Author Topic: Mill vice backstop  (Read 38067 times)

bogstandard

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Mill vice backstop
« on: April 08, 2009, 06:05:08 PM »
I have just finished two private projects.

The first one proved my adaptable tooling between lathe and RT works like a dream. So I am a super happy bunny over that.

Unfortunately, the second one killed my dreams of having the RT and vice mounted permanently on the mill table. I had to move the RT so that I could get the detachable backstop onto the table in the correct position.

With this post I hope to cure that problem once and for all. I will be making an adjustable backstop that is mounted permanently onto the vice, and can be swung into use whenever it is required.




So I raided my bitsa boxes and metal bits and found a few things that might be useful. The only things that are definitely going to be used at this time is the rough bit af 1/2" ali plate and the rusty bit of bar above it. The rest of the bits are just to give me a few choices as I get on with it.




The first bit that needs to be done is to drill a hole in the side of the vice in the correct position, making sure it is parallel to the jaws and the vice base.
I got out the largest angle plate I have, but it looks like something else is needed to get the vice clamped to it. That will have to wait until tomorrow when feeling a bit more refreshed.



Looking at it now, I might be able to use the vice to clamp itself onto the angle plate.

Scanning these posts sure give you a few good ideas.


Bogs

Offline Darren

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2009, 06:15:59 PM »
My vice has a handy way of turning 90deg..... :ddb:



But although it is very versatile in being able to set it to any compound angle it does have one major drawback.

It's rather tall in normal use. This can present a problem with vibration if milling something that is a bit tough going. The vice is solid enough, but the height gives great leverage on the bed. Plus the mill column is also extended so some extra flex there no doubt. I wouldn't part with it as it's just too handy sometimes.
I still need to get a normal type vice for normal type work, ie most of what we do.

BTW, mine has threaded holes in both ends for stops, if only I could work out what size the threads are. Nothing I have seems to fit. I may have to drill and re-tap to something more normal. Was only thinking about this earlier.

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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2009, 06:37:10 PM »
Darren,
Thanks for the heads up I reckon I have one of them somewhere, need to get the rope round my middle and a trail of breadcrumbs.......

Bogs and Co.

If you promise not to laugh I might take a picture of my end stop I made / found / liberated / got thrown at me [ delete as required ]
Made from total scrap parts but in 20 odd years I haven't seen fit to modify it so it must have been right to start with  :clap:
John Stevenson

bogstandard

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2009, 06:42:32 PM »
Darren,

If I remember rightly from other pictures you have posted, that is a Jones & Shipman vice. Very nice indeed.

I think it is actually a vice for use on a large surface grinder, where the cutting action isn't as fierce as on a mill, but I might be wrong.

You might find it is either BSW or BSF threads.

 
John

Offline Darren

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2009, 06:50:10 PM »
You are right John, it's is indeed a Jones & Shipman.

Cracking vice I have to admit, it's only really tough milling that can cause problems. But then that's me init.

I have been thinking, when my hard metals run out I will not be looking for any more. :bang: Brass and ally is much kinder all round  :ddb:

Even stainless is nice to use after what I've been up to recently.  :lol:
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2009, 12:57:17 AM »
Johns right about the Jones and Shipman vice being from a grinder when I worked in the tool room, grinding was my speciality and we had Jones and Shipman grinders that all came equipped with those vices.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2009, 05:07:33 AM »
That explains a lot then. I'm sure they are perfect for their intended use......mind you still worth having,  :ddb:
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2009, 05:16:44 AM »
That explains a lot then. I'm sure they are perfect for their intended use......mind you still worth having,  :ddb:

There very good vices:- If I remember correctly I think you can take them to pieces and use them as a straight vice without the swivell bits.

Put it this way if one fell my way I'd grab it.

Stew
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Offline Darren

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2009, 05:22:42 AM »
That explains a lot then. I'm sure they are perfect for their intended use......mind you still worth having,  :ddb:

There very good vices:- If I remember correctly I think you can take them to pieces and use them as a straight vice without the swivell bits.

Put it this way if one fell my way I'd grab it.

Stew

Can you really.....I'll have to have a good look at mine, being able to lower it would be fantastic....and put it back together when needing angles of course. The vice itself is superb. Lock nice and tight with little effort.


