Author Topic: Bog's Paddleduck Engine  (Read 99401 times)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #150 on: July 01, 2009, 01:08:59 AM »
Well done Kirk

That engine really looks the business  :thumbup:

Now your down to the fine tuning bit you'll soon get it running.


Have Fun

Stew
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #151 on: July 01, 2009, 02:13:01 AM »
That`s looking good now Kirk!  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline kvom

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #152 on: July 02, 2009, 04:35:46 PM »
It seems thje large the engine, the more metal is rubbing together and the more there is friction to overcome.  After I took one piston and both crossheads out of the driveline and oiled up everything, the mechanism turns pretty eadily.  I did run it on an electric drill for a minute or two.

To reduce the friction in the crossheads more, I opened up the mounting holes in the top plate and polished the guide bars: 3 grades of abrasive tape and then scotchbrite.

In yet another way to construct a piston and rod combo, I made a new rod threaded only on the crosshead end.  I then took the existing piston, which fits the cylinder well) and reamed out the threaded hole to 3/16" to match the drill rod.  I was hoping for a press fit, but got a reasonable sliding fit.  But the rod and piston should be straight.  When I fitted the combo into the cylinder and gland both slide well.  However when I screwed the rod into the crosshead it became evident that the threaded hole in the crosshead is not perfectly vertical.  However, there seems to be enough play in the crosshead guide bars that it will work.  So I put some loctite on the piston/and rod, and am waiting for it to dry before seeing if the entire mechanism can be made to turn freely under hand pressure.

Once I get the engine tuned it may make sense to replace the loctite with a silver solder joint.

Offline kvom

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #153 on: July 03, 2009, 08:20:53 PM »
Another day of "fiddly stuff" in the shop, interspersed with watching Roddick beat Murray at Wimbledon (sorry you Brits!  :ddb:)

Getting everything to turn smoothly with so many moving parts and sources of friction can be a little frustrating.  The first thing I noticed was that the flywheel was rubbing on the base plate, as I had milled the flat for the set screw a bit too narrow.  It also seems that every time I took something apart to fix or adjustt, on replacement something else would bind.  The next item to need attention is the bottom corners of the eccentric straps, which catch on the base plate from time to time.

In any case, I now have both pistons adjusted, and will try to get to the valves this weekend.  I have to go out of town for a few days starting  Sunday, so I'm not sure when the first trial run will be.


Offline kvom

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #154 on: July 10, 2009, 05:05:54 PM »
Finally got back to the shop after some days away tending to family business.  I made a pair of support bars from 1/3" square brass bar, to do away with the temporary 4 screws serving as feet.  Then back to fiddling.

First fix was to ream out the through holes on the stream chests, as a couple of the screws seemed to be binding and promoting a small gap between it and the block.  Then I noticed that one of the cranks was hitting the center opening in the base plate, so I took off the plate and enlarged the width of the hole by .100".  

After reinstalling and connecting one connecting rod only, I found that the mechanism would turn easily in one direction, but stick in the other.  It seems that the connecting rod angle is greater in one direction and thus induces some binding when trying to raise or lower the crosshead.  If I turn the engine upside down then it will turn in both directions, although less easily in one direction.

Currently the guide bars are a smooth sliding fit in the crosshead holes; I'm wondering if reducing their diameter would allow increase or decrease the tendency to bind.

I could also tune the engine to run in the "good" direction to run it in, and then switch the air supply to test out the reverse.


bogstandard

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #155 on: July 10, 2009, 05:27:34 PM »
Kirk,

There is definitely something not square.

The whole engine is built along a common centreline, so the centre of the cylinder head cap is on the same centre as crank. So it should turn equally as easily in both directions.

The only thing that isn't centre line dependent are the four bars that the crossheads run up and down on. That should be your first search area. Slacken them all off, or even take them out altogether, and see if you have the same friction in both directions then. If it still binds on one side, then it isn't the crosshead or bars that are causing the problems. Do not run the engine without the crosshead fully built up, it is that which prevents wear on your bottom cylinder bearing and gland.

John

Offline shred

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #156 on: July 11, 2009, 01:14:14 AM »
Also check your packnuts on the cylinders and valves.  They gave me no end of friction trouble since I got the threads a little off-axis-- if yours get tighter and looser as you turn them around the rod, they may have the same problem. 

Offline ozzie46

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #157 on: July 11, 2009, 08:31:56 AM »
  Shred

 How did you correct the problem of the packing nuts? I'm building this engine too.

   Ron

Offline shred

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #158 on: July 11, 2009, 10:04:24 AM »
 Shred

 How did you correct the problem of the packing nuts? I'm building this engine too.

