The Shop => Metal Stuff => Topic started by: DavidA on July 31, 2016, 07:04:24 AM

Title: It's a gas...
Post by: DavidA on July 31, 2016, 07:04:24 AM
Just received my invoice for renewing my shield gas. It's from Air Products and the gas is an Argon/co2 mix.

It wasn't a very nice experience.

The product it's self was ok at 36.62.  but there was a 20.45 'handling charge'.
Now, I collected the bottle. And all the supplier had to do was open the gate to his storage area and put the bottle in the back of the car.

Where do they get their prices from ?

All in all, with the 20% VAT and the 1.65 'energy charge', my bottle had now risen to 70.42.

Bodging around in a shed is becoming very expensive.

Hopefully this bottle will last a long, long time.

Does anyone here use co2 for MIG welding ?

And what are you guys paying for your gas ?

Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: AdeV on July 31, 2016, 12:40:13 PM
How big is the bottle, and what's the rental on it?

FWIW I just bought a 20l @ 2000psi bottle of pure Argon (for TIG welding) @ 80 for the gas, and 85 cylinder deposit (all plus the dreaded VAT of course, which at least I can reclaim). I'm guessing MIG gas would be cheaper but I don't have a price.

This was from a distributor for - turns out they're less than 1/2 mile away (about 500 yards as the crow flies - but someone's stuck a ruddy great dock in the way!)
Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: one_rod on July 31, 2016, 03:50:28 PM

Does anyone here use co2 for MIG welding ?

And what are you guys paying for your gas ?


I always use straight CO2 for mig on steel.
It burns a bit hotter and a bit more spattery than Ag mix, but works fine.

20 for an exchange, pub size, bottle from the local welding supplier, (or your local pub if you're friends with the landlord).  :thumbup:

Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: shipto on July 31, 2016, 04:41:33 PM
Have you looked at albee professional? rapid metals are a stockist for them but there are others you would have to look at their website.
Anyway they sell you a full bottle to start which is expensive but the bottle and built in regulater is yours theres no rental. the refills are a bit more than others too but apparently they fill to a higher pressure than the others.
I am planning to get a argoshield from them once my BOC one runs out, as for me the rental is the biggest expense in my gas usage and I think that within a couple of years I would be saving.
Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: Will_D on July 31, 2016, 04:56:24 PM

I rent from BOC in Dublin ( :bugeye: )

Size X Argon Bottle Annual rental: 80.81 [ as of 28/10/15]

Refill: Pureshield Argon Size X: 54.80 [as of 31/05/16]

All above include VAT at 23%

Thanks to Brexit its hardly worthe converting to (!!!)

At moment its like 1.12 to the

HTH: Will
Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: PK on July 31, 2016, 10:29:00 PM
it was really getting ridiculously expensive in Australia. If you used a small bottle a year you were paying nearly $200 for the bottle rental and $150 for the gas.   
There has been a big shift here though some companies are now offering bottles for sale (ie no rental) at about $400 (full) and refills at about $100 delivered.
At one bottle per year you break even in 2 years..

Hopefully this deal makes its way to your part of the world soon..

Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: chipenter on August 01, 2016, 02:09:01 AM
A motor factor local to me sells a refillable bottle and a refill but only CO2
Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: spuddevans on August 01, 2016, 02:55:56 AM
BOC UK do a hobbiest deal, formerly known as the Volkszone deal (not sure what it is know as now). I get my pure Argon for TIG with it, and you can also get Argon/CO2 mix for MIG on the same deal, some details can be found here (warning, really big thread, but prices found on linked message)

For me, if I use a bottle (the mid sized, not the 6ft tall one) a year it is cheaper than any of the rent-free deals I could find. If I use more that 1 bottle a year it is even better value. (and so far as I am still learning to TIG I am on my second bottle in 8months)

Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: RussellT on August 01, 2016, 04:52:25 AM
It's worth looking around for local suppliers - who don't cover the whole country.

If I recall correctly the last bottle I got (Argon Mix) was about 70 including bottle deposit and no rental. (Savanna Gases Stockport).

Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: Spurry on August 01, 2016, 03:01:14 PM
Have you looked at albee professional?
A Plus 1 for me. I have the MIg and Tig bottles from them.
Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: Will_D on August 01, 2016, 03:52:49 PM
You need to check the Gas laws:

Some of the "rent free - from the garage suppliers" are smaller than the standard size X bottle and some even are only filled to 110 bar!

