Author Topic: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build  (Read 63956 times)

Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2011, 02:24:32 PM »
Dave, I think that was the way it was done on my Escort RS Turbo. Apparently you could freeze the pin to reassemble too but when I rebuilt the engine I just got someone to press them in!

Doug, that is fantastic, another good example of the ignition I've been wondering about for so long. Well done  :bow: Can't wait to see more

You certainly don't mess around either!

Nick

Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2011, 04:27:15 PM »
Thanks for all the kind words, guys, I really love doing this, so the time spent pays big dividends in my sanity column.

The motor is running really good and smooth now, I will have some good vids and pic tonight. Hopefully the lighters will be in today's mail and I can get started on that this weekend.

More to come...

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #77 on: March 05, 2011, 12:16:29 AM »
Well, I spent a few minutes tweaking the motor today.  No new parts, just a timing wheel made from a 360 deg protractor.

Here are some videos:

The Engine running about 2500 RPM.  Being as there is no real throttle to control RPM, you control it through mixture.  Richer runs cooler and slower, lean runs hotter and faster.  One issue with the vapor carb is that this is a moving target as the powerful hydrocarbons vaporize first and so you have to add a ton of air, then what is left is less volatile and you have to adjust it with less air bypass to enrich the mixture.



I used a smaller and lighter flywheel (5 inches) than the plans called for because this is about all my 7x12 can turn.  Maybe when the cam timing is better and the ignition more reliable, I can get it slower, but this is about it for now.



The old timing light I have pops ghost images, but the timing is pretty close to 10 degrees BTDC. I did not have the timing wheel when I shot this, so I will use it when I fine tune the ignition timing.



After 20 minutes and 2 tanks of Coleman fuel with a few drops of Marvel Mystery Oil, the cylinder only got up to 190 degrees and the head only up to 145.  I do not see it being run much harder than this, so that is about my benchmark for temp.  Then she ran out of gas....



The coil was mounted with the old bracket from when I had the coil mounted fixed to the Webster base.  If it becomes a permanent part, I will make a more elegant mounting system.  Timing is changed by rotating the position of the flywheel and the new 1/4-20 setscrews hold it very well.  Right now it HAS to be clamped tight to the table because the flywheel is way out of balance from the addition of the magnets.  I might epoxy some washers 180 degrees to balance it.



The Vapor tank is a transplant from the Webster.  It ran good, so I just wanted as few variables as possible to get it running smooth.  The tank for this engine will be made when my rotary table arrives.



The intake valve seem to be floating a bit causing it to stay open and blow fuel out of the tank.  I later deduced was exhaust timing closing too early and creating pressure in the cylinder, then the intake opened and the pressure went into the tank, spewing fuel.  But, I had some stronger springs, so I put them on just to make sure.  The other ones seemed a bit week.



The Marvel mystery oil does not burn so it just collects in the cylinder.  This is a good thing.  Once it is broken in I will reduce the mixture as even now it does not smoke when running.  The smoke you see in the videos is from 3and1 oil used to lube the valves and cams.



There is a little burnt oil and carbon on the exhaust side as to be expected when it is so oil rich.  This is after about an hour of running and 10 tanks.



Still on the fence when it comes to the piezo ignition.  I might see if I can tuck this coil in under the cam in a tasteful way.  I do not know if it will deliver a reliable spark at cam RPM, so it might have to stay on the flywheel.  Maybe if I paint the lamination silver or something...

More to come...

« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 01:07:23 AM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #78 on: March 05, 2011, 03:24:34 AM »
Great analysis Doug, love it. It runs so well now, sounds like much larger stationary engines.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2011, 10:19:33 AM »
From the way it runs, Doug, I'd think about making an actual carburetor with fixed jets and actual fuel control, so as to get the full range of rpms.  You might inset the magnets into the flywheel, rather than leave them outside, and thus need less work to balance it out.  The key is the magnets switching the flux precisely at the same time each time, and that is controlled by their placement, which being fixed, means it should be possible to put a key in the flywheel once the timing is perfected.  You definitely need to have valve overlap if you're going to run it at any significant speed, to avoid the pressure build up you speak of.  I've got a copy of Jerry Howell's carburetor he designed for small engines, as part of my radial engine plans, and his carburetor will give good control and has an idle jet and all, basically a real and complete carburetor, and not too complicated. :bugeye: you've definitely got her down to just working out the last little bugs, fine job, all the way. :headbang: cheers, Jack

