Author Topic: Making a granite surface plate  (Read 28727 times)

Offline Colh

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Making a granite surface plate
« on: November 15, 2010, 03:33:21 AM »
Hi Guys

A few years ago I picked up 3 pieces of black granite about a 300mm square and 30mm thick for next to nothing - probably sink cut outs from granite bench tops as they are polished on one side.  I would like to lap these together to produce 3 surface plates.  Here in Aus you pay an arm and a leg for a granite surface plate because they are imported and the freight is over the top due to the weight.

I know that by lapping 3 near flat surfaces against one another you can get all 3 'flat' - that is A to B, B to C and C to A.  I have tried to find info on the process and but have come up with a blank.

My thoughts are to use a grinding medium (I have some 240 grit Silicon carbide powder) mixed with either water or oil? then :
1.   Spread a small amount of grinding mixture onto plate A, place B on top and move in a figure 8 pattern a few time.
2.   Next Plate B on bottom and C on top
3.   Then C on bottom with A on top
Ground areas should show up as dull.

My questions are:
1.   On the next round do I rotate the bottom plate so the cutting action is in another direction? If so how much 45 degrees, 90 degrees?
2.   How do I see progress as the shine will have gone on the first round or do I just keep going until all three plates are dull over the complete surface?

Once all is done I would then like to test each plate against the others.

What kind of indicating medium do I use that will show up on granite (like using bearing blue when testing light coloured metal surfaces on surface plate)? 

I thought of using white oil based artist’s paint as I have heard bearing blue called Prussian Blue supposedly because it is Prussian Blue oil paint.  I tried got a tube of Prussian Blue oil paint from an artists supplier and it seems to work. It is also cheaper than bearing blue from machinery/bearing suppliers.

Would appreciate the comments from those who are familiar with the lapping process and any other who may like to comment on my thoughts.

Thanks

Col
Location - Geelong, Victoria, Aus

Offline Artie

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2010, 04:49:01 AM »
Hi Col, are they not flat already? I couldnt detect any deviations on mine... then again I guess its determined by just how flat you need it to be.... mines in here.... http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=9168.0

Cheers

Rob T
South Wales, wait...NEW South Wales... Batemans Bay.

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 12:11:05 PM »
Col,

I know that by lapping 3 near flat surfaces against one another you can get all 3 'flat' - that is A to B, B to C and C to A.  I have tried to find info on the process and but have come up with a blank.

My thoughts are to use a grinding medium (I have some 240 grit Silicon carbide powder) mixed with either water or oil? then :
1.   Spread a small amount of grinding mixture onto plate A, place B on top and move in a figure 8 pattern a few time.
2.   Next Plate B on bottom and C on top
3.   Then C on bottom with A on top
Ground areas should show up as dull.

My questions are:
1.   On the next round do I rotate the bottom plate so the cutting action is in another direction? If so how much 45 degrees, 90 degrees?
2.   How do I see progress as the shine will have gone on the first round or do I just keep going until all three plates are dull over the complete surface?

Once all is done I would then like to test each plate against the others.

Your basic approach is sound.  If there is a college with an astronomy program within easy contact range, go to them and ask to look at their lens grinding set-up.  It's the same technology.  You will find that 240 grid abrasive is way too rough for anything but gross finishing.  The people who grind lenses will have better polishing compounds that you can usually con them out of for an appropriate bribe (whiskey was the standard bribe back when I was a physics lab machinist 35+ years ago).  As you are going for flat, your task is actually easier.  A set of ground steel guides with a (UHMW or acetal) glides could be useful during the rougher phases.

There's a book that refuses to leap into my hands (meaning that it is probably in one of the 75 or so boxes yet to be unpacked) written circa WWI with a title like unto "Precision Means and Methods" -- I can't remember if it is a Franklin D. Jones or Frank Colvin book (neither Google nor Wikipedia helped).  It has a section on lapping various things (including surface plates) in it.  Various reprinters (such as Lindsay Publications) resurrect it from time to time, so it's not a lost cause to find a copy.  It is a truly wonderful book.

E-mail Starrett.  They will be willing to give you more information than you ever wanted to know.  It's not as if they will not understand your situation.  They are all about expanding skills.  I know that they bent over backwards helping Guy Lautard when he did a write up on surface plates.  It's not as if you are going to set yourself up as a competitor to them (is there granite in Australia?) and they know it.  However, if you lap out a surface plate, you WILL come away with a better understanding of the VALUE they bring to the marketplace, right?

