Author Topic: An Electric Bicycle  (Read 69911 times)

Offline awemawson

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Re: Sourcing DC motors in the 24-48v, 500+ watt range.
« Reply #150 on: July 17, 2014, 03:34:42 PM »
 :thumbup: :thumbup: Well done Simon - nice to see a good result  :thumbup: :thumbup:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline tom osselton

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Re: Sourcing DC motors in the 24-48v, 500+ watt range.
« Reply #151 on: July 17, 2014, 06:19:15 PM »
Here ya go you have your choice of the original Flux Capacitor    :D

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/EB00/121G.oap?keyword=121g

Or the upgraded Mr Fusion model  :thumbup:

http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/EB00/121GMF.oap?keyword=121gmf

Mind you even without it your bike looks not bad

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Sourcing DC motors in the 24-48v, 500+ watt range.
« Reply #152 on: July 17, 2014, 09:53:19 PM »
Very happy for you Simon!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I imagine that it will create interest every time you take it out.   :thumbup:

I kinda like the gyro gearloose/mad scientist look with the wiring in the breeze and the batts akimbo, and the test pilot's gaze of serenity. Now that's the way to enjoy life!  :med:

Of course I look forward to the spiffy version just as much!

When you have time to give us some current and voltage figures I can help you tune your motor and drive combination to give best and most efficient performance.  :smart:  But solving the slip problem comes first!

Suggestions for further thought: It's possible to pivot the drive roller outboard and forward of the rim contact point so it draws itself in to the rim when power is applied. This overcentering would probably allow a lighter spring.

Also, I think the idler pulley might not have to be spring loaded at all, rather, overcenter locked in a contact position -- the drive roller will apply pressure to it through the rim anyway. The idler should be able to be unlocked manually. maybe just an overcenter lever control.

Anyway,  :thumbup: :bow: :bow: :bow:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Sourcing DC motors in the 24-48v, 500+ watt range.
« Reply #153 on: July 23, 2014, 03:03:04 PM »
Well this is off topic. I've been waiting for some left hand nuts to arrive through the post so i've been messing with that Atari ST I found at a boot sale.

This audio/video cable is probably the fiddliest soldering job ive ever done.


Shoved the 13 pin din connector into an eraser to prevent the pins from wandering when the plastic got soft from the soldering heat. The pins didn't have solder cups.


There was more space on the scart side, but it was even more of a fiddle making sure every cable went where it was supposed to.


See if you can spot the typical mistake!


And it works! Well the cable does at least. Unfortunately the floppy disk drive seems to have problems, but hopefully they're the kind I can fix.


I'm not in so much of a hurry to complete the bike at the moment though since it's dependent on if I can get ahold of laptop cells at the next boot sale. Hopefully the weather is good on Sunday and the folk selling old computer junk will turn up. And hopefully they won't expect the same crazy prices laptop batteries sell on ebay for...

Also, am I right in thinking that if I made something like a 7s 3p battery, to balance charge it i'd only need one 8 pin connector, or would I need 3 8 pin connectors for each battery in series?

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #154 on: July 24, 2014, 10:06:39 PM »
Thanks to vtsteam for moving this thread to a more sensible forum, and giving it a better title!

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #155 on: July 25, 2014, 06:35:12 PM »




Couple of little things. Started making another box for the batteries and electronics (i'll probably put holes and a fan underneath to try keep the batteries cool), and reassembled the bike after previously making the left handed thread for the left hand side, as well as replacing the thin bearings with some thicker ones that'll hopefully hold up. If they don't i'll probably make a third aluminum plate to support that shaft above the roller.

Funny thing about the handed threads is that I totally screwed them up, and now the nuts on both sides will be able to work themselves loose! Rather than remake the shafts I think i'll just loctite them on, i'll have to check that the loctite I bought is the sort you can heat to release through. It's extremely strong stuff.

I'd like to have gotten more done today but I couldn't do too many noisy things since we're looking after my brother's very cute baby daughter.


Edit: Oh! I just realised I can just switch the idle/ drive arms around to get the threads on the right side.

Edit 2: Now i'm wondering if the idle wheel would work the same as a drive wheel in terms of tightening/ loosening the nut since the wheel will be turning the roller. All this handedness is really confusing! I think i'll just go with loctite.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 08:14:18 PM by S. Heslop »

Offline vtsteam

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #156 on: July 27, 2014, 08:23:07 PM »
Not sure since I don't use it that much, Simon, but I think Loctite can always be loosened with heat, Some loosening types can be broken free with a wrench -- maybe that's what you're thinking of.