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #80 on: March 05, 2011, 12:13:41 PM »
From the way it runs, Doug, I'd think about making an actual carburetor with fixed jets and actual fuel control, so as to get the full range of rpms.  You might inset the magnets into the flywheel, rather than leave them outside, and thus need less work to balance it out.  The key is the magnets switching the flux precisely at the same time each time, and that is controlled by their placement, which being fixed, means it should be possible to put a key in the flywheel once the timing is perfected.  You definitely need to have valve overlap if you're going to run it at any significant speed, to avoid the pressure build up you speak of.  I've got a copy of Jerry Howell's carburetor he designed for small engines, as part of my radial engine plans, and his carburetor will give good control and has an idle jet and all, basically a real and complete carburetor, and not too complicated. :bugeye: you've definitely got her down to just working out the last little bugs, fine job, all the way. :headbang: cheers, Jack

Thanks for the suggestions....  I have some smaller magnets that will fit into the flywheel by just drilling some holes, so if I go that route with the ignition coil.  I do not have a method for broaching the keyway right now, though I could do a piece of round stock and drill a hole between the shaft and the flywheel just like a square key would be cut.

I would love to take a look at those carb drawings to see if it would be a good fit.  Can you send a copy to dbvandy@gmail.com?

I will keep updating the build as changes are made.

More to come...

Doug   
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline sorveltaja

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #81 on: March 05, 2011, 01:09:58 PM »
Dbvandy, grats for getting the engine to run :beer:.

What comes to carburetor, as a shortcut, why not to try commercial one, as Webster's designer suggested on his engine.

But anyways, it would be worth to make a homebrewn test carburetor, to see, what the engine likes. Even if it is a shot in the dark.

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #82 on: March 05, 2011, 03:01:46 PM »
I have two OS carbs from my old RC days.  I had them on the webster, but they seemed finicky and hard to adjust.  maybe they will work better on the Otto... I will try tonight...
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 11:39:29 AM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #83 on: March 05, 2011, 07:06:26 PM »
FYI... 1/4inch clear vinyl tubing melts at exactly 222 degrees F....

That is all....

« Last Edit: March 05, 2011, 11:42:38 PM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #84 on: March 05, 2011, 11:58:21 PM »
Well...  I had her up to 5600 RPM today running really smooth...  Idles about 800...

I tried to use a carb off an RC car with about the same results as the webster... bad...

I whipped up a quick adapter for the 10mm carb



The carb installed...  it ran, but either idled or sputtered to 2000 RPM then died.  after about throwing it across the room in frustration, I put the vapor carb back on.  I love that thing...



I did play around a bit and ran the engine on propane and some other stuff...  maybe I will make a demand valve and run it off a bottle...



This week I plan to finalize some things...  glass vapor tank, and ignition (coil or piezo)

More to come...

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Rob.Wilson

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2011, 03:13:37 AM »
Hi Doug 


Just read the thread from the start  :bugeye:  ,,,, great stuff  :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: ,, the engine runs well on gas  :med:


Rob

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #86 on: March 06, 2011, 09:00:56 AM »
Hi Doug 


Just read the thread from the start  :bugeye:  ,,,, great stuff  :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: ,, the engine runs well on gas  :med:


Rob

Thanks, Rob...  now comes the fun part where I get to play with it until it is exactly the way I want it.  I will start work on my glass vapor tank on Monday, should work pretty good now that I understand the physics behind it...

AND...  I am starting to dream up my own design now...  a V4, all open...  I like to see the parts spinning around.

Doug
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #87 on: March 09, 2011, 01:05:39 AM »
Well, I was able to spend a little time on the Otto this afternoon and nailed down the vapor tank.  It works excellent and looks good to boot!

I roughed out the sides and then turned the top portion on the lathe.  It serves no real purpose to be round, I just thought it would look better.



The insets were milled with my new rotary table.  There is an o-ring that goes between the sides and the 1.75 od glass.



The throttle/air mixture is controlled with a socket head that screws down and covers the air bypass hole.  The other side is the filler.



