More wood butchering from Ross, Scarf Joint

[RossJarvis]

As no-one's complained, or kicked me off for working on the brown stuff, here's another one.

For my next trick, I will attempt to make a scarf joint, without aid of assistants or a safety net, you people in the front three rows may wish to stand back a bit, or at least don a Mackintosh.

Once again, cut a bit of oak off the bit of oak I really really wanted to get this cut square as I’m still not brilliant at this.  It seems that I can do it when not concentrating, but not when I am?!?  So I found an old trick to help.  First knife your mark square, then chisel into it a bit then cut on this mark;



…zzzd zzzd zzd zzd and you should have a perfectly square cut, did I?  Did I b*****y!;





So I thought I’d trim the end, using a nice square block of wood as a guide (luckily I’d made one earlier);



….now we should have a nice square end.  However we still actually had a b******d end so I took the block plane to it and Viola;





Time for a quick walk wi’ t’ apprentice.  Boy, you need to see my nuts now, much bigger than the last time I showed you, plus the weather’s cooler now;



Back at the wood and I’ve discovered that the white pithy bits are white rot.  This is a fungal thing and was in the tree when it was still standing.  It appears to travel up the grain and turns the wood to fluff.  I’m not sure how much is in the whole lot, but this bit of the block just fell out.  The wood on either side of the ring seems sound;



…ssshhhhh shhh ssshhhh, with the plane, ooh that’s a nice shaving;



…..and we have a nice square lump of wood, just a touch of work to remove a slight slope and it’ll be great.  I think I’m getting better as I haven’t had to take as much off to get this square;



As the Hampshire monsoon is upon us again, I’m taking the time to work out whether to do a Japanese scarf, or an English one.  In many respects they’re identical with the odd slight difference.  There are some English ones every bit as fiendish as the Japanese ones.  This is the “Kanawa Tsugi” which is one option;




I’ll put some thinking tea on (Taylor’s Yorkshire today) and look up some more and get back to you if I’ve made a decision or when I’ve b******d up some more wood.

[Pete W.]

Hi there, Ross,

Please forgive my being     but do tell,

How do you get the inner skin off your chestnuts?          

I do like chestnut stuffing with the Christmas turkey and it's good to make our own but peeling the chestnuts always defeats me.          

I asked a mutual friend who's a good cook how he does it and he said 'Oh, I don't bother, I buy chestnut puree from the supermarket'!!

After the warm and/but weather we've had this year, I expected that the chestnuts would be bigger and firmer but the ones we gathered while walking man's best friend this morning weren't anything special.

[RossJarvis]

Hiya Pete

I am definately not a chestnut expert.  Last time I cooked 'em they were in the oven and started exploding, I grabbed the baking tray and bunged 'em in the back garden as they were still detonating.

Apparently the skins come away when the inside is hot but re-stick as they cool.  One way I've seen is to boil half a dozen at a time for 5 mins and peel the skins quickly, wearing rubber gloves.  Alternatively, bake them for about half an hour with a slit across the flat side (can't remember oven temp).

They're a lot bigger this year than the past two years, I'm not sure if our climate's quite up to their needs (yet).  Must make some panniers for the "apprentice" to hunt and gather.

[S. Heslop]

I'm appreciating these threads. Fancy hand tool woodworking is something I tend to avoid after bad experiences in the past but i'm enjoying your unpretentious approach to it.

[AussieJimG]

And I'm back on board Ross. Got the popcorn, got the beer, go to it man!

Jim

[vtsteam]

Nice sketches -- with washes, too, Ross! 


Cut suggestion....?

[vtsteam]

Another suggestion for cutting off square with a Japanese saw -- always mark with a knife all 4 sides of the cut, then with the saw, cut in all 4 sides slightly -- say an 1/8" deep along those marks. Go back to your first side and then do the cutoff.

Marking all 4 sides checks that your marking is true and square and accurate -- since the lines won't meet up if not.

Cutting all 4 sides gives you mechanical guides -- guides the saw in the cut (like a miter box) and also prevents break out at the bottom corner of the cut.