The new bike box and rollers look good!  :thumbup:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #157 on: July 30, 2014, 11:36:34 AM »
I'm getting ready to give the bike a real stress test till the batteries fun flat (or something fails!). I've got a theoretical 10 miles with the current batteries but it'll probably wind up way less than that.


Took a good while to get the charger working. For starters, it turns out its a fake clone of the real Imax B6 and risks overcharging the batteries, so i'll need to keep an eye on the voltage with a multimeter as it charges. Kinda frightening with LiPo...

The hard part was finding a power adapter that'd work with it. It can accept 12-18 volts input but all my power adapters were providing up to about 24 volts when they were without a load. I'm no electronics expert, so I might be doing something really silly here, but I ended up wiring a car bulb in parallel with the charger to give about 16 volts when the charger was idle. Then when initiating the charge, I switched off the bulb. Took a few tries to get a charge rate setting that kept the voltage under 18 volts. It's now charging at a rate of 0.7A.

12 minutes later though and the voltage has risen about maybe .01 of a volt. It's currently at 11.53 volts and needs to reach a target of about 12.6 volts so it looks like it's gonna be a long one. This is only one cell of two as well!


In other news, i've still had no luck finding laptop batteries at boot sales. I need to move on to other stuff though so I suppose i'll have to save the batteries for later, whenever I find any.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #158 on: July 30, 2014, 12:41:23 PM »
Simon, don't run those batteries down more than 3.7 volts per cell -- that's the usual alarm/ESC cutoff voltage of about 1/8 capacity. That works out to about 10.95 volts for a 3 series cell pack. Fully charged would actually be about 12.45 Volts for the same pack, not 12.6.

When you say "one cell of two" I think you mean one battery pack of two, yes? Each battery of yours is, I believe 3 cells, internally..

Why do you say that your charger "clone" will over-charge? I suspect it will work fine, unless you have a definite known reason why it won't.

Your charger is designed to work with an automotive 12V system -- those vary in voltage as the car alternator does vary its output, hence the "range" of 12-18 volts.

AC auto adapters for home use may run high in voltage if the output is open circuit. What matters is the output under load.

How many amp hours are your battery packs in capacity, and how much current can your charger output? -

You should be able to charge at a rate to get a pack fully charged from empty in an hour. Assuming the charger and the adapter can handle the current requirements.

Example:

For 2000 mah lipos, you would set the charge rate at 2000 ma (ie. 2 amps). Assuming your charger is capable of 2 amps, and your AC adapter can handle the input requirements of the charger (usually marked on the charger box or in instructions).

You can also make a high amperage 12V power supply very simply from a used computer power supply -- there are many instructions for doing this on the internet -- just do a search.

I use one of those with my lipo charger.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 01:10:12 PM by vtsteam »
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #159 on: July 30, 2014, 03:16:21 PM »
The balance charger claims to be able to charge at a rate of up to 5 amps. The battery packs are 5000mAh so am I right in thinking they could handle that 5 amps charge current (assuming I wanted to charge the batteries as quickly as possible. I hear it's generally better for the batteries to charge them slower).

The current is limited by the wall adapter i'm using though. Would a car battery charger work better as a power source for the balance charger? It's probably one of those things I could ask any neighbor to borrow. I might even have one hidden in the garage somewhere! I'll probably have to find and older one without fancy circuitry though since I hear those cause trouble.

As for cell/ battery. I know better but it's a mistake I keep making when i'm not paying attention. The two RC batteries I bought are a 3 cell and a 4 cell. The one currently charging is the 3 cell.


Also, I forgot to actually hit the post button and this has been sitting here for a while. Charged the first battery to 12.45 volts and now i'm starting on the next one. It's getting late though so i'll probably have to save riding the thing till tomorrow.

Offline John Rudd

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #160 on: July 30, 2014, 03:36:27 PM »
I wouldn't endorse the use of a car battery charger as a power unit for your charger.....generally their output is raw dc with no smoothing....not something it will like.....
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Offline S. Heslop

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #161 on: July 30, 2014, 04:06:24 PM »
Dang. I might look at a PC power supply with a dummy load then. There's a million sketchy half-assed looking guides on the internet about converting them, and that usually puts me off. But as far as I know a PC supply would have no problem delivering 5 amps at 12 volts.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #162 on: July 30, 2014, 04:42:00 PM »
Yes you can charge a 5000 mah R/C Lipo power pack at 5 amps -- it is in fact the norm.

You need a supply to the charger of more than the output amps though -- the charger isn't 100% efficient.

An 8 amp or better rating on the computer PS would probably be okay.

