which is dedicated to a wall heater. The wiring is iffy, at best. I've lined up an electrician buddy to help me run a 60A 220V circuit to the shop to its own panel, from there I'll branch out to the lighting, outlets, and heater. There is a lot of left over 14awg wire and hardware left over from the house, I plan to use that in the shop.

Lighting: Two bare bulbs supply lighting for one side, one dim fixture lights up the other. I've been grabbing old fluorescent fixtures for a year now in anticipation of this build, so I should end up with some pretty good illumination in the end.

Misc: A dust and fume extraction system would be great to have, and I have several parts for it already. That project would probably warrant its own thread. I'd also like to build a paint booth for small parts, something like the fume hoods that I saw at a local college.

As this project progresses I'll post updates and pictures. Next to come are some real pictures of the shed, I haven't taken any since we bought the place but the shed was full of the previous owner's "valuables" so you can't see much of it. With winter starting up I won't be able to work outside as much and will therefore be working on this more!

Any input is greatly appreciated, some of the other workshop projects on this site are very impressive! I can only hope that mine is useable by the time it's finished.
Anything is possible when you forget what's impossible.

Offline ieezitin

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2013, 05:07:05 PM »
Hello and welcome.

Concrete floors suck!!! They hold cold and damp and are a bugger for small dust particles, at the very least cover with industrial padded rubber matting everywhere, this makes it easier to sweep up trash and are a pleasure to walk on don’t go cheap with it. Concrete floors in a shop need to be vacuumed, it’s a bastard to turn on the shop vac only to have all the grit and dust fly around the shop landing on the oiled soaked machine it bugs the hell out of me, a central vac will eliminate this.

Insulate the walls it’s an expense which will pay dividends, sounds better too plus it helps keeping the bugs down. Obviously it retains heat and cold, pay attention to your heat source as some introduce vapor.

Brilliant white paint floor to ceiling ( Kilnz premium) its expensive but the white it gives you is worth it, plus the lighting will be distributed better giving you better value, don’t know your age but if your over 40 it will help the eyes tenfold.

Fluorescent lighting, get the one that work in the winter, there a little more money its worth it…

Counter tops, who cares what’s underneath but make them thick and cover with sheet stainless or carbon plate.

Make your storage compact and removable, small in height draws but more of them, install as many as you can afford you’re gonna use them, removable because you’re going to move shop one day and you’re going to want to take them.

When planning your machine space make it logical, pay attention to height where your machines will rest, having a too-high machine will drive you mad. Make your machinist chest central to the shop because whenever you need to access it it must be the shortest possible rout to it.

Electrical supply the machines should come from above, make sure there are extra outlets to plug in silly stuff without laying out extension cords.
A blackboard, have a place to scribble stuff and pin up paperwork, make sure it can be seen from the whole shop, god knows how many times I have had ideas while waiting for the machine to complete its cycle and never wrote it down.

A marking out spot should be allocated, have all the tools and equipment in the same spot.

The grinding station should be tucked away in a corner and provisions made to eject the dust.

A small fridge for the beer and a great sound system plus Wi-Fi for the I-Pad.

Enjoy spending your money my friend…… enjoy your hobby..

God bless        Anthony…
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2013, 05:17:22 PM »
Hi!

Welcome to the collective :borg:

That looks like it will be a decent place to play. Off the top of my head, I would suggest using the smaller side as an office/clean room/assembly area and lounge. That's the place for the PC and printer (so you don't have to keep running into the house). Make sure you have internet as well. A nice comfy chair. Mini fridge (if you have room). A workbench or 3. 1 for assembly, 1 for drawing (same place as the PC/printer) and 1 for electronics work (if you are into that)

The big room... Since you don't have a mill, I would plan on getting one now. If you go benchtop size, it isn't that big of a deal. But if you plan on getting one of the full size or close to it mills, then plan your shop space accordingly. IE know where your mill is going to go.

Since I don't know what your hobbies are or what you want to do... I am at a loss on some things. So here are some ideas. Take the ones you like:

1. You said roll up doors. Make sure you have room if you are into power sports to pull whatever it is, into your shop IE, motorcycles
2. Overhead lifting. IE a hoist or gantry crane
3. Storage is almost important in any hobby. Allow for it. Cabinets, rafters, shelfs etc.
4. Electrical. Make sure you have plenty of outlets with appropriate power. If you get that big mill, you might need 220 socket. Plan you space accordingly.
5. There is something to be said for stools and anti fatigue mats.


That said... tell us more about yourself. What are you interested in?