Of course to mark all 4 sides truly, you cannot have a rough side as you do in the first few pix. Sides must be trued first for a square to mark the cut properly.

Keep up the good work. Persistence pays off! 

[Joe d]

Hi Ross

Add me to the list of those enjoying your adventures in wood-working.

Looking forward to the next installment of the story!

cheers, Joe

[SwarfnStuff]

Me too, Me too please Mr Ross. Great reading ahead. 

[awemawson]

It was beaten into me in school woodwork classes always to mark the "face side" and "face edge" and only take measurements from those two surfaces as the timber would never be truly square. First thing we had to do was select them using a set square then mark them across their common corner with a special mark a bit like an alpha on one and inverted v on the other

Andrew

[RossJarvis]

Thanks for all the advice and comments guys

I've gone for cutting the block in half as I think that's more like what would happen in "real life", plus the challenge of marking the joints out was getting beyond the current brand of tea .  I'm finding that I have a tendency to undercut, into the left.  I'm going to practice more.  The cutting all the way round for a guide seems a good bit of advice.  I can usually follow a line across the wood.  I'm not sure if I'm any better with a western style saw at this and just need more practice, or whether there is a certain in-built cack-handedness.

[R.G.Y.]

Yes keep practising. The last 20 years of my 50 years working as a chippy, I never needed any marks to cut 90 +90 or 45 +90 degrees. So keep going.  The 2 back dovetail corners on a drawer done with 1 line on each piece. But that's an old sweat shop trick. I could do a drawing to explain if interested.

[vtsteam]

It was beaten into me in school woodwork classes always to mark the "face side" and "face edge" and only take measurements from those two surfaces as the timber would never be truly square.

You can't do any of these complex high precision joints as shown with tapered or curved stock at finish dimensions. You  finish true and square first, then mark and do your cross cuts. You can't possibly make a "square cut" across timber that is irregular -- tapered or curved lengthwise. It's a contradiction in terms.

Crosscutting comes after dimensioning stock.

It is possible to use warped, tapered, or curved stock in lots of carpentry, building a barn for instance, and yes best to measure from single sides there. And so it is safest to assume irregular stock. But in this kind of precision joinery it's no different than machining, except for the use of hand woodworking tools.

[Pete W.]

Hi there, all,

Steve, I hope Ross won't mind my asking this in his thread but is there a thread illustrating the building of your house, the one you pictured in my 'Tin Shed Project'?

Is so, please give us a link - if not, why not?!?!          

[vtsteam]

Thanks for all the advice and comments guys

I've gone for cutting the block in half as I think that's more like what would happen in "real life", plus the challenge of marking the joints out was getting beyond the current brand of tea .

Suggestion: mark out a template and use that to mark your stock. I like aluminum flashing for that. You can move it around and get best cut usage on your stock. Plus it becomes a lifetime tool to add to your collection. Plus it creates uniformity in your joints.

[vtsteam]

Steve, I hope Ross won't mind my asking this in his thread but is there a thread illustrating the building of your house, the one you pictured in my 'Tin Shed Project'?

Is so, please give us a link - if not, why not?!?!

Well building my house would be an example of barn style carpentry, not joinery. And for why I haven't ever done a thread on it..... well, no reason except I never thought there would be any interest in that. Also, I have to admit, secretly, I find that kind of thing boring to myself -- I'm not too interested in it -- I just needed a house so I built it.  Now machining -- that's fascinating -- probably because even after a decade it's still new, and also I'm not that good at it. Go figure.....!

[RossJarvis]

Hiya guys , thanks for all the comments and advice .

RGY, Yep a drawing would be interesting, any new bit of knowledge comes in handy.

Generally traditional European framing uses various "scribe rules" to fit joints.  This is a way of using non-square/parallel  timbers.  Each joint is fitted to each other, so nothing needs to be square, straight or parallel, but it is time consuming and uses plumbs, levels, rods, dividers and a fair bit of thinking.  In the States I understand "square rule" carpentry is the norm, but I'm not too familiar with this.  It was explained as "imagining a perfectly square bit of wood inside the timber being used".  Apparently the Japanese have some magical way of cutting the joints separately and they fit!?!  However I saw a video on Youtube and they tend to have some very large mallets!

I'm thinking mainly of fitting the joint to itself at the moment.  I did get the block square and parallel to a good extent (well, to the thinnest feeler gauge across 3" although the thinnest one now is not the thinnest one it came with, I think that's still in the tappets of my Honda ), but overnight this has changed a bit.  Humidity is everywhere at the moment, the lid on my new toolbox has siezed up and warped again, so there must be an expansion of a couple of thirty seconds or sixteenths across 12"

Meanwhile, back at the ranch; Unusually for me “ahem”, progress has been slow for the past couple of days, could be due to the weather;



I had managed to split the wood into two bits, I had intended to cut diagonally to save on waste and had had some good suggestions on how to do this, but in the end I just cut ‘em square(ish);



Next I planned how to mark the joints out.  There are some conventions to do this, based on the width of a Japanese square (15mm), which helps speed up and accuratise (that’s not a word is it!) marking out.  Not having one of these I sort of approximated.  I made the length of the slope 3x the width of the wood, not including the “noses” and did everything else in English;



…and then knifed this into the wood, highlighting in pen;



I’ve marked a face and face edge on both bits of wood to try and mark from the same reference, initially I was going to mark both out before applying saw, but I really couldn’t be bothered so will mark part 2 from the finished part 1.  The weather cleared, so I ran out, set up the “bench” and started a bit of ripping, following the order in the book only to completely go off line and create a compound curve inside the wood;







….ho hum, I could always go back to plastic models for a hobby!  I cross-cut out the waste;



…bashed a chisel with a hitting stick;




…started to plane the slope to the knife line, with a 60 ½ and the heavens opened, so I called it a day, Sunday I think I called it!

PS. Pete, I roasted the first batch of chestnuts as per my instructions, one detonated at 13 mins.  I eventually had about 3 where the skin fell straight off, but these didn't taste too good, a couple of nice ones where the skin wasn't too difficult to take off and a lot of blood sweat and tears for little reward.  I now know why they come in tins.

[vtsteam]

Well you got me making videos now 

Don't know if this will help, but it shows what I do using a Japanese saw to make a square cut on a piece of scrap. The cut is marked with a machinist square and a sharp scriber all the way around. Checked for truth (making sure lines all connect). Then the saw is used to cut slightly into the piece at the scribed lines all around. Finally it is cut through.

The resulting cut is square when checked on all 4 sides, using no miter box, poor quality scrap wood ripped from a stud, no vise, and a pretty wobbly hold, too. (I was trying to keep it in view.)

About 2-1/2 minutes to mark out and cut -- and that was slow to make it a demo.


[embed=600,400]<iframe width="600" height="400" src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/77343287" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen allowfullscreen></iframe>[/embed]

[vtsteam]

Because the video is not very good resolution, here are still shots of that cut, from all 4 sides:

Side 1




Side 2




Side 3




Side 4

[RossJarvis]

VTSteam, thanks for the time and effort in putting that together

It makes great sense.  So far I'd read and understood the technique where, at least it appeared that a cut is made part way through one face, rotate and do the next line part way, rotate etc.  Doing that I was just undercutting on four lines .  I'll try your technique next.

I think I'll try this on the rip cut for the next piece, cutting a kerf as far down each side on the line as I can.

It's nice to see someone else working outdoors, though that's what I'd expect from the other side of the "pond".  You also seem to have better weather.

Thanks again,

Ross.

[vtsteam]

You're welcome Ross! I thought it might be helpful also to see the angle of the saw while cutting -- a picture (or video) is worth a thousand words. I start each marking cut with the saw a little higher than finishing that cut, etc. Think of pulling the saw along the line. These saws cut on the draw stroke. Think of them as string, and you're trying to draw a flexible piece of string across the marked line. The grip should mainly be the thumb and side of forefinger. Hand should be on top of the handle. That lets the handle pivot and stay level. Don't grip like a tennis racquet.

Good luck!

[RossJarvis]

Unfortunately your hand is just out of shot.

I've seen confusing pictures of holding the handle, some have the thumb pointing along the blade, some pointing down.  I think my thumb tends to point along the blade on the top of the handle.  You may be right and I'm holding it like a tennis racquet (I'm rubbish at tennis ).

[vtsteam]

Think pool cue. 


er.... billiards cue?

[RossJarvis]

Thanks VTSteam

I think I'm okay on the grip, mind you I'm rubbish at pool, billiards and snooker   I need to hold looser I think, as at some angles I'm getting wrist ache.  I do the same on the motorbike, grip too hard.  Mind you, I'm normally terrified when riding!

[AussieJimG]

  I do the same on the motorbike, grip too hard.  Mind you, I'm normally terrified when riding!

Me too. Mind you, I think terrified is what keeps us alive. That, and a conviction that everybody else is actively trying to kill me and I musn't let them.

Jim

[RossJarvis]

  I do the same on the motorbike, grip too hard.  Mind you, I'm normally terrified when riding!

Me too. Mind you, I think terrified is what keeps us alive. That, and a conviction that everybody else is actively trying to kill me and I musn't let them.

Jim

They are aren't they, particularly Volvo drivers!

[chipenter]

I love my Volvo all 200 horses and dry .

[RossJarvis]

I love my Volvo all 200 horses and dry .

But don't you get fed up of all the motorcycle shaped dents on the outside?

[tom osselton]

Mine was in 08 a truck pulling a dual wheel trailer turning left, we don't see many volvo's here   luckly only took out my right side. So long term disabilities till I retire in 2019.

[RossJarvis]

Well, one half of the joint’s done, not overly impressed with my skills but hey-ho.  Not much work done today either.  First off, I used the block plane to get the “lower slope” flat and even, then pared with the chisel the “upper” slope as there was no way to get in there, unless I used the shoulder plane and therefore couldn’t be a***d.  Then I managed to b****r up the rebate at the top by being too enthusiastic with hitting stick and chisel.  Additionally, this rebate was narrow and the only chisel I had to match was now ground skew!!;



Then I chipped away at the tenony thing on the end, this time using a gentler touch and going a bit slower;



Boy, I’ve been taught chiselling by about 5 different people and appear to have forgotten everything they must have told me.  This bit came out relatively satisfactory though.  So here we are, one half of a scarf;



I’ve marked the other half, from this and if the weather improves we’ll see if I can do this in one day.

TTFN

[RossJarvis]

Mine was in 08 a truck pulling a dual wheel trailer turning left, we don't see many volvo's here   luckly only took out my right side. So long term disabilities till I retire in 2019.

Oouch, I feel for you, hope you've been able to adjust successfully.

[RossJarvis]

Rain again till the afternoon, I have now read all of the internet, apart from some of the Mongolian pages and those CIA ones which are hard to find.  However, after going for a walk with the apprentice, well a bit more like going to stand under various trees, I applied sharpness to wood.  (Sharpness in terms of tools that is, not in terms of me!).  Following a demonstration and some advice about getting good straight square cuts with a pull-saw (cheers VTSteam ), I pre-cut along the lines to guide the saw;



….started cutting and;



******, *******s, *******ing, **** . 

It was worserer on the other side;



****ing ******les!;



….more compound curves than on a compound-curvey thing.  At this point I was going to give up.  However, inside the old noggin a battle ensued and I decided to carry on despite it, chisel bash chisel;



….plus it came to transpire (or is that what trees do instead of sweat?), that I had subconsciously managed to mark things out, taking the cock-up into consideration and things weren’t quite as bad as I thought, so before long, Ta Dah;



…two funny shaped bits of wood.  The light was going by now, so I tidied everything away and came in to see what was for tea.  “Whatever you're b****y cooking” is the answer.

Getting a bit fed up with this sawing malarkey.  I need to get some scrap wood and do a lot of practice just on that, me-thinks.  At the moment, I’m not sure whether to blame it on the saw, the wood, the workbench or the apprentice, maybe all four!

[AussieJimG]

You can't stop now, you are just starting to get the hang of it!

Jim

[RossJarvis]

Thanks for the encouragement Jim

Finito Benito, or some such.  Yesterday I found that the “step” in the middle had to be re-cut a bit, at an angle for the wedge.  I couldn’t actually put the two halves together initially as it got in the way.  I’m not sure whether this is something I missed from the book or just messed up when marking out.  After last night’s deluge of Diluvian proportions, plus thunder and lightning (very, very frightening, ooh Galileo…….), which had left an inch of water in the tea mug, I was surprised to find a dry and sunny morning.  So out pops I, pare, pare, pare, scrape, scrape, scrape and;



….two joint parts which almost fit together and a hand planed wedge, which also fits, almost!  Starting to put them together;



Put together and wedged loosely….;





…..and here’s four bits of oak pretending to be two, along with my outdoors plane collection;



I’m sure I’ve learnt a lot more than I think, including not giving up when things all go ***s up.  One thing I have learnt is why the Japanese build their houses out of softwood and not seasoned oak!  I need more practice on the pull-saw, chisels and not rushing, but overall I’d have to say there are a number of things about it, which are positive.  One was that both parts of the joint were straight and flush to each other…….hmmm, not sure what the others are, but I’ll come back if I remember.

[awemawson]

Very neat Ross - 'proper job' as they say in the west country. It must be very satisfying to had got there in the end. Those are worthy of any mantlepiece 

[vtsteam]

Looks great Ross! 

[AussieJimG]

There you go, what did I tell you!

Jim

[RossJarvis]

Thanks for your support and advice Awemorson, VTSteam and AussieJim

Not sure what the next project will be, but hope to come up with something soon.   By the way I am humbled and impressed by your own activities and encouraged that it's not just me who gets up to these stupid things out of curiosity. 

Ross

[PekkaNF]

I’m sure I’ve learnt a lot more than I think, including not giving up when things all go ***s up.  One thing I have learnt is why the Japanese build their houses out of softwood and not seasoned oak!

You might need help identifying wood?
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/identifying-wood.jpg

I'm very impressed how you keep focused and just press on even when there is some wind against you. Your experiments are very inspirational.

Pekka

[Joules]

Hey Ross,
       thats nice work, your bonfire is going to be much smaller than mine this year, though most of MY woodwork has been sawing logs.

[RossJarvis]

Thanks Pekka, Joules

Pekka, I can now tell the difference between; oak, pine, plywood and mdf.  I am currently trying to remember the characteristics of OSB to broaden my knowledge .

Joules you have just reminded me, it's getting cold and we have about a 3 day supply of wood stacked, eek!

[R.G.Y.]

At last here is the sweat shop method for cutting dovetails (Victorian), my grandfather taught me. Being the 7th generation of carpenter and last I have 2 daughters. If they were starting work today one would be a good carpenter.  Having done her own loft conversion, with a little help from me. I don't post very often as at my age it's nice to be a junior.
    I did a drawing but this site would not take the format, so I have done a demo instead.
 In to the fire wood box for some scrap. First place the pieces together & draw the line     (photo 1). Repeat on all the ends. If making a box 8 lines on 4 pieces of wood, clamp the wood in the vice. (photo 2, only making 1 joint so not placing the 2 back pieces). Run a thin bladed saw across the top (No 3), then dip down to just mark the lower piece or (pieces) (No 4) Next cut the the tails until just marking the lower piece. (No 5) Remove from vice using the marks on the end cut down to the line, remove the unwanted materiel with a copping saw. (No 6) Job done in 3 minuets flat.

[RossJarvis]

Thanks RGY, that's a very neat job for 3 minutes work   I think I've got that.

Just to clarify on picture 5, the wider part of the pin is marked earlier with the saw, down from the higher board, in line with the wider part of the dovetail.  Then when the dovetail is cut, the saw lightly scores the top of the "pin board" at the narrower end of the dovetail, and you join the two marks for the pin, or more precisely just lay the saw across-wise from mark to mark and cut down to the line.

That's really good, no faffing about with dovetail squares etc  You just need to be good at holding the saw vertical for the pins.

[R.G.Y.]

Yes that's spot on. When I started my apprenticeship the first thing i had to learn was always cut square. Sorry second the first was sweep up & make the tea.

[vtsteam]

Cool, RGY!