   Ron
At the moment, careful tuning.  I put them about where they're supposed to be, then rotate them and the matching rod until they both run free.  Then a dab of loctite or superglue onto the threads to hold the packnut in place (if not, they gradually tighten themselves to the point of binding).  I considered redoing them a couple different ways.  Since I've been playing with O-rings a lot lately, were I to redo them, I'd try a Kozo-style O-ring gland (I have his book that discusses them, I have no idea if the design is original to him, likely not given how things are in this business); basically it looks like the packnuts on this engine except not threaded and there's an o-ring seat where the packing goes.  A sideways set-screw holds the 'packnut' in place (it must fit well in the o-ring bore)

Since I just went through and re-turned my engine the other night, here's how I went about it-- Starting with an assembled engine that doesn't want to run, even if timed correctly (check this! I messed it up for days of frustration)

1 - Separate the top and bottom halves.  Pull the piston and valve pins and undo the tops of the columns.  Now you have the crank half separate from the block half .
2 - While you are separating, check the con-rods and eccentric joints are free-- I found that bead-blasting peened one enough to rub.  Fix those.
3 - Make sure the crank and bits turn free (dangle it upside down or whatever to keep the con rods and eccentrics from crashing into things).  The crank must be smooth and free-running, no binding, or rough spots.  Often a little bit of bar protrudes or a crank web or con-rod rubs on something else. Fix all of that, then set the cranks and timing on the bottom end and set it aside.

4 - Now address the top.  Without mucking with it (you took it off an engine you thought would run, right?), pull and push the various rods. Run them to the full extent of their travels-- take note of any drag, friction, binding and rough spots.  Drag going from one direction to the other at the ends of the travels is a bigger problem than a little running friction between the end points and often indicates an alignment issue.
5 - Starting one at a time, with one moving part (one valve or one piston), fiddle with the adjustments.  Bogs left a ton of adjustments in this thing.  So many sometimes it's hard to know what to fiddle with.  Loosen everything up-- gland bolts, packnut (undo it completely), crossheads, etc and make sure the main bit moves correctly and smoothly.  If not, fix it.  Then start tightening stuff back up, starting with the gland bolts, then the packnuts, then the crossheads checking all along the way, both ends of travel, fixing the problems that come up.  

6 - If there are alignment problems, you may have to drill some holes a little larger to get more wiggle room.  If something is way out of wack, you'll probably need to redo it.  One adjustment to play with as well is the main block baseplate.  That has wiggle room and alignment for the crossheads as well.  Pull the glands and pistons all the way out, then put them partway back onto the crossheads, so the piston is just out of the cylinder-- do the pistons line up with the bore?  If not, tweak the baseplate over a bit so they do.

7 - Fiddle with the crossheads and get the pistons running as smoothly as possible.

8 - Recheck and reassemble.  Time the valve spools and apply air.  If your valve spools only run free in one orientation, you'll have to be careful when setting the timing-- set it by screwing the joint, not by rotating the spool.

Hope this helps
 - Roy
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 02:11:15 PM by shred »

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #159 on: July 11, 2009, 10:37:08 AM »
Kirk,

1st, what a nice job you have been doing on this build. I think I speak for everyone, we are very grateful you are doing a build log!  :smart:

2nd, between what you have learned and the great advice you have gotten from our members you will have it running like a top in no time.  :dremel:

 :clap:

Eric
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Offline ozzie46

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #160 on: July 11, 2009, 01:28:31 PM »
Thanks a lot Shred,

Mine turns over but it is stiff. I haven't made the spool valves and eccentrics or steam chest yet.

 I have fiddled with it some but it needs more. I figure I will get the other bits made and try again to be sure I check everything.

  Ron

Offline kvom

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #161 on: July 11, 2009, 08:32:29 PM »
Some good advice above.  Back in the shop this afternoon, I fiddled a little with this and that, but cam to the conclusion that I needed to back up to "square 1".  I disassembled the bottom so that I was left with the base plate and the 4 bearings.  Turns out one bearing was loose, so I decided to make sure that the entire crankshaft asssembly would be square and straight. 

I pushed a 1/4" length of drill rod that I had checked for straightness on the surface plate through the bearings.  I tightened down on end bearing and left the others loose.  Then I clamped the plate on the mill vise, and using the edge finder zeroed the DRO on the drill rod at the fixed end.  I then moved the edge finder to the other end and pushed the rod against it while tightening down the bearing's screws.  Now I had both end bearings tight and parallel to the centerline, so I could tighten down the two center bearings.  Now I had al 4 bearings lined up and parallel, but the rod was too tight to turn by finger pressure.   The DRO indicated that the rod was parallel to the fixed jaw within .001" over its 6 inch length.

Next I applied some toothpaste as a lapping compound and hooked up the electric drill to turn the rod in the bearings.  After some minutes it did loosen a bit.  I then clamped the assembly vertically in the vise and used the mill to turn the rod, meaning I didn't have to hold the drill trigger down.  I ran this for about 5 minutes, and while the rod was not loose I could just turn it with finger pressure.  I reassembled the crank components along with the webs, but I still had too much drag.   :hammer:  So next time I will put it back in the mill and run the rod until I can turn it easily through all 4 bearings.  I don't think any other adjustments make sense until the crank is straight with little friction.

As for the top side, I can manually slide the valves and pistons with the gland nuts loose or tight.  I suspect part of my previous problem was that the crank pin was not square, causing the connecting rod to twist slightly as it rotates.  I did verify with the height gauge that the top plate is parallel to the base plate.  Once I have top and bottom reconnected, I can use the DRO to ensure that the block is both centered and parallel to the center line.

Not that much different from debugging software in a way. :scratch:

bogstandard

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #162 on: July 12, 2009, 12:19:57 AM »
This is always the worst part Kirk.

You have everything made within tolerances, but once those tolerances are added together it gives a problem.

It could be such a small thing as the bearing block heights, one on high tolerance and one on low equals trouble. Rather than trying to wear them in, take them off, put them on your drill rod as a block and pushing down fairly hard, swipe the blued up bases across a piece of smooth W&D resting on a flat plate. That will instantly show highs and lows. So then gently flat all the bases down (held as a block and mounted onto the bar in the same order as they are on the baseplate) until you have a nice complete matched set. It only has to have one 0.0005" higher or lower than the others and it will bind when you tighten them up.
Only then should you bed them in with the drill.

Logical and methodical is the way forwards.

You are very nearly there, don't let it beat you on the final straight.

John

Offline kvom

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #163 on: July 12, 2009, 08:09:09 AM »
My brain might be a little weak this morning.  What"s "W&D"?  :scratch:

Offline shred

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #164 on: July 12, 2009, 08:54:03 AM »
My brain might be a little weak this morning.  What"s "W&D"?  :scratch:
Wet & Dry sandpaper is my guess.  A fairly fine grit-- the idea is to scrape the blue (layout die or magic marker would work; I use that a lot for fitting) off the 'low' one.  Depending how much they're out, I suppose you could sand the assembled block-o-bearings into shape or flip them over and tickle them with an end mill; just make sure the bases and rod remain completely parallel.
 
Running-in works for some tight fits, but it will only make alignment problems worse by wallowing out misaligned parts.  

A couple other things I forgot to mention earlier was when tuning the assembled engine:

--- I chucked the end of the crankshaft in a small drill chuck (use a tailstock chuck if you haven't got a loose drill chuck running around.  I have no idea how I got so many loose chucks.. they must breed under the bench  ::)).  That is much easier to turn by hand and get a good feel for what's going on than trying to push the flywheel around.

-- Another thing to try when tuning is loosening the crank web on the #1 (awaymost from the flywheel) piston, disconnecting the front end of the engine from the other.  If needed, you can make an extendo-rod for the front end eccentric and turn just the front end as well.  The engine won't run like that without a much larger flywheel, but you can get a feel for where the problems are.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 09:18:47 AM by shred »

Offline kvom

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #165 on: July 13, 2009, 12:29:06 PM »
I think I have the crankshaft assembly sorted.  Following some of the above suggestions, I removed the bearing blocks, keeping themn in order and attached to the drill rod.  I placed them on the surface plate, and while pressing down on all 4 with one hand I was still able to turn the rod with finger pressure on the other.  Assuming from this that the hole heights were sufficiently equal, my suspicions turned to the base plate.  I deburred all 8 mounting holes and also around the sides of all of the plate openings.  Then I placed the blocks onto the base plate, still with the drill through the bores, and placed a brick on top of the blocks.  I was still able to turn the rod, so I felt that perhaps the problem was solved.  I reassembled the entire crank assembly, tightened up all of the screws, and I am now able to turn the flywheel and everything else with finger pressure.   :beer:

When I have time again, I will repeat the exercise with the edge finder on the mill to ensure that the crank assembly is parallel to the center line before reattaching the top.

Thanks to all for the advice.   :thumbup:

Offline kvom

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #166 on: July 14, 2009, 07:52:00 PM »
Short update:

Got it all together, and with a bit more fiddling got it to a point where the shaft turns under finger pressure in both directions.  The piston throw is where it should be, but I resisted the urge to start adjusting the valves and the other tuning tasks, as I had limited time to see it through.

I will get to try to turn the columns on the CNC lathe at school tomorrow afternoon, and have spent quite some time writing the g-code to do so.  It still isn't coming out the way I want, however.