Eric
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We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline awemawson

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2013, 05:17:52 PM »
I've taken to lining concrete floors with  8x4 sheets of 20mm 'Sterling Board' or OSB (oriented strand board) I use OSB 3 which is the damp proof version, and plug and screw it down on an 18" or 24" matrix. I paint it with two coats of normal floor paint and find it stands up very well to shifting heavy machines about. If a bit does get damaged it's very easy to replace, but I've never had to yet.

It makes a dust free, slightly easier on the foot cover that is not so bad if you drop a tool and is far more pleasant if you have to roll around on it to get at things.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline rockknocker

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 05:55:02 PM »
Thanks Anthony! Those are some good suggestions! I do have some follow-up questions though:

* I would love to get metal countertops but in the short term I'll probably have to go cheaper, what with a new house and new kid and all. :) I was thinking of using some plain white laminate countertop material, do you think that would hold up for a year or so?
http://www.lowes.com/pd_446590-76323-949-58-48X96-900_4294735712__?productId=4321914&Ntt=white+laminate&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dwhite%2Blaminate&facetInfo=

* Forgive my ignorance, but could you define "marking out spot"?


Eric, I was thinking the same thing for the smaller side. Also, I'm an electrical engineer by trade and sometimes need to do circuit work at home, so I might strip back a few feet of carpet next to the countertop and lay down some ESD paint to make an electrical work area.

I'm not sure why the previous owner made both doors the roll-up type, probably because of the size of the opening. The doors are *barely* wide enough to fit my car through with the mirrors out, but I only plan on doing that when maintenance needs to be done.

I've got some ideas for a gantry crane and a possible source for the raw materials, but that project would be a ways off...

I'll copy this to the intro post topic. About me: I'm a mid-twenties electrical engineer with a wife and one kid living in the beautiful Oregon countryside. My interests include RC flying, engines, electronics, woodworking, and taking things apart. I've read many forum posts and articles from home machinists and fabricators but have never been able to "join the club" until recently when we moved to our new house with its aforementioned shed. I grew up on a farm so I have working (but rusty) skills in welding, fabricating, and mechanics. My job allows me to dabble in the mechanical side of things when I'm done with the electronics, so I have been able to do a small amount of mechanical design and machining there as well. I have several projects that need to be tackled, aside from the ones mentioned in the original post:
* Restoration of a 1919 model 'T' Ford willed to me by my grandfather.
* Refurbishing of a half-dozen 22+ inch LCD monitors that were given to me. Most of them should come back to life after capacitor replacement.
* Various wood projects for my wife including drawer dividers, a removeable formica tabletop, and a fireplace mantle.
* Something to make all of the plastic baby food containers my daughter goes through more useful. Got a few ideas...

Thanks for all the encouragement and advice!
Anything is possible when you forget what's impossible.

Offline ieezitin

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2013, 07:40:22 PM »
Your work bench should be stout! If you compromise everything will be flimsy and it will  just turn to dust, the effort you apply in making  a substandard  work surface/ bench  will bite you in the ass tenfold, use the same energy in making a correct one, just resting something on a sub-standard surface  while you’re trying to hand file something and it moves will destroy your day.

Marking out is where you scribe your machine lines and Blue your jobs, machining is where you have a part in the vice and the cutter is coming close to the strike line you can visually see it, after that the indicators or DRO takes over, it’s the visual sign of your math, its hard to explain but once you get into the hobby the penny will drop.

Marking out is paramount in a machine shop and should be given allot of thought, but i am old time.


       
PS…………………..  for those who have CNC with in-line Computer access to machine control a layout area is not necessary.

Anthony...... god bless.

Anthony…
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2013, 10:01:11 PM »

I would like to use the larger side of the building as a combination wood/machine/fabrication shop if that is practical, at least until I can figure out which of my hobbies I'd like to focus on. The problem is, I have no idea how to lay the building out to make it the most useable. Does anybody have suggestions on the best way to lay out a shop?

I took some measurements and made a simple floor plan in DraftSight.


Well no shop is perfect, and mine is at the opposite end of the list. So take what I say with a grain of salt. First of all, you have a shop. That's better than no shop.

And it is relatively large. That's better than a small shop.

Sounds like you don't have a lot of money to spend. My own take: don't spend it on the shop as much as what goes into it, in that situation. You're going to want a lot of things to complete projects that you don't have. So try to re-use what materials and facilities you have, what you can find, and put up with imperfection.

It's true you can draft things out. But a lot of times you're going to find you didn't take some things into account in the drawing, that show up in reality.

For instance feeds of materials into machines. Will you have a table saw? Will you want to rip a 12 foot board -- you need about 26 feet in the clear for that. Well there's ways around that -- but you get the gist of what I'm saying: machine positioning is important to being able to use them. And in my opinion, the best way to locate them is by actually trying them out for position in the shop, not by drafting.