Quote
What kind of indicating medium do I use that will show up on granite (like using bearing blue when testing light coloured metal surfaces on surface plate)? 

I thought of using white oil based artist’s paint as I have heard bearing blue called Prussian Blue supposedly because it is Prussian Blue oil paint.  I tried got a tube of Prussian Blue oil paint from an artists supplier and it seems to work. It is also cheaper than bearing blue from machinery/bearing suppliers.

The oil base to paints will fill quite a large gap.  True toolmaker's prussian blue (aka bearing blue) is so thin that a chunk the size of a small pea will coat (and transfer and transfer and transfer) a 4 ft X 8 ft (1.2 m X 2.4 m) plate thoroughly.  Violin makers use ground chalk (such as for snap lines) to check fits of various components.  They wipe it on one side of the joint to be fit and see what transfers to the other side of the joint.  It can be vacuumed up and cleaned off of wood with a sharp scraper -- you won't have to go that far as you can wipe it off your granite with a solvent rag.

Auto body polishing compounds work will as abrasives for this type of operation and are much finer than most of the lapping compounds you can buy today.

???

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2010, 12:12:39 PM »
As said the commercial kitchen worktops are as flat as we are likely to need, I measures a bit a few months ago as someone was asking on a woodworking forum about using them to flatten plane soles, over a 12" length I had less than 0.0005" movement on a DTI.

Jason

Offline AdeV

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2010, 06:15:36 AM »

There's a book that refuses to leap into my hands (meaning that it is probably in one of the 75 or so boxes yet to be unpacked) written circa WWI with a title like unto "Precision Means and Methods" -- I can't remember if it is a Franklin D. Jones or Frank Colvin book (neither Google nor Wikipedia helped).  It has a section on lapping various things (including surface plates) in it.  Various reprinters (such as Lindsay Publications) resurrect it from time to time, so it's not a lost cause to find a copy.  It is a truly wonderful book.


Lew,

I find Amazon to be invaluable in this cases. Searching for that title (as keywords) with both authors brought a couple of potential hits:

"American Machinist Grinding Book: Modern Machines and Appliances, Methods and Results" - Hardcover (1912) by Fred H. Colvin and Frank A. Stanley (I presume you meant Fred Colvin - can't find anything written by a Frank Colvin)

or

"Modern Toolmaking Methods - a Treatise on Precision Dividing and Locating Methods, Lapping, Making Forming Tools, Accurate Threading, Bench Lathe Practice, Tools for Precision Measurements, and General Toolmaking Practice" by Franklin D JONES (Hardcover - 1915)

2nd hand copies of both available in the UK, I've not tried the States.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline BillTodd

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2010, 09:38:20 AM »
As said the commercial kitchen worktops are as flat as we are likely to need, I measures a bit a few months ago as someone was asking on a woodworking forum about using them to flatten plane soles, over a 12" length I had less than 0.0005" movement on a DTI.

Jason

Exactly Jason, that's the critical bit ;)  You should measure it .
Bill

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2010, 11:24:10 AM »

I find Amazon to be invaluable in this cases. Searching for that title (as keywords) with both authors brought a couple of potential hits:

"American Machinist Grinding Book: Modern Machines and Appliances, Methods and Results" - Hardcover (1912) by Fred H. Colvin and Frank A. Stanley (I presume you meant Fred Colvin - can't find anything written by a Frank Colvin)

or

"Modern Toolmaking Methods - a Treatise on Precision Dividing and Locating Methods, Lapping, Making Forming Tools, Accurate Threading, Bench Lathe Practice, Tools for Precision Measurements, and General Toolmaking Practice" by Franklin D JONES (Hardcover - 1915)

2nd hand copies of both available in the UK, I've not tried the States.

The first sign you're getting old is that aspirin becomes your drug of choice.  The second sign is that your mind loses its grip -- that's why I stay away from terminals and airports...

Modern Toolmaking Methods is the book of which I was thinking.  I had the awesome experience of sitting between Frank Jones and LeRoy Grumman at an ASME dinner meeting a long time ago.  It was one of those, "I wish I could have recorded..." evenings.