Basically to convert one the yellow and black wires carry +12V and ground respectively.

Most newer supplies also have a ON-Off switch sensing wire that turns the PS on or off.

On mine it is a green wire in the biggest connector (might be a different color on a different supply) this gets connected to ground (black). I just inserted a hairpin piece of wire in the connector to make that connection. The PS own switch still works to shut it off.

Some people say you also need a dummy load across a red wire (+5V) and ground so the supply can do a good job of regulating -- and to extend longevity. You can use a 6V light bulb.

That 's about it.

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline awemawson

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #163 on: July 30, 2014, 04:52:13 PM »
Simon, if you do end up with an old style car battery charger with no regulation then all you need do to keep it's volts in range is to put it across a car battery and draw your charging source from the pair of them.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline DMIOM

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #164 on: July 30, 2014, 04:54:55 PM »
......In other news, i've still had no luck finding laptop batteries at boot sales. I need to move on to other stuff though so I suppose i'll have to save the batteries for later, whenever I find any.

Hi Simon,

I must admit I don't think I'd be looking for boot-sale laptop batteries.

Two reasons really - the main one is that batteries that are that far down the chain may well have limited capacity. Most laptop users leave their machines on mains power almost all the time. Susceptibility to 'memory effect' is reducing - but the batteries are likely to have limited usable capacity.  Secondly, the management of charging laptop batteries is handled in different and sometimes quite sophisticated ways by the host laptop - so unless you gut the battery for individual cells, you may need the host laptop to charge the battery pack.

Dave

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #165 on: July 30, 2014, 08:08:12 PM »
Hi Simon,

I must admit I don't think I'd be looking for boot-sale laptop batteries.

Two reasons really - the main one is that batteries that are that far down the chain may well have limited capacity. Most laptop users leave their machines on mains power almost all the time. Susceptibility to 'memory effect' is reducing - but the batteries are likely to have limited usable capacity.  Secondly, the management of charging laptop batteries is handled in different and sometimes quite sophisticated ways by the host laptop - so unless you gut the battery for individual cells, you may need the host laptop to charge the battery pack.

Dave

I was planning to gut them for the individual cells. I have the idea that the batteries you'd find at boot sales are all broken (otherwise people who've been collecting big boxes of batteries would probably be selling them on eBay for a fortune?), but would only have one or two cells inside that are fully dead. It'll probably be a chore to check every single one to see if it holds a charge though, but if it works out like I hope it'll be fairly cheap compared to RC lipos.


I think a PC supply would have no problem supplying 8 amps either. Modern graphics cards can draw over 250 watts of power at 12 volts, which is about 20 amps. I'll keep that in mind about the sensing wire too.

I found one video where a guy had made a little board with a dummy load and terminals that he could just plug the motherboard connector into, since PC supplies have a habit of failing (quite spectacularly!) and it's nice to easily switch them out. I might go ahead and do something that since I really need some sort of half-decent lab supply, even if it's not limited current. I've also been using the multimeter alot lately and wondering how I ever got by without one, and it's making me tempted to go back and build that 'electronics shelf' for my desk I planned a while ago (but gave up when I realised it'd need 2 boards of plywood and probably cost a small fortune to make as a result).

Kinda wished I approached the electronics guy at the university chem department when I was still there and asked if he had any old oscilloscopes he wanted rid of. I just never got around to it.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #166 on: July 30, 2014, 08:57:07 PM »
PC supplies are always labeled with their output voltages and capacities. They all vary. You want to check the spec on the supply for the +12 V line -- that's the one that should be 8 amps. It's easy to find supplies with tons of current capacity on the 5 volt line, but the 12V line is usually a lot less. 

I don't favor the laptop batts either I've had too many go bad, and operating on them isn't simple. They will also likely be a mix of different cell types and capacities -- that's going to be hard to match up and figure out how to charge.

Not saying it can't be done -- just, might not work out well -- I just don't know and haven't tried it.

A lot of people swear by A123 batts or LiFe these days because of their safety record. Some people dissect electric drill battery packs and extract the cells. I haven't done that ether. Those cells have a different voltage than Lipos do, so I think you need more of them -- not sure.

Safety: you should charge lipos in a Lipo sack or bag -- these aren't expensive, and are fireproof. If you charge for only an hour, you can stay in attendance -- which is also important for safety. I've never had a problem in 3 years of flying, and don't know anybody else who has in my flying club either.