Quite a while ago I went to view a lathe for sale, the lathe was junk, but I did buy Jones and Shipman bench press and a nice bench vice from the chap.
He threw this compound vice in as a freebie... :ddb: :ddb:

My lucky day....... :)
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bogstandard

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2009, 06:51:25 PM »
Very little action going on, so I will get this one back on track.

If you remember from last time, I had to mount my vice so I could get a hole drilled nice and square in the side of it.

I used my brass t-slot blocks that I made up ages ago, they are a nice tight push fit in the slot (see arrowed item). The angle plate was then pushed against the blocks, and clamped down. So the plate is now perfectly square to the t-slots.




The vice was then clamped under it's own pressure with the moveable jaw against the front machined face of the angle plate and the fixed jaw was tight against the back casting but with a piece of round brass between the jaw and the angle plate, this is to take up any minor irregularities. At the same time, the vice was tapped to a perfect upright position by checking with an engineers square against the top of the jaws. The jaws on my vice are parallel to the vice base, others may not be. If you don't know what an engineers square looks like, follow the arrow.




Now I have a vice whose base and jaws are square to the quill. Just what I was after. The setup isn't super rigid, but perfectly secure and safe for the jobs I will be doing on the vice.




First off I found an area on the vice side that, if drilled into, wouldn't hit any area used for mounting anything, plus in a nice beefy area of the casting.
I now needed a nice flat area for later additions to sit on, but the casting in the area I wanted to drill was all shapes and angles.
So the first thing I did was put a spot face cutter in, larger than the area needed, and cut down until I had a nice working face. You will see that in later piccies. You could use a large slot drill to do it at this stage, or a face mill if you have already drilled the hole. But take it steady.




The DRO was zeroed up so all the following actions were done in the same spot.




With a tapping drill the right size for 8mm coarse thread, I drilled to 20mm deep.




This was followed by a fairly deep countersink, I don't want the block I will be putting on here being held off by the threads. In this shot you can plainly see the spot face I put on earlier.




The hole was then hand tapped to depth, making sure the tap was kept truly vertical.
All machining jobs on the vice were now finished, so the setup was stripped down and cleared away.




I was going to use a piece of ali for the main support bar, but thought better of it, so after a rummage in my steel box, I came up with a crappy bit of hot rolled steel.
I only want the backstop to reach about 2" into the jaw opening width, so it was cut to rough length. If you want it to reach further, cut the bar longer.
The vice was remounted to the table, and squared up. The RT was put back at the same time.




After a run in with a cutter on the mill, the crappy black bar miraculously turned into a bit of accurate crappy shiny bar, complete with marking out blue and three pop marks and a rough slot shape scraped on the surface. There are no measurements for these, they were guestimations by laying it alongside the vice and marking where the holes should go.




The centre of the width of the bar was found using an edge finder, and by using increasing sizes of drills, all three pop marked holes were brought up to 8mm diameter.




Now for the slot.
If you want an oversized slot, plunge in with the correct sized cutter, and hack away. Not only will you end up with an oversized slot, it will most probably end up all rough with wiggly sides as well.
You have to caress a slot to the right size, this is how I do mine, others might have a different method.
I found an unmarked end mill (not too worried about plunging because I will be going down the pre drilled holes) that was just under 8mm diameter (I don't know exactly, about 0.4mm undersized, most probably some sort of imperial one).
The cutter was fed about 1mm down the hole, and a cut was taken until it reached the other hole. Another 1mm cut and fed again in the opposite direction. This was done until the complete slot was done.




The cutter was then changed for one of 8mm and plunged all the way thru the hole, and a very fine feed with a lot of cutter speed was put on until it eventually reached the other hole.




I ended up with a slot which when an 8mm rod was fed along it, it was like silk, with no sign of side to side wobble.




A 5mm hole was drilled half way across the width and half way across the single hole, and it was duly tapped out 6mm.




After a bit of cleaning up and rounding over, the major part of the job is finished.





Just a bit of turning, and a tiny bit of milling to be done, and the job should be ready to be used.

