Author Topic: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?  (Read 12153 times)

Offline JimM

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Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« on: January 01, 2011, 04:38:22 PM »
Hi all

After having a lathe and milling machine sitting in my garage for nearly 2 years, my New Years resolution is to actually start using them and get a bit productive.

First job is to get them set up properly and one of the things I'd like to do is lift the lathe a bit to make cleaning under it easier. I know Bogs used to have one of these lathes and I've seen a couple of posts (on other forums) about improvements etc he made to his so if you're out their Bogs can you give me some input on

1. On one thread (in the CNC forum) you suggest strengthening the bed, is this necessary on a 36" model? If it is recommended am I right in thinking that it's done with a sort of ladder frame made from box section that sits between the lathe feet and the bed ?

2. I know you used 'C' section channel to raise your lathe, the bottom of the C being bolted to the stand and the top bolted to the lathe feet. Is there any reason why I couldn't use box section for the riser and bolt straight through this. ie only using 1 bolt where you used 2 (I can't work out if 2 seperate bolts would be more stable than 1 single long one - or if it makes bugger all difference)

3. Are there any other mods which you would consider a 'must do' rather than a 'nice to have'

I know I've aimed this at Bogs but obviously if anyone else has any input then please do chip in  :thumbup:

Many Thanks

Jim

Location: Chessington, Surrey

Offline Pete.

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Re: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2011, 06:05:36 PM »
I had one of those as my first lathe and can well remember the fight to clear chips out from under it. In the end I took an old deep baking tray and cut it about to slide under the bed and partly under the headstock. It did a pretty good job of collecting the chips. I had planned to make the surface under the bed a sloping one by sacrificing the storage spece but got rid of it before that came about.

In all honesty, even though I was pleased as punch to have it as a lathe, I don't miss the thing at all once it was gone. I wouldn't have another unless it was virtually given away and then it would only be for parts. After I got rid of it for my current lathe I came to realise you could do so much more because you didn't spend half your life fiddling with the machine.

Offline Jonny

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Re: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2011, 06:13:18 PM »
Interesting one for all other lathes too, however you think the casting is rigid there will be a degree of flex more so with the asian builds and a certain German small machine builder, unreal. Beds can sag or even twist certainly looking at sketch below if 36" crs.
Harrison made a big song and dance over these issues on substantially beefier machines, painstakingly setup on stand at factory and shouldnt be disturbed.

Myford ML7 sit on alloy blocks on top of the tray then welded sheet stand, one bolt either side 4 in all.
Pretty much a must to bolt down tight on to something rigid between feet, metals are hard to stretch and would act as a form of brace.
If that dont cure could botch a jack up between the two feet :loco:

For reference and lifted from lathes.co.uk

Offline RichardShute

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Re: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2011, 06:34:04 PM »
Jim,
My father has a Halifax which is essentially the same machine, but it came with no base at all so we made one including a chip tray. What I would say is that what ever you do by way of re-mounting the bed/machine, allow yourself some means of adjusting the feet of the bed. If you were to use a single length of channel of a suitable size to do the job physically (say 5"x2-1/2" or so), it will be easily stiff enough to affect the alignment of the bed, particularly in twist. You need to be able to adjust the bed (perhaps with shims or maybe with jacking screws) and then lock/bolt it in place.

I'm a litle surprised to hear Pete say he was happy to be rid of his, but I suppose it depends on what he replaced it with. My Dad's is quite a pleasant machine to use. A QC gearbox would be a nice addition certainly and as with almost any machine you can find aspects where you perfer a different detail, but it's not bad for a basic machine. Personally, in your position, I'd be inclined to start having a play with it and get some fun and experience as that is most likely going to be how you will find out what you feel you most want to add/change/modify/replace. You may easily find it's bearable as it is and you have more fun 'making stuff' for now.

Richard
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2011, 03:19:03 AM »
Jim,

My Atlas 10F was a very prized posession, which I bought basically as a box of scrap after the owner ran the toolpost into the chuck, and I restored it myself, doing repairs as I was using the machine, and even used the lathe for making new parts. For the last few years of it's life with me, it was accurate to tenths if needed and carried out everything I asked of it. I would still be using it now if I hadn't needed a lathe with a larger swing.