Here's an example why. Suppose you plan for a mill-drill machine. I happen to have just moved mine, so pardon  the emphasis on it. So not owning one, but planning you look up the dimensions of the stand for the one you want to own. That's the footprint, and you allow say 4 inches all around that to fit it in. Then you get one. Haul it with frinds into the shop and.....

Oops -- the motor hangs way off the back  well past the stand, plus you have to be able to move the motor in and out to tension belts. So it's going to hit the back wall. Okay change that location. Oops that will put it too close to a floating bench you squeezed into the drawing. Well the bench certainly can be moved. But not to as convenient a spot. All set right? You crank the X table handles. Oops! That 24 inch table extends off the mill and hits the side wall in the corner -- again way past the footprint dimension. Another oops -- cranked the other way it passes in front of your machinist drawers. One of them won't open with the table extended. Well okay you can always close it.

Nah, odds are one day, it will be open, and you won't notice as you crank that table over. Suddenly you're getting a lot of resistance.....etc.

That never happened to me, by the way.

So I say unto you, do your planning on the computer if you want, but give everything maybe 400% of the area that your best estimate allows -- it won't be too much. Better than that, start putting things into the shop and using them and form an idea of what the physical and feed requirements are through practice. Be able to shift things around. Try to avoid built in cabinets and benches until you know what you want for machines. Instead, as suggested earlier, make them unitary and moveable.

But above and beyond all of the above, just have fun. Make mistakes. Don't sweat it. Be flexible. You have something already many would envy. And buy machines before carpeting.....  :)

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
www.sredmond.com

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2013, 10:05:00 PM »
... just have fun. Make mistakes. Don't sweat it. Be flexible. ...

That is a great quote...
Science is fun.

We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2013, 10:13:39 PM »
Wait, this one is actually more important:

Buy a come-along.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline dsquire

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2013, 10:42:04 PM »
Wait, this one is actually more important:

Buy a come-along.

Steve

In years past Mr. Come-along was the best (and only) employee that I had. Never complained, didn't need no smoke break, Just kept coming 1" at a time. Lot of jobs I could never have completed without him.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don 
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2013, 11:29:58 PM »
Thanks everyone! Tons of good advice.

vtsteam, I plan to re-use a lot of leftover building materials from the house, so I'm hoping to save some there. One thing that I learned from fixing up the house is to take my original cost estimate and triple it to get close to reality.

ieezitin, at my work we have a local carpenter build us tables that the manufacturing floor uses. They're made of wood and are basic but very stout. The top surface is braced with 2x4 lumber on 12" centers, with a thick piece of plywood over it, then a piece of racquetball court wall that the boss got for a steal (basically MDF with laminate counter-top material applied to one side). The tables are nigh indestructible, although blades will scratch them. I was originally planning on copying those tables for my work benches.

I went out to the shop tonight and snapped a quick pic. Sorry for the mess, it started raining last weekend while we were working outside so we quickly parked a bunch of stuff in the shed that normally wouldn't be there. Plus, some of it is for sale on Craigslist. The only big thing in the shed that I have to make room for is the model T, and I'm working through an idea on how to safely work around that...



This picture was taken through the smaller of the two rolling doors. The doorway into the second half of the building is visible on the right, next to the borrowed table saw that I need to return.

The first step will be to clean this up!
Anything is possible when you forget what's impossible.

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2013, 11:33:17 PM »
If you don't have a decent compressor... Make sure you buy one. The next house I buy, I plan to plumb the shop with air line.

Eric
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Offline awemawson

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2013, 03:52:41 AM »
I'll second that one Eric. When I built my workshop I ran 25mm mdpe pipe in a ring just below ceiling level and can put in a drop for an air outlet anywhere a machine happens to land ! I also ran 100 mm x 50 mm pvc trunking round for electrical services and put a double switched 13a socket every metre. Friends thought is was far too many sockets, but believe me it isn't ! Compressor is located outside the workshop in a Portakabin to keep the noise down.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline daz

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2013, 10:00:32 AM »
you can NEVER have enough sockets!!!
I am a sparky to trade and detest having to go into mates houses to add sockets for them. Last time I redone a kitchen completely I asked them to count how many sockets they needed for all their appliances etc. When they told the figure I doubled it, they thought I was nuts!!! Roll on a few years and they still thank me for talking them into it. It's not about being able to use them all at the same time, it's about having one where you need it, when you need it.
My wee shop is only 4 x 4 mtrs but there are more sockets in it than the downstairs of my house and I rarely need an extension or one of those dangerous mutiple adaptor things  :zap:
I'm not a complete idiot, some bits are missing!