So my BOC X cylinder contains 2.3 cubic Metres (2300 Litres at STP*)  of Gas @ 230 bar {According to BOC {So the botlle holds 10 litres of water [this is the Water Capacity] - marked as WC on the neck stamps}

Now if another Same sized cylinder is filled to 115 bar you only have 1.15 cu M of gas

Likewise if its on of the skinny garage bottles it may only be 5 liters ( so 5 * 115 = 575 litres of gas at STP*)

*STP: Standard Temperature and pressure (1 bar at 20C usually)

HTH Will
Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: naffsharpe (Nathan) on August 11, 2016, 06:01:07 PM
I'll second Tim on the  BOC/Volkzone deal. I found (after much research) that offered more Ltrs/ than any other supplier deal and as Tim said no rental cost, just an annual deposit. I use Argoshield for Mig welding on my old VW Transporter which needs patching and panel replacement on a regular basis !
Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: DavidA on August 12, 2016, 09:47:43 AM
Just had another nasty surprise.

My monthly account just arrived.

I didn't realise there was also a standing rental charge these days with Air Products. So another 10.35 per month to find.
Last time I user them there was just a fixed up front charge and the cost of the gas.

So what with oxy/acetylene and shield gas, It looks as if it is getting close to packing it all in time.

Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: Will_D on August 13, 2016, 06:07:18 PM
10.35 pcm is for how many bottles and at what size?
Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: DavidA on August 14, 2016, 06:42:29 AM

It appears to be for one PT10 size filled to 200 bar.

I do have a similar size bottle of acetylene from the same place. But that was taken out on my old account; which they say they no longer have. So I'm not sure if that one is being taken into account or not. No doubt I will find out when I need to renew it. There is no mention of it on the latest paperwork.

Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: DavidA on December 14, 2016, 10:24:56 AM
 A precautionary tale.

As you have seen, I got my Air Products cylinder sorted out finally. And the invoices for around 8.0 started to appear each month.

Today I noticed that another invoice was there to be read (PDF). and this time it was for 23 pound.

So, I phoned Air products to ask what was going on.

'Didn't they tell you how the rental system works ? the nice lady asked.

No, they said it was about 8 per month.

'Well, it depends upon how much you use. And I see that you still have the same bottle. If you don't change it within three month it goes up to the next tier, which is 23. And then it goes up again if you still don't replace it after a few month'.

A this small bottle would last me about three years I would have paid out around 600 for it by the time I needed to renew it.

So I cancelled the contract and took a hit on the lost gas. I think I had done some 6" of weld in total. Maybe five minutes.

When I returned the bottle, virtually full, the agent told me that they have just re-introduced the 'hobby user' deal. You pay a deposit of around 60. You refill is 37. and the agreement last for ten year.  If you return the bottle (the original or any other refills) before that time you get a small amount back.

That seems reasonable. But I think I will wait.

So, I now have brand new tig welder still in the box that is gathering dust under the stairs. maybe I will use it some day.

Buyer Beware.

Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: Spurry on December 14, 2016, 12:34:20 PM
As a fellow user of a teaspoon of gas per month, it might be worth having a chat with United Welding Supplies.
They are giving up the Albee ones as too expensive, and have moved over to another supplier which I now have. Similar terms to the Albee ones i.e. no monthly rental.
Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: DavidA on February 02, 2017, 11:11:09 AM

Do be VERY careful when dealing with Air Products.

Following the earlier debacle I thought that I has it all sorted out with the new Hobby Gas agreement.

72 for the initial set up and the bottle.  The new contract starting on 1st January. And the payment to be taken by Direct Debit on the 15th February.

Straight forward; you may think.

A couple of days ago I received an Email advising me that 58 was to be taken on 15th February.

A check with AP and all is clear.

The initial bottle charge did not include the gas.  i.e it was a ten year hire of an empty bottle.

Anyway, I am now reassured by the nice lady on the phone that there will be no further charges for the next ten years apart from when I need to re-fill the bottle.

I'll probably be dead by then.

We do have fun; don't we.

Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: Neubert1975 on August 10, 2017, 08:10:48 AM
Old thread i know.
But just be glad that you dont live in Denmark as i do, i use co2 for mig welding, when i started i had to pay for the bottle (6kg) 266 Gbp and than the gas it self is 99 Gbp just for a filling (exchange)
Argon for my tig, i am driving the 270Km each way to Kiel in germany where an exchange 20L argon cost 35Euro/22Gbp whereas in Denmark a half size costs 99 Gbp
If i had to start in Denmark with Argon, i would have to pay for the bottle aswell Total cost 546 Gbp.

Title: Re: It's a gas...
Post by: howsitwork? on September 15, 2017, 05:24:35 PM
I still love Denmark, especially  "  brunswigger" pastries :coffee: :coffee:but by gum you get charged  for everything! I too drove over the border from Arghus to fill up on petrol less than half the spruce per litre !! There was a massive petrol station just over the border. Have things improved now here are no physical borders , or is it just an easier drive without the passport control?

I can now get carlsberg elephant overs here I am delighted to say  :nrocks: