Author Topic: Clock wheel cutter  (Read 54518 times)

Offline raynerd

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Clock wheel cutter
« on: October 24, 2009, 04:03:06 PM »
I fancy having a go at making a clock wheel of course building up to my long term plans of a full clock build but before I can even consider the wheel, I`d need to make the cutter. In my plans that I ultimately want to use, the plans specify the wheel Pitch circle diameter, number of teeth and module cutter to use. Consequently I`ll need to make the specific cutter determined by the "module", so I decided to try and make a 0.8 module cutter and find the measurements to make the cutter! I had some learning to do and this is what I found:



So the most important measurements as far as I can see are:

1. dedendum - the distance between the bottom of the tooth to the pitch circle diameter.
2. addendum - distance between pitch circle diameter to the end of the tooth
3. Distance between tooth = (normally) = width of tooth
4. Radius of arc that forms the tooth.

Obviously this changed a little when your making the cutter as of course your cutting the gap and consequently forming half of two adjacent teeth.

I then found this site which has lots of formula for how the module relates to these dimensions. I can`t find a link to the site but I saved the image, here is the table:



So that kind of helped but now got me a bit hung up on this idea of module, as to me the minute you specified a module I expected that you were specifying or dictating a specific wheel (I thought this due to the link in the formula) needless to say I was wrong. It took me a while but I put together this spreadsheet which gave me examples of using the same module on two different sized wheels - so I used a module 0.5 cutter on a 1 pcd and 2 pcd wheel and then did the same calculations but using a 1 module cutter.

http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/Gearing.xls

This proved in my head that in actual fact the module DOES dictate the tooth dimensions, simply if you’re using another sized wheel you are just adding teeth onto that wheel but with the same profile. Now I was happy that the module cutter is a specific cutter for a specific tooth form. I then calculated the dimensions for a 0.8 module cutter which is what I wanted to make - this is on the far right of the spreadsheet.
There are currently no formula in the spreadsheet but I am working on adding this (that is what the notes page is for) and if I finish it, I`ll post it up. I used a pen and calc and simply used excel to tabulate the info.

OK, well now I have the dimensions for the 0.8 module cutter:
Tooth arc diameter required would be 2.51968 mm (it was actually worked out as a radius for the arc but the way I`ll be forming it, described later will require the diameter). The addendum for this tooth profile is 0.0424 inches (1.07696 mm) and the dedendum is 0.0496 inches (1.25984 mm). Gap between teeth is 1.25mm

I have heard good things about John Shadle's wheel cutter as it is fully supported. The standard single point/tooth flycutter style is said to often brake and if it blunts during cutting, resharpening often changed the size. John's version is really clever as the forming tooth is fully supported by the body of the cutter:

http://onlineclockbuilding.com/DOWNLOADS/flycut.rtf


....... and sometimes I can do maths, but from here on in I am a novice. I`ll let the pictures do most of the talking:

My slither of apparently silver steel that I picked up from the scrappy. 2inc dia and about 8mm thick. Little bit of steel round stock to be used as the madrel:



Making the mandrel:



Mistake number one - I threaded the mandrel, I think M8 and tried to hold the steel blank. Whenever I hit something a bit tought it just spun the disk. When I tried to tighten the bolt I threaded it and it just spun! Why did I thread it and did I do something wrong?


Steel blank being drilled:


So I had to drill the mandrel fully through and bolt the steel blank on using a bolt pulling it all the way through. It worked a treat but wasn`t as neat as my original idea.......comments appreciated:


Then I used my parting off, grooving tool to cut the dedendum on each side to the correct depth and also gain the correct tooth gap or in this case, width of the tip of the cutter:


Then I needed to put the radius on which I did using a 2.5mm drill bit. I made a template by drilling a 2.5mm hole and cutting it in half. I was going to use that tool next to it but it was too hard to get it to size.


So I used an old 2.5mm drill and hand ground the radius on the end. I`m sure there must be a more accurate way but this is how John described doing it. I got it quite accurate and it seemed to fit the template well, it was just fiddly and very hard to mount in the tool post:


I then prodded the sides to add the addendum that would create the tooth tip profile:


Then dismanltled it all:


Then chopped it in half and started to give it some profile:



Then I drilled the off-set mounting hole and I think you can see the tip profile on this photo. I still have some sharpening and profiling to do but it is there! If you open the link I sent of John's article you will see that by mounting this off set hole in the arbor you automatically create relief below the cut.



So, there we go!

Will it cut a wheel?  Is it silver steel (seems very soft, definitely needs hardening!)?

I`m not too sure but I feel good that I`ve made it! Next job is to harden it and I may even purchase some case hardening compound.

What is the best way to mount this on the arbor? I just think that if I thread a hole on a mandrel it will spin and not hold properly like when I tried mounting the original blank earlier in the post. I could do with a key way or perhaps bolt it in two places...any suggestions?

All the best.
Chris






Offline sbwhart

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2009, 04:39:48 PM »
Nice going Chris

You've certainly jumped in with this one. Makeing a clock is something I wan't to have a go at, I've read a number of diferent methods for making the tooth cutter, one thing that struck me is the crudness of the methods. I think of a clock as a presition instrument, but when you read how they made early clocks you realise that even using crude methods and the minimum of tooling you can make an intrument that will keep accuratle time.