What you mentioned was the most critical part of the lathe. I designed and had a friend knock up a stand with a ladder frame top out of 3" square thick wall tubing. It was that stand, specifically made to fit my 42" lathe that got around the 'supposedly' lack of rigidity in this girder design of bed, which usually came with a pair of cast iron legs that bolted under the four feet, basically turning it into a 'rubber' machine.

The u-section girder risers were in fact used for a dual purpose, the first was to raise the machine to a nice working height for me (when I could stand upright at the machine) and to allow me to have plenty of room underneath for cleaning out swarf. The second part was to do with levelling the machine. The risers were fixed to the ladder rack top of the stand, and the shimming for level was done between the top of the risers and the lathe feet. A very civilised way of doing things, rather than scrabbling around on the floor.

This shot clearly shows the risers, and how much clearance they gave under the main girder.



Now to a few of the mods.

After a few years use with the plain bearing head (wonderful surface finishes, but limited in it's top speed) I had the offer of a cheap Timken head from the US. I duly bought it and had the bearings reconditioned by a mate for nothing (they needed a second mortgage to replace) then finely tuned in to my existing parts. Little would you believe it, it seems the factory used a cold chisel to align the head to the bed, so I did the same, getting zero taper from about 4" out from the chuck. It took a couple of days, with great gnashing of teeth and sore fingers from continually taking in/out screws, but once it was done, the head never needed touching again in that department.

The rest of the mods were done basically to bring it up to modern day standards, as the lathe, as far as I could find out, was made in the late 30's.

I do somewhere have a few fuzzy photos showing most of the mods I did, and below is just one showing the 3 position saddle stop and what I considered a very worthwhile mod. If you look at the leadscrew reverse box (different to yours because this was a bronze cast replacement, yours will be Mazak), you will notice I have fitted a bronze support at the front where the gear sits. This made changing the gear silky smooth rather than the crash box it normal is, it prevents the leadscrew end and the gear being forced down and out of alignment.

If you want, I can root the piccies out for you, and let you have a looksee.


Bogs
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

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Offline Pete.

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Re: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2011, 08:19:28 AM »
In the photo you have a lever mechanism on the saddle where I had a chrome know for engaging the cross-feed. Is that something you made John? There were two things I didn't like about the cross-feed. One was that it was hard to disengage under load and the other was that it was geared very high in relation to the sliding feed.

Offline JimM

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Re: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2011, 11:16:20 AM »
Thanks for the responses guys

I was getting a bit confused on where the strengthening was positioned on the thread I read. I had it in my mind that it went between the bed and the feet but now understand it goes between the feet and the legs (if used). I've actually got my machine mounted on a wooden/angle frame bench so to use the strengtheners as suggested will actually compound my problem of cleaning under the bed!

The benchtop is made from 2" oak and looks very old so I'm hoping any movement in it will have settled out by now. It's a good size with cupboards underneath so I'd really like to keep it but if the improvement of a custom made stand really makes that much of a difference then it's something I'll have to look in to ?

However initially I think I may try option 2 in my original post as I have some box section to hand. Would there be any advantage to making 2 small square frames (one for each end of the bed) or is my best bet 4 separate pieces as Bogs did on his. I'm guessing the latter as if frames were better I'm sure Bogs would have used them  :thumbup:   Either way I should be able to use shims between the riser and feet to get everything level

Bogs - think I'll definitely have a go at making the lead screw support as I have noticed getting into and out of gear can be a bit hit and miss. Is it simply a shaped piece of material that screws to the underside of the gearbox ?


Thanks again

Jim

Location: Chessington, Surrey

Offline ieezitin

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Re: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2011, 11:37:28 AM »
Jim

I have the same lathe and the chips falling into that tight space is a PIA I done what the other guy suggested I place an old baking tray to catch them then I use the central vac installed in my shop to vacuum up the little blighters.
Advice here don’t be to hard or attempt  deep cuts at fast speeds these units are not made for it and you will surely snap crackle & pop something, I have shattered 3 half clasp nuts on mine in 5 years.

In fact I have a boat load of parts I have picked up along the way, and every month I attend machinery auctions looking for additions for my shop and I always come across Atlas lathes where littered with them here. If you need anything let me know  I would be glad to help and this goes to anyone else over in blighty who may need anything.

God Bless   Anthony.
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 02:09:09 PM »
Anthony,

Surely that is a fault with the operator not knowing the machines' limitations, not the machinery, especially breaking 3 sets of half nuts. I did make new ones for mine, but because they wore away, not broke. To me that smells of the wrong feed setting in the gear train, too fast.

I only ever broke one item on my machine, and I know that was my fault because I was cutting 2 TPI thru the gear train driven by the spindle, when I should have driven by the leadscrew. 4 TPI, as far as I can remember, is max when driving from the spindle.

I regularly parted off 3" brass bar with no problems at all, and normally took 1/4" roughing cuts in steel (1/2" off the diameter), so to me, my machine was plenty rigid enough for what I needed to do, and if I needed another lathe of that size, I would get one again.

But anyway, back to the topic heading.

I am trying to remember something from about 15 years back, and I think this is the rough design I used. The ladder top adds to the rigidity of the machine by helping to prevent twist and bending forces. I made a custom drip tray that sat between the lathe and stand top. When finished, the top had all weld joints dressed level and the whole lot was checked and adjusted for flatness. You only ever have to do this the once for your lathe, so it may as well be right.
I think the bottom part had two cross braces instead of the one I show.




Now a close up on the reverse selctor. I actually fitted the bronze bar (the same width as the slot in the gear), and set it up on the mill, picking up on the half moon that was already in the top piece and bored the bottom piece, so I had the correct sized full support hole. But the way you suggest, having just a bar sitting in the gear groove and giving support to the gear is a definite step in the right direction, and should improve things no end.




A very fuzzy picture here, but it shows enough of what I did. I turned up a pulley with a 1/4" full depth round bottomed groove in it (1/4" deep). This was the same diameter and central bore as the actuator knob, and they were swapped over. Then a little bracket and a bent handle were knocked up, pivotting towards the top of the handle, the bend was to allow the bottom part to not hit the apron so that the top half had enough movement to operate the linkage with a piece of 1/4" unhardened silver steel used in the knob groove to move the operating linkage in and out. It never failed to work and the crossfeed became a joy to use rather than a PITA. For a quickie guesstimation of sizes and lengths, I think I made the handle out of 1/2" stainless square bar.




I had a little trouble, when heavy cutting on back gear, the back gear would jump out of mesh. So if you look at the little ball on the end of the red line, it is pointing to a collar that stops the shafts moving side to side. I drilled a blind hole into it, I think 3/16", and fitted a ball and spring. Then on the small casting the little ball is also sitting on, I drilled a small detent into the face. Once all assembled, the back gear was put into its operating position and the collar then moved around the shaft until the ball went into the detent, the collar was then tightened up in that position. So whenever the back gear was used, the detent used to engage and stop the gear from coming out of mesh. Again, another little mod that worked perfectly.




This was just a mod because I was forever losing the tightening spanner for this nut. I got a ratchet spanner, machined up the top of the nut to fit it, and basically made it a fixture to the nut. Cut the unwanted end off and put a bit of heatshrink on it to stop pain when in white knuckle mode. A quick flick of the lever and it was ready to undo or do up. Nuff said.

I did do another mod to the tailstock, just before I sold the lathe, and it can be found here.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=2114.0




Now this is a collection of bits around the saddle and apron. Top to bottom.

Fitted a 100 sized QCTP. This required the bottom of the toolpost turning so that it could fit on the limited size offered by the topslide, I also had to remove a bit of the casting top, just so that I didn't take too much off the toolpost.
Next comes all singing all dancing resettable dials, courtesy of Messrs Myford and their ML7 lathe. BTW, the Atlas 10" is very similar to the ML7, just 50% larger. I was at a show, and bought two of the dials for 17 squid each, and by tapping out the centre to Atlas size, they were fairly easily fitted, but did require new index plates making and fitting. I also did the anti backlash thrust washer jobbie on the topslide and cross slide at the same time. Much better than the tiny little bits that are on there as standard.
Then comes the saddle clamp handle, I don't think I need to go into details, only to say that I got a few brand new parts from a dealer when I made up a few extras of the underneath clamp plates. They are unobtainable new in real life, and he was willing to do a fair exchange.
Next comes the major bit that you can't see. The half nuts and holder are made from Mazak, and under normal conditions, I would expect a life of about two years out of them. They were over 20 squid for a new set, and very badly cast. By the time you got them to fit, they wobbled all over the place. So I made a copy of them out of a piece of gauge plate and some lumps of brass. I also fitted a basic gib set to them, so that play could be eliminated as they wore. I checked them after about 3 years use, and nothing needed doing and showed very little signs of wear. When I sold the machine, I gave the chappie two spare blocks I had made with the screw thread cut thru them, all he had to do was cut them in half, mill a little, and he would be ready for another long trouble free machining spell.




I had a stage in my workshop where I was repairing all sorts of odd things with weird threads. So I marked up the top of my drop in indicator with 16 markings, this helped me a lot during my single point screwcutting phase.



One thing I need to mention was the fitting of a reversible 1/2 HP motor and control box. This is a must if you are to do any metric screwcutting on this lathe.

I think that fitting the smaller motor really helped keep the machine from being damaged. If it didn't like what I was doing, it would slow down or stall before any mechanical damage came to it.

Over the years, I got to know it inside out and back to front, so very rarely would I ask it to do more than I knew what it was capable of, but it did everything I required at that time.
Loads of lube everywhere, and a clean up every now and again was all it required, and it became one of my most loved and accurate machines I ever owned, up until I got my new one sorted. Now that is a totally different story.

Bogs
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

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Offline Pete.

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Re: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 03:27:35 PM »
Oh yeah you just reminded me of other things I hated about mine.

Jumping out of back-gear. I used a small bungee cord on the handle to hold it in.

Hand-winding it back when cutting metric. I never knew it at the time but my motor WAS reversible. Threading metric was the thing that made me determined to be rid of it for a metric machine.

Fiddly lock for the tailstock.

It seems the difference here is that I hated my machine for it's faults whereas you identified them and did something about them. I think I already said this was my first machine tool, and being such a novice I hadn't got into the mindset of actually making parts and changing the operation. I excpect if I had seen what you have done I would have copied some of your stuff on my own lathe and made my introduction a much more pleasurable experience.

I still wouldn't swap it for my Denford Viceroy though :)


Offline JimM

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Re: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2011, 02:21:42 PM »
Hi Bogs

Thanks for all the great info and pics, I think some of those mods will definitely end up on my machine. I already have it fitted with a 1/2 hp reversible motor so that's one I can cross off the list already  :thumbup:

Cheers

Jim
Location: Chessington, Surrey

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Atlas 10F Improvements - One for Bogs?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2011, 11:50:25 PM »
Pete,

You will never ever find your completely perfect machine, you might think it is, but if you really study it, you will indefinitely find some niggle with it.
It is the same with my new metric machine, even cutting metric threads with the drop in dial was a PITA, with gear swaps required on the drop in dial to cater for the different pitches. Armed with my swing up threading tool, I now do all my screwcutting with the leadscrew permanently engaged, both metric and imperial, and it is an absolute joy.
The manufacturers make machines to cater for the majority of users at the time of manufacture, and in the case of the Atlas, I identified the bits that niggled me, and as you said, I put them right, or updated the parts that weren't available on this type of machine at the time of it's build, namely resettable dials and QCTP.
As times change, so do the machines, purely to cater for what is required at the time. I am sure that my new machine, sometime in it's future, will be classed as outdated, and someone will do the same as I did with the Atlas. Modded it to get it right for them.

Jim,

Glad to be of assistance, and I hope you will get as much enjoyment out of the Atlas as I did with mine.

With these older machines, nothing is dead until it goes into the melting pot. Until that time, they are defintiely worth a bit of work to attempt to rescue them. But you do have to realise that there comes a point that it isn't a viable monetary proposition to keep them alive, unless of course it is purely for nostalgia.

Both of the machines I rescued from the melting pot, the Myford before and then the Atlas, are still in use today, with very happy owners. They also both payed me back, many times over, on the money I invested in them. So in reality, all they ever cost me was a little of my time and effort.


Bogs
If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it.

Location - Crewe, Cheshire

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