Offline kvom

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #167 on: July 16, 2009, 06:19:27 PM »
My first try at running failed.   :scratch:

I went through the chapter on tuning, and as far as I can tell the various components are set as indicated.  I tried to adjust the bottom with the engine assembled, but found that tightening the crank webs sufficiently was a problem.  Having a set of T-handle allen wrenches would have been an advantage.  So I removed the top to adjust the bottom.  Of course, when I put it back together things were stickly again.  Eventually, as usual, the issue is traced to the crosshead guide rods, which seem to have to be "just so".  I decided to ignore the problem for the time being and removed one of the rods from each crosshead.

My bits of threaded rod connecting the valves to the eccentrics were too long, so I had to reduce the lengths to get the valves set in the indicated positions.  Once that was done I screwed on the top caps and replaced the blanking plates. 

Then I discovered that while the input barb for the engine is for 1/8" tubing, my regulator takes 1/4".  Sp it was off to the local hardware looking for a reducer with different size barbs on each end.  No luck there, so I came home intending to make one on the lathe.  While rummaging in some storage drawers, I found a Schraider valve with 1/4" NP threads, so I decided to put that as the engine input and hook up the regulator used for filling tires.   ::)

Since it takes two hands to maneuver the hose, I couldn't see everywhere the air was escaping (engine didn't turn whatsoever).  I did see oil all over one of the joints between the block and the steam chest.  I need to enlarge the holes in the blanking plates and shorten a couple of the screws to get a tighter seal.  I'll also make a double barb connector so that I can run the air hands-free and try to see where the leaks are.

Any other ideas gratefully solicited.

Offline Darren

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #168 on: July 16, 2009, 06:38:55 PM »
You seem to be struggling with getting this one going, sorry can't help as you are way, way further than I am with this build.
But I wish you luck....

I was only looking at mine tonight thinking tomorrow I must make some more bits.... :ddb:
My enthusiasm has been swayed by not being able to source material for the block, but I'm still looking....
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #169 on: July 16, 2009, 08:29:54 PM »
Kirk,

I have no suggestions as I haven't built this engine. So nothing technical from me... that said, for me, if I put something down I am having problems with and leave it alone for a few days... I find going back to it is like going back with fresh eyes.

Hope it helps

Eric
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We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline Bernd

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #170 on: July 16, 2009, 09:38:24 PM »
Kirk,

I was looking through your thread for a picture of the engine assembled and found one.

Are you still using the same pillars when you assemble the top and bottom?

I'm wondering if there could be a possibility that one or more of the columns are not the right length and you could be twisting the bottom frame were the bearing blocks are. Try leaving the bottom four or top four bolts some what loose and see if the engine turns over.

It's just a thought and I don't think has been mentioned before.

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #171 on: July 17, 2009, 01:34:05 AM »
Hi Kirk

Good advice from Eric put it down for a couple of days and get on with something else, when you pick it up to have another go you'll have fresh eyes.

A good approach is to strip it down and assemble it up again checking each part and assembly as you go for tightness misalignment etc etc correcting things as you go, try and work methodically, a lot of the time it not just one thing but an accumulation of little things that are at fault.

Good luck

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline kvom

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #172 on: July 17, 2009, 08:09:22 AM »
Thanks for the inputs.

It will probably be a few days until I can get to this again.  Since the engine does turn manually as it is now, I am assuming that air pressure in the cylinder would push the pistons down and I would see some movement.  Since the hole between the steam chest and the block is so small, I'm thinking that an imperfect fit with the block would let the air escape more easily.

Once I get a better connector for the air supply, I want to remove the top caps and verify that air is entering the cylinder.  I'll also try to verify that the tuning setup is correct per the manual.  It's not clear how sensitive the setup is, esp. as to the valves.

The 4 temporary columns do have the same length, to within .001".  I did start the CNC bling versions this week, but because of limited access to the HAAS lathe I was able to run only the first of the two necessary gcode programs.  It will be week after next before I can get them finished.

It would have been too easy if it ran the first time.   :scratch:

Offline Bernd

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #173 on: July 17, 2009, 09:52:20 AM »
The 4 temporary columns do have the same length, to within .001". 

Well, that at least it eliminates one problem then. Good.

You'll get it running eventually. Just keep at it.

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline kvom

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Re: Bog's Paddleduck Engine
« Reply #174 on: July 17, 2009, 09:26:12 PM »
Since I got my Jeep repairs done early, I had a few minutes to fab up a quick and dirty adapter so that I could run air to the engine.  At 40 psi the small tubing blew off the engine inlet, so I think I will looks for a 1/4 x 1/8 barb that will be thick enough for a hose clamp.

In the meantime, I found out the following:

1) The biggest air flow out is coming from the #2 valve gland.

2) There is "some" air exiting from the exhaust ports.

3) When I turn the engine by hand, I feel increasing resistance as the pistons approach TDC.  At the top there is enough pressure to turn the crank 180 degrees.  So air is getting into the cylinders from the steam chest.

I'll be away all day Saturday Jeeping, but Sunday I can investigate further.