Any way if it is silver steel the fly cutter is made of it won't case harden. What you need to do is heat it to cherry red and quench it in water, then polish it up, then yoo need to aneal it back a bit, to do this heat it up again on a bed of sand (this slows the temp rise) until its a straw colour then quench it again in water.

You need to make the arbour with a plain diameter thats a nice fit on the cutter with a short threaded length to take the bolt it will look like this



Hope this helps

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline raynerd

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 02:31:14 AM »
Stew, thanks for the help. So basically I need an external thread that I can slip the cutter onto it and then bolt up. Would you bolt up directly against the cutter or would you slip on a washer to give more surface contact against the cutter. I can just imagine it not locking it tight enough and when it comes to cutting the wheel it spinning the cutter around rather than making the cut. I know commercial cutters have a notch or keyway in the mandrel and cutter to stop it spinning.

Chris

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 02:49:11 AM »
Yes a washer would be a good idea  :thumbup:

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline raynerd

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 02:52:32 AM »
Thankyou  :wave:

Got half term week off so I should give this a go over the next few days.

I`m still questioning whether this was silver steel - seems on the softer side.

Offline Gerhard Olivier

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 04:16:49 AM »
On hardening I have been advised once to heat to cherry red and quench and then anneal by putting it in the deep fat frier ( chip maker) cold then heat to max for 30min and turn the power off.  This is supposed to heat slowly to 190-200 deg and then cool slowly.????

I have never tried it because I have always heated it so just the cutting end is cherry red so -hardening only the tip.

About slipping -A washer and nut should do just feed slowly as the cutting pressure would be interupted.


Hope some of this helps.

Gerhard
Guernsey
Channel Islands

Offline raynerd

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2009, 05:54:18 AM »
Geroli - with the tip on my cutter being fully supported I wondered also whether to head the cutting edge to cherry red and not aneal it. It will be brittle but very hard and unlikely to shatter because of the cutter shape... ?

Chris

Offline raynerd

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2009, 07:30:59 AM »
 :( 

Stew, just spent a while in the shop making an arbour for this cutter as you suggested. The hole in the cutter is 5mm so I made the arbour and threaded it M5. As I predicted (because it has happened to me before) when I came to tighten up the bolt against the cutter and put some proper force against it, the bolt just started to spin and ruin my thread!

I`m using an M5 domer die but something is clearly not right with my thread. Any suggestions - as I described in my first post this also happened the other way around when I threaded my bore in the mandrel to hold the cutter blank when I tightened up the bolt it started to spin in the hole.

I`m using force but nothing excessive....

Anyone help?

Offline andyf

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 08:23:28 AM »
Chris, is there enough room on the face of the mandrel and in the tool to fit an off-centre locating peg? Then, you wouldn't have to clamp up so hard - the peg, not the tightness of the bolt, would stop the tool spinning.

Looking at your tool, it strikes me that if it does turn out to be silver steel, the tip might be a bit brittle if you don't temper after hardening it, particularly with the constant hammering of an interrupted cut.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline 75Plus

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 09:34:20 AM »
Would you bolt up directly against the cutter or would you slip on a washer to give more surface contact against the cutter. I can just imagine it not locking it tight enough and when it comes to cutting the wheel it spinning the cutter around rather than making the cut.

Chris

Cupping the washer slightly will increase the pressure on its periphery when the screw is tightened.

Joe

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 11:56:28 AM »
Chris

Don't know what your doing wrong can you post a pic of the bits to give us a clue.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Offline sorveltaja

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 01:15:43 PM »
:(  

Stew, just spent a while in the shop making an arbour for this cutter as you suggested. The hole in the cutter is 5mm so I made the arbour and threaded it M5. As I predicted (because it has happened to me before) when I came to tighten up the bolt against the cutter and put some proper force against it, the bolt just started to spin and ruin my thread!

I`m using an M5 domer die but something is clearly not right with my thread. Any suggestions - as I described in my first post this also happened the other way around when I threaded my bore in the mandrel to hold the cutter blank when I tightened up the bolt it started to spin in the hole.

I`m using force but nothing excessive....

Anyone help?

Hmm.. what are the dimensions(diameters) you use, when making an M5 thread :scratch:?  Be it tapping or an external thread?
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 01:24:12 PM by sorveltaja »

Offline raynerd

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2009, 02:59:19 PM »
Hi Guys, I`ll post a picture later, I`ve been at a family part all afternoon. I can thread the bolt on tight and then when I come to give it the extra "nip" it turns the bolt about half a turn and loses any sort of torque. I guess it must be stripping the thread? I`ve re-done it but I don`t dare give it that extra that it needs, it is really tight so I think I`m going to go with AndyF suggestion of an offset locating pin. Basically I have room to put in a short M4 stub off centre that will butt up against the cutter and give me added piece of mind that it isn`t going to slip.

Picture later.

Chris

Offline raynerd

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2009, 07:41:09 PM »
Ok well, here it is at present. Sorry picture is rubbish, taken on my phone as I didn`t have the camera handy:





This new thread seems to have tightened up much better but I still don`t want to put on the extra little nip for fear of stripping it. As you can see on the photo, there is plenty of room to add a small pin at the bottom to stop it rotating. Now, I must confess, being new to this hobby I like to ensure everything is the best it can be for practice and if it isn`t, I start again but I did have a quite useful accident. I went to thread the ofset pin hole and I picked up one of my cheapo m4 taps, needless to say it snapped in the hole but with about 15mm depth and left a little stub about 4mm above the surface sticking out! Now I did consider grinding this flat and tapping the other side but to be honest, although it was a dreadful mistake, it is serving an excellent purpose so I` going to leave it. No picture but again I`ll take on tomorrow. I think this bolt has actually locked it up but at least I know it won`t spin with the stub in place.

So next job tomorrow is to try and harden it and then it should be ready for a trial wheel run. Certainly looks good and a bit of fine tuning of the method I should be able to make some pretty accurate cutters. I think I`ve learnt a lot from making this one.

Chris
« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 07:43:44 PM by craynerd »

Offline andyf

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2009, 08:39:11 PM »
Chris, the end-on pic shows why holding it by a single nut is probably doomed to failure. The tool-tip will hit the work on the interrupted cut, and any tiny shift of the tool will be anti-clockwise. That will tend to loosen the nut, and the next contact will make things worse, so you will end up with the arbor rotating and the tool stationary  :(.


Thinking about it, it might have been better to drill and tap the end of the mandrel and use a bolt to secure the tool. Your nut is probably only about 4 or 5 threads deep, and common or garden nuts are often a sloppy fit and made of something almost, but not entirely, quite unlike proper steel. A bolt 15mm into the mandrel would engage over about 18 threads. That might solve the stripped thread problem, though the tool and bolt would still be knocked anti-clockwise in the absence of something like a pin to support the tool.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

bogstandard

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2009, 11:16:28 PM »
Do you know that the cutter is mounted in the wrong direction for cutting?

If it was the other way around, it would be trying to tighten the nut rather than undo it.



Bogs

Offline raynerd

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2009, 04:22:19 AM »
No I didn`t, thanks for pointing it out! I`ve just flipped it around now and understand exactly what you mean. I didn`t consider that  :doh:

Chris

Offline NickG

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2009, 06:06:23 AM »
Chris,

Also, when making the arbor, did you do it with an accurate plain diameter that fits into the hole in the cutter?

I noticed that when you made your arbor for making the cutter you didn't really, it was just mounted on the thread of the bolt which isn't the most accurate. Also, you then took it out of the chuck, losing any concentricity you had machined into it. So the trick for machining outside profiles is to have the component you are machining ready to bolt onto the arbor and once you have turned the accurate location diameter, you don't take it out of the chuck, mount the component on it and gently turn the OD. You have to watch the rigidity and take light cuts here though otherwise you'll get chatter and will mess the whole thing up depending on how good the arbor design is. This is the way I do things like flywheels and loco wheels etc.

What are you going to make the clock wheel out of? Presumably it's going to be very thin so you'll be taking extremely light cuts I would imagine anyway?

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2009, 06:47:57 AM »
Nick - it will be 16g (1.55mm) CZ120 brass plate.

I`ve been reading over your post and I think, if I have read your post correctly, that that is what I did with this cutter. I machined the diameter, fitted the cutter on and then continued to take it down a fraction to the threading dia without taking it out of the chuck..... is this what you mean?

Chris

Offline NickG

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2009, 06:52:21 AM »
Yeah that's right Chris, sorry, I just wasn't sure whether you did, that's the best practice. I suppose you didn't need to go to those lengths of accuracy when you were just making the profile for the cutter itself.

Good work.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Darren

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2009, 06:57:43 AM »
Yes Chris, good work, I'm following too with interest.

Agree about using a bolt an not the nut though  :thumbup:
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2009, 12:18:07 PM »
Just a quick note as I think I need a lesson in arbours.
I`ve gone right back to Stews first post where he shows a picture of an arbour. Can someone explain, if your cutter, tool, wheel blank ... whatever you are mounting is sat on the nice polished surface with no thread, clearly the bolt isn`t going to be able to be threaded down all the way to clamp it up. So what is normally used to apply the pressure from the bolt onto the piece being held.

I`ve drawn a crappy exadurated diagram incase I`m not making any sense:



Darren - sorry, what are you agreeing with? I thought I should be threading the rod and using a nut not a bolt like I intially did to hold the wheel blank?

Offline NickG

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2009, 12:34:38 PM »
The length of the plain diameter on your arbor should be marginally less than the thickness of the cutter. You could always put another nut on to lock it but as bogs said, it will try to tighten rather than loosen.
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2009, 01:16:19 PM »
 :doh:  obvious now! Ta

Chris

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Re: Clock wheel cutter
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2009, 02:08:58 PM »
When making arbors like you have, and if they are made to be used again with different thickness cutters, then you would make a recessed washer for each thickness of cutter you are going to be using.

The C-o-C below should explain it. It can be used with a threaded arbor as well as one used with a bolt.


Bogs