Offline Majorstrain

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2010, 11:51:16 AM »
Quote
"Modern Toolmaking Methods - a Treatise on Precision Dividing and Locating Methods, Lapping, Making Forming Tools, Accurate Threading, Bench Lathe Practice, Tools for Precision Measurements, and General Toolmaking Practice" by Franklin D JONES (Hardcover - 1915)

It's available to download as a PDF scanned by Google Books.  Size is 11.4MB

Here is the direct link to the PDF
http://ia360625.us.archive.org/1/items/moderntoolmakin00jonegoog/moderntoolmakin00jonegoog.pdf

or the referencing page from open library.
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL6577345M/Modern_toolmaking_methods

Look under the READ heading in the top right of the page.

Cheers,
Phil

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2010, 12:08:13 PM »
 :bugeye: 40 quid for a hard copy

I only pay'd a few quid for a first addition 10 vol set  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:

 



I think Camden steam do a reprint


Rob

Offline AdeV

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2010, 12:29:45 PM »
Rob, that's a really nice looking set. Any chance you could scan them?  :lol:
Cheers!
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Offline Colh

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2010, 01:11:44 AM »
Thanks Rob and Jason for your comments. Lew for you thoughts and the book lead and Phil, Ade for the book search and the link.

I will first have a go at checking flatness of the pieces of granite.  If they are acceptable then nothing further to do except make a box with lid to house one of them, keep one as a spare and maybe gift the other to someone in need.  Will let you know how the measuring goes.

I downloaded Franklin D Jones' book and have some reading to do.  A quick scan shows a lot of information and is what I was looking for.

Ade

How is the QCTP going? Followed your thread and have one the same on the To Do list.

Col
Location - Geelong, Victoria, Aus

Offline AdeV

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2010, 07:24:56 AM »
Ade

How is the QCTP going? Followed your thread and have one the same on the To Do list.


Col,

I've not done any more to it since mounting it on the lathe, other than making a couple more tool holders. It's doing really well & has made it MUCH easier to change tooling - even if I am having to "multitask" some of the toolholders at present...

One day, I'll get around to making the handles for it.... at the moment, I just use the bolt & stud. It seems to work OK like that.

In certain circumstances, it does have a tendancy to be pushed around by the cutting forces, e.g. if using a form tool. It's OK if I really wind down on the clamp bolt - but the clamp is only an M10 stud; I plan (at some point) to increase that to something much more substantial - maybe 1/2" or more... but that means putting the old toolpost back on.... so I'll probably just wait until the stud breaks before I do anything about it...
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Colh

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2010, 02:58:52 AM »
Hi Guy

Checked the granite plates using the 300mm ruler from a Rabone CHesterman combination square set (set barely used, ruler still in orginal paper sleeve) as a straight edge and feeler gauges. 

Not looking good.  The plates appear to be concave in one axis probably due to the polishing machine being out of tram.  The worst had gap of around 4 thou in the middle of the 300mm rule with the best being about a thou.

After reading what Franklin D Jones had to say, I think I might have a go at making 3 500mm straight edges (to reach across the diagonal of the plates)by fixing all three together, milling one side then scraping A to B & C, B to C, etc as per Mr Jones' writing. 

I will then use one of the new straight edges to test the plates again to confirm original checks. 

I think I will have to lap the plates against one another, again as per Mr Jones.  Given the amount the plates are bowed I think I will start with the 240grit silicon carbide and then something finer to finish.  Given that most things used on the plate will be in the order of 10s of mm long then the course finish provided by the course silicon carbide is negated in the first instance.  A finer finish will be required if I want to use bearing blue to test flatness.

May be a while before I get the this as I have to tram my mill and then make one of Bogs' tramming tools (two new DTIs should arrive next week while I am away for work).  I am also half way through making a Harold Hall designed grinding rest.

Will continue the thread when progress is made.

Col

 
Location - Geelong, Victoria, Aus

Offline GerryB

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2011, 11:40:23 PM »
G.Day Cohl,
You probebly have attempted by now the Grinding together of your Granite Plates and found that it will not work.
I read a reply ferther up on getting in contact with an Astronomical Group who grind their own Mirrors.
But they do not want the surface to be flat but one surface that will endup as the Mirror is Parabola surface as this is what is required.
Two blank peices of thick glass are ground  together,one on top of the other.
The top glass results in the required mirror and the bottom  peice is discarded.
Due to the physics of the operation when two pieces are ground together you will not end up with nice flat surfaces.
I don't know of any way that you might obtain a decient surface other than getting it done commercialy.
Gerry

Offline John Hill

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2011, 02:01:30 AM »
G.Day Cohl,
You probebly have attempted by now the Grinding together of your Granite Plates and found that it will not work.
I read a reply ferther up on getting in contact with an Astronomical Group who grind their own Mirrors.
But they do not want the surface to be flat but one surface that will endup as the Mirror is Parabola surface as this is what is required.
Two blank peices of thick glass are ground  together,one on top of the other.
The top glass results in the required mirror and the bottom  peice is discarded.
Due to the physics of the operation when two pieces are ground together you will not end up with nice flat surfaces.
I don't know of any way that you might obtain a decient surface other than getting it done commercialy.
Gerry

Gerry, I believe you are right regarding grinding two surfaces together in that you will end up with a portion of a sphere, however if you grind three together giving equal time to each pairing you will wind up with three flat surfaces.


There are only two shapes of surface that will fit and slide in all directions, flat and sphere.
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Offline John Hill

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2011, 02:07:24 AM »
Hi Guy

Checked the granite plates using the 300mm ruler from a Rabone CHesterman combination square set (set barely used, ruler still in orginal paper sleeve) as a straight edge and feeler gauges. 

Not looking good.  The plates appear to be concave in one axis probably due to the polishing machine being out of tram.  The worst had gap of around 4 thou in the middle of the 300mm rule with the best being about a thou.

After reading what Franklin D Jones had to say, I think I might have a go at making 3 500mm straight edges (to reach across the diagonal of the plates)by fixing all three together, milling one side then scraping A to B & C, B to C, etc as per Mr Jones' writing. 

I will then use one of the new straight edges to test the plates again to confirm original checks. 

I think I will have to lap the plates against one another, again as per Mr Jones.  Given the amount the plates are bowed I think I will start with the 240grit silicon carbide and then something finer to finish.  Given that most things used on the plate will be in the order of 10s of mm long then the course finish provided by the course silicon carbide is negated in the first instance.  A finer finish will be required if I want to use bearing blue to test flatness.

May be a while before I get the this as I have to tram my mill and then make one of Bogs' tramming tools (two new DTIs should arrive next week while I am away for work).  I am also half way through making a Harold Hall designed grinding rest.

Will continue the thread when progress is made.

Col

 

Colh, if I understand correctly, if you lap those three together in pairs you will eventually have three flats.  If A fits B and B fits C and C fits A  they must be flat.
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Offline RichardShute

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2011, 05:46:04 AM »
You are right about the A-B, B-C, C-A aspect for checking either a straight edge or surface plate, but I'm not sure about the grinding / lapping scheme. Grinding two surfaces together like that is _one_ way to make a lens and that's certainly not what you want here. If you use a seperate lapping block with suitable compound to do the lapping that would be fine.

I should add I've never actually done the job myself so it's only a speculative comment.... so far. I have recently come by a battered camel back (for 99p! - it would have been rude to refuse) and fancy having a go at getting it back to spec.

Richard
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Offline John Hill

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2011, 01:58:15 PM »
Richard, if you lap two together you will almost certainly end up with lens shapes, one concave, one convex.  But if you cycle through three surfaces you will be lapping concave to concave and convex to convex as you go along and the end result will be flats.

If you have three surfaces which can be shown to match each other, and they slide in all directions, then you have flats.  They cannot be anything else.

For two surfaces, if they match and slide over each other you may have sections of a sphere or they may be flats.  But if you can do the same with three surfaces they must be flat!

I dont know about straight edges such as your camelback but I assume the home shop way of recovering that would be to first grind/lap your flats.
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Offline RichardShute

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Re: Making a granite surface plate
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2011, 03:01:23 PM »
Hi John,
yes, you are quite right, the typing got ahead of the thinking in my earlier comment, that and paranoia of possibly giving duff gen.

I have a second 'known to be pretty reasonable' straight edge, longer than the camelback, but I would need a third for the traditional scheme. I'll have to see what turns out easiest.

Cheers
Richard
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