Offline rockknocker

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2013, 10:59:50 AM »
I forgot completely about the importance of air! I have a small craftsman air compressor that will get me started, but have added a larger one to the long list. I'll definitely add air plumbing to the to-do list as well!

And many, many outlets. I'll have 220v routed to the shop, should I put a 220v outlet every so often as well, or is that special enough that a few equipment power outlets in strategic locations and a couple more for my welder's extension cord to plug into would be enough?
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Offline awemawson

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2013, 11:13:21 AM »
Well of course being in the UK all my sockets are 240v. But in addition I have probably 20 3 phase 415v ones in 16a and 32a flavours. I run all of them as '5 wire' as the neutral is often useful.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 11:13:48 AM »
220...

Welder, Mill (maybe), Lathe (maybe), Oven (for powder coating, maybe).

There are some more.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2013, 01:49:13 PM »
220 here for mill and stick welder, and a spot welder. The stick welder takes the most juice. The mill draws 17 amps nameplate.

Unless you have an industrial type lathe, a benchtop lathe generally does fine with 110V here. My Craftsman 12" by 42" (I think) uses a 1/2 hp motor, so doesn't require anything special. I haven't stalled it yet -- but could go with 3/4 hp and still be well under the limit of a simple 15 amp 110v circuit.

The compressor strains conventional 110 V circuits -- probably drawing close to 15 amps. A 220 V compressor would make sense, but most popular types are 110 out of the box. That's because they are designed to be portable. Not a lot of 220 V outlets in odd places around the house in the U.S.

btw, shouldn't you be outside splitting wood with that splitter (err.. I mean horizontal press) instead of playing around with your shop?

I know I should........ :)
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2013, 02:36:30 PM »
OK, so based on y'alls feedback I'm planning on putting a duplex 15A 110V outlet every meter and a 20A 220V outlet every few meters and in strategic spots that may end up needing more power in the future. I'll choose a convenient 4-prong plug for the 220V outlets so as to make them the most universal.

I'll also plumb air into the walls with quick-connects available every so often and set aside a spot for a larger air compressor than I currently have.

I also like ieezitin's recommendation to use pure white paint on the walls. I happen to have a bunch of un-tinted Sherwin-Williams paint left over from the house... :thumbup:
Anything is possible when you forget what's impossible.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2013, 03:14:14 PM »
I'd go with 20 amp 110v circuits instead of 15a if possible -- depends on your available wire size and distance.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2013, 03:47:27 PM »
... and set aside a spot for a larger air compressor than I currently have.


If you can, a covered spot OUTSIDE. Less noise  :zap:
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Offline rockknocker

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2013, 10:58:18 PM »
Hello MadModders!

It's been raining cats and dogs all day here, so I was able to get several hours of work done on the shop. Part of it is now straightened up, and some potential projects were stored up above in the rafters.

I also built up some vehicle dollies for the model T out of Harbor Freight "el-cheapo" brand furniture dollies. To keep them from breaking due to the model T's thin tires I spread the load with a piece of leftover plywood.



They're a little taller than they could be if I had just bolted the casters directly to the plywood, but the extra height will come in handy when I'm working on the 'T'. It was easy to maneuver the car around to make the most floor space. The car probably won't stay just like that in the long term, but it works for the time being.

Sorry for the image quality, my no-frills phone camera has a tough time without a lot of ambient light.

EDIT: Too many pictures, not enough content. Stripped it down some.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 12:12:16 PM by rockknocker »
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Offline dsquire

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2013, 12:33:14 PM »
Hello MadModders!
.
.
.
EDIT: Too many pictures, not enough content. Stripped it down some.

rocklnocker
 :worthless:

Don't worry about tco many pictures. We love pictures, they are worth a 1000 words apiece. If you start posting too many photo's, one of the Mods will quietly point it out to you.  :poke:

I love what you did with the Model T. I wish that I had thought of that years ago. :thumbup:

Have fun and play safe in your new garage/shop, I'll be watching.  :D :D

Cheers  :beer:

Don
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and your better best

Offline vtsteam

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2013, 03:22:18 PM »
Ahhhhhhhhh, floor space!  :drool:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
www.sredmond.com

Offline rockknocker

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Re: 24' x 35' Workshop Project
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2013, 09:22:03 PM »
Well, there hasn't been a lot of progress on this shop since my last post, when the weather is nice other projects take priority!

I got my hands on several more fluorescent light fixtures, some nice 8' units this time. My plan is to mount those to the ceiling and hang the 4' units from short chains above the work benches.

It's gonna be a little while yet, but I'll post some pics when the shop looks a little different.
Anything is possible when you forget what's impossible.