Bogs

Offline Darren

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2009, 06:58:38 PM »
I know it's a simple job, but thanks for showing this. It's something I need to make as well..... :dremel:
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Offline HS93

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2009, 06:59:31 PM »
Ok whats in the syringe..Is it cutting fluid of some sort ..

Peter
I am usless at metalwork, Oh and cannot spell either . failure

bogstandard

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2009, 07:05:58 PM »
Yes Peter,

It is a very high pressure cutting oil.

I am tight as a ducks a**e, and that is watertight. If I can get away with using a couple of drops instead of a dollop, I will do.

I don't know when I will be able to obtain some more.

Bogs

Offline Bernd

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2009, 07:48:32 PM »
John,

A curiosity question. Why not put the non-moveable jaw against the finished surface of the angle plate? It would seem to me that the vise would be lined up better.

Also, is that a bit of surface rust on that angle plate?  ::)

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

bogstandard

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2009, 08:40:22 PM »
Bernd,

I thought of the other way, but as it was, I struggled by myself for nearly an hour to get the thing on there. It would have meant me swinging the angle plate thru 180degs to get the face I required to the top. My body nearly gave out, so as it was safe, and accurate, I left it alone. Job is done now, so it must have been right.

Yes, that is rust, not bad, seeing it stood outside in all weathers for about 6 months. I think I gave Ralph the good one. It is only on the surface, it will easily come off with a hammer and chisel, with a bit of angle grinding thrown in for good measure.

Actually it is just a minor patina, it looks worse than it is.

Bogs

Offline Bernd

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2009, 09:18:08 AM »
Bogs,

After I wrote that I went back and ponderd that picture for a while. Knowing you I was wondering how you even got to that point. I figured you might have conned the other half into picking it up for you by telling her it would build up her biceps. :) Glad you got a good job out of it after all that heavy lifting. Makes all perfect sense now.

Ah yes, patina. I should have known. Live and learn.  :lol:

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline Darren

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2009, 05:17:03 PM »
I was going to make some pillow blocks for my engine build tonight. Having realised how accurate these need to be I decided that a vice backstop was high priority.
So I basically copied John with his design.

My vice was already threaded on both sides and tonight I finally found a bolt to fit. Alas it was too short, but it did allow me to find out what the thread in the vice was.
It turned out to be 3/16 something or other thread. That's just a Nats whotsit smaller than 5mm at 4.762mm. Even better the thread form was the same pitch as far as I could tell. A 5mm bolt wouldn't go in so I simply tapped the threads with a 5mm tap.

Job done, easy for a change  :)

Now for the stop,
An old lathe tool with the tip missing....no not guilty, it came to me this way somewhere along the line...



As I said I basically followed Johns lead



The slot turned out to.....erm..I dunno, didn't measure it  :scratch: I didn't have a 5mm milling cutter so I has to use a 6mm and then I cleaned the sides up to finish them off.
So now I needed a bush, (John, it machined this bit of steel beautifully, it always left a rough finish on steel before  :thumbup:)





Cut the end off with the bandsaw, and milled it square



Time to de-bur the edges. I used to use emery for years and years, but lately I have really come to appreciate these diamond plates. I think they are wonderful. Remove metal fast, accurately and give you a good feel for what you are doing. The finish is also superb, like using 1000 grit paper but at the speed of 240 grit.



A closer view, I also used one to chamfer my toolpost made of that really tough metal.



Finished stop fitted to the vice, notice I screw a long bolt fully into the vice nice and tight. I then adjust the stop with a nut and not the bolt itself. This is much kinder to the vice cast iron threads.



Now that's done maybe I can get on with the engine build...... :)

 

« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 05:19:55 PM by Darren »
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ja2on

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2009, 06:25:12 PM »
where can I purchase a diamond plate ?

Offline Darren

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2009, 06:31:35 PM »
I got mine down at the Saturday market stall in town. About a fiver each, I got three grades but you only really need the coarse one. The medium and fine are nice to have but not essential. They will last you a very long time.

Don't get the ones with holes in, they are rubbish for our use in my opinion. And they flex. Make sure you find one that is solid that you can't flex.

Let me know if you have any trouble and I'll see if my chap has any more, he didn't last time I went but you never know.