The main cause of lipo fires is setting the charge rate for a much larger battery pack, and then charging a smaller one at the same amperage without changing it to reflect the smaller battery. I've actually had a Nicad (Nimh actually) melt a plane's nose when being charged, so I don't think any battery is entirely safe. But almost always these things are due to human error, rather than a spontaneous problem. That can happen very rarely, but an appliance or aging house wiring can cause a fire spontaneously, too. For most people ( and here are millions flying R/C) there aren't any problems, other than "puffing" a cell because they flew too long without re-charging. That means one cell in a pack, usually gets gassy and the pack puffs up slightly. If that happens, time to dispose of it.

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #167 on: July 30, 2014, 09:18:57 PM »
That's interesting about a LiPo sack/ bag. I was thinking about putting the battery in the steel crucible to hopefully keep any fire contained. As far as I know, water would just react even more with the battery.

I did see a thing a few days ago where a guy had bought a whole bunch of tool batteries since the company had changed the design or something and was getting rid of old stock. But aside from getting lucky like that, tool batteries seem awfully expensive.

I think by the end of the day there's probably not any reliable way to get ahold of cheap batteries. If it was that easy, everyone would do it!


But I think for now i'll just charge these two cells and see how well the bike works. If it breaks or gives me any more problems I might just put the project on hold, since I really don't have any more time for it. I didn't think it'd take this long and I need to tidy stuff away to make space for the banjo plan, since that might actually make some money if it works out.

Offline chipenter

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #168 on: July 31, 2014, 02:50:30 AM »
Hi Simon
I have repaired lots of cordlees drill batteries , and it is usualy the first one or two cells on the posative terminal that die ,charge it and iff the pack won't hold a charge the rest will just test back from the posative back, a tip is cut the connecting strip in the centre and solder your wire to the tag , and the heat won't kill the cell .
Jeff

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #169 on: July 31, 2014, 12:43:58 PM »


Charging at 3.2 amps now. I set it to 4 though so I think maybe I might need to connect more than just the motherboard header's 12V wires to get more amps, but 3.2 should do for now.

Thanks for the tip about the green on line. I wired that to a switch, and i've got that bulb on one of the 5V wires.

I'll of course have to make a better setup for future though, but right now I just want to try test the bike before it gets dark again. Gonna charge this 4 cell to 16.6 volts to match the 12.45V the 3 cell is at.

Kinda a little nervous with the PSU so close to me though. I had a (really cheap one) explode in the past and it sent sparks up the wall. I want it close to me so that I can feel if things are getting too hot though.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #170 on: July 31, 2014, 02:42:29 PM »
Whew. Just rode it for about 25 minutes back and forth on part of the cycle track. Decided to head home when the cells got warm. I brought the multimeter along but I forgot what voltage I was actually supposed to be draining the batteries to (was going for 3.7 per cell for storage). Killed myself on the last bit going back up the (very steep) hill. The bike could climb the hill by itself but fairly slowly, but I decided to pedal up it as well since the wheel must've been slipping alot.

The cells are at about 3.6V per cell so I suppose i'll charge them up a bit for storage after they cool.

But yeah, it worked great! I need to disassemble it (hopefully for the last time) to see how well the bearings are holding up. If they're doing okay then I guess I can call the project complete, aside from a few finishing touches.


I also thought it was interesting that on the motor side the whole arm got fairly warm. At first I was worried that it was the bearings overheating, but the one on the opposite side was cool to the touch. I think the heat from the motor was conducting into the whole arm, and the arm was acting like a heat-sink for the motor and keeping it cool!

Offline awemawson

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #171 on: July 31, 2014, 03:07:40 PM »
Isn't it a great feeling when a plan comes to fruition  :clap:

I'm very happy for you - well done  :thumbup:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #172 on: July 31, 2014, 05:50:11 PM »
Good news, everyone! The bearings have held up fine. Can't feel even a tiny bit of grittiness to them.

All I really need to do now is make a throttle (holding a potentiometer isn't just dangerous, it's downright uncomfortable!), which shouldn't be a difficult job. And a cover for the gearbox would probably be a good idea. Then paint everything.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #173 on: July 31, 2014, 10:35:03 PM »
Great to hear about it Simon! I know there must be a video some time in the future. Can't wait to see it! :clap: :clap: :clap: :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: An Electric Bicycle
« Reply #174 on: July 31, 2014, 10:59:46 PM »
It always gets confusing making a video when most of the project was fiddling around with stuff to get it to work. I recorded alot of video in the early stages but i've barely recorded anything of the latter stuff.

I should probably set the camera up for the final assembly, so the video doesn't just trail off into an awkward slideshow of 'finishing touches' at the end.

Or I could just pretend i'm a genius and it worked first try!