BTW, credit goes to John for these, he put me onto them.
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Offline Darren

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2009, 06:35:58 PM »
Sorry John I've hijacked your thread...... :bow:
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ja2on

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2009, 06:42:57 PM »
Darren I should have tried ebay befor asking silly questions  :doh:
does this look like your diamond plate ?
unfortunately the seller does not give the size
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PROFESSIONAL-DIAMOND-SHARPENING-STONE-COARSE_W0QQitemZ110373411704QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Hand_Tools_Equipment?hash=item110373411704&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1688|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

Offline Darren

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2009, 06:49:37 PM »
That looks like the one Jason, you won't regret it.....if you go for it come back to us and let us all know how you get on with it  :thumbup:
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 06:59:50 PM by Darren »
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Offline Darren

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bogstandard

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2009, 07:59:52 PM »
Don't worry Darren, two builds in one will spice it up a little. Mine is slightly different to yours anyway, as you will find out in a bit.

With ref to the diamond laps. If possible use a little bowl of water with them, and keep rinsing them off, otherwise the diamond chips get clogged up with the metal you are removing, and they soon lose efficiency. Darren is perfectly correct, the ones with holes in are no use for small tooling, they are designed for use with large tooling like carpenters chisels and plane blades, where the cutting edges can straddle the holes.

Now back to my 'watching paint dry' post. It was going to be done in three parts, but after knocking myself out with the vice the last time, I couldn't get done as much as I wanted this time. So it will now be in four parts.

So now back to it, part three of this enthralling post (yawn).

I am making mine more of a permanent fixture than Darrens one, and in this post it shows where our paths divide.

The second piece of this job to be made is the standoff from the vice, here it is ready to have a thread cut on the end using an 8mm die, power fed. This bit of thread screws into the vice.




The 3/4" bar was parted off at about 25mm long, remounted the other way around, faced up and an 8mm thread was power cut in to a depth of 18mm.




Parts 1 and 2. Getting really exciting now, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz




So now using part 1 as a gauge. An 8mm spigot was cut on the end of the rusty old bar. Part 1 was put onto the now emerging part 3, and marked to where it stuck out of the slot.
An 8mm thread was cut on the spigot until it was just further along the spigot than where it was marked. The thread was trimmed to a length of 15mm from where it protruded out of the slot, this will make sure it doesn't bottom out in the hole in part 2.




You can just make out where the plain portion finishes and the thread starts inside the groove. This makes sure there is plenty of tightening length to clamp the parts together.




This is how they will assemble together.




A spot of threadlock was put on the threads of part #2 and it was screwed into its permanent position on the vice. I don't want this part screwing out of the vice while I am undoing the clamp handle.




This is where I wake up and start to get excited. The part I had just made (#3) was in fact the first part of the clamp handle. This shows the second bit of the handle partially completed.
As with my lathe, when I fitted handles to it, I kept within the look of the lathe. This time, I want to try to keep the same look as the mill, and at the top is a sample of the handles used on the mill.
Unfortunately I don't have one of those new fangled ball turning watzits yet, so I am going to have to revert to my 'old' ways, and use my hands.




Using a profile cutter in the toolpost, coupled with a bit of hand/eye coordination, I roughed out the basic shape of the handle.




Machining time was now over, using various shapes of files, I gently stroked the handle into shape. The piece of paper behind is to make it easier to see the contours of the handle being made. This still isn't quite to shape, there are still a few straights and bulges to get rid of or blend together. After the filing came emery cloth, followed by fine wire wool.




This handle took about 40 minutes to profile, from start to finish. It isn't a perfect match, but close enough for me.




So a few more little bits to make and a bit more hand profiling, and we will be able to see if it was all worthwhile.


Bogs


« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 09:50:33 PM by bogstandard »

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Mill vice backstop
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2009, 09:19:44 PM »


My vice was already threaded on both sides and tonight I finally found a bolt to fit. Alas it was too short, but it did allow me to find out what the thread in the vice was.
It turned out to be 3/16 something or other thread. That's just a Nats whotsit smaller than 5mm at 4.762mm. Even better the thread form was the same pitch as far as I could tell. A 5mm bolt wouldn't go in so I simply tapped the threads with a 5mm tap.

2BA thread

JS.
John Stevenson