The Vapor tank finished.  The glass was a bud vase and has a blue tint.







The engine running with the new tank and magnets set into the flywheel for balance.  The motor now has full control of the idle with the mixture and it will rev from 800 RPM to 3500 pretty quickly.



You can control the Revs with your finger covering the air bypass hole.  With it open, it is too lean so it slows to an idle.  With your finger over it, the mixture enriches and she speeds up.



Now to make a permanent mount of the coil and then pull it all apart and polish it all pretty.

More to come...

Doug
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 01:22:13 AM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline NickG

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #88 on: March 09, 2011, 03:02:10 AM »
Really nice Doug, a pretty tank / carb. That vapour carb is a cracking innovation by Jan considering so many people struggle with carburettors he has thought of an easy way to get around the problem that appears reliable.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

lordedmond

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #89 on: March 09, 2011, 03:58:13 AM »
the springs look like the are not square at the bottom end , just clipped off , that may be the cause of the deformation



BTW very good build post, well documented , its something I do not seem to be able to do , I build OK ( with plenty of tip from this site ) but I am poor at documenting it ( dyslexia  does not help ) takes me 15 min to type this line

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #90 on: March 09, 2011, 09:35:16 AM »

Yeah, Doug, this looks really great!

Question about the springs that were to weak...  Did they permanently compress / deform after running, or was this their state all along?



These were some stock springs out of a kit.  The first ones were probably fine, it turned out to be timing between the exhaust and intake cams, I did not have enough overlap.  The second set was a bit long, so I had to lop off a 1/4 inch (I will fix the bottom seat of the spring when I do the polish).  The only issue with the weaker springs is that they might float at about 3000 RPM, but I don't plan on having the engine running that fast very often.

Nick,  The vapor carb if definitely the way to go.  It is super simple to make and very forgiving with dimensions.  This new one I just guessed at the hole sizes and what felt good, worked good.  I like the fact that you can see the fuel through the glass as it makes it easier to explain what is going on to gear head friends that have never seen one (like me until 2 months ago).

I will post some more pics when I get her all polished and rounded.

More to come...

Doug

"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #91 on: March 12, 2011, 12:36:09 AM »
well...  I think I am now done with the Otto and will start spending some time designing the V4.

Here is a pic of all the pieces that make up the engine...  I did not realize how many bolts were in this thing... that's a lot of 6-32 tapping!  The uprights are cut out and lightened.  You can see the bearing in the middle upright, that is where the fan goes.  The right upright has two holes to mount the coil.  I also added some extra holes in the bottom plate to make it easier to get to the cap screws in the top plate from underneath the engine with the allen wrench.  



It is all back together now and the final touches have been done to the legs and spacers.  I built the fan today but it kinda bugs me...  it makes some whinny noise (like a fan will I guess...)  but it is functional and I will upload some vids tomorrow.

More to come...

Doug
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 11:58:18 AM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #92 on: March 12, 2011, 11:51:50 AM »
Well....  I am officially done with the Otto, now it will be a discussion piece on my mantle.  The number one question I get it is: "What do you do with it?". To which I respond: "Show it to you..."  

She runs really well; idles at about 900 steady and revs to 3500 with the softer springs installed.  
The vapor tank performs wonderfully and the engine will run for 45 minutes on one tank at 1500 RPM.
Maximum temperature is 222 F at full throttle for about 2 minutes, but does not seem to rise much after that.
The Vitron o-ring seals well and with a little squirt of 3-in-1 oil in the intake valve every 5-10 minutes, stays lubed.
Ignition coil with strong neodymium magnets installed on the flywheel produces a strong spark down to about 600 RPM.
Fan does circulate air well, but probably is not needed for this motor.







Here is a little video of the cooling fan.  It is powered by an o-ring on the idler pulley.



Thanks for all the kind words and advice during this build, it has been very rewarding to construct and complete.

That is all....

Doug
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 05:48:57 PM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline sorveltaja

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #93 on: March 12, 2011, 12:31:29 PM »
Nicely done engine you got there, Doug :ddb:.

What comes to that "What do you do with it?" question, answer could be: "I use it to ride for shopping".

Offline saw

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #94 on: March 12, 2011, 01:30:54 PM »
I will only say   :bow: :bow: :bow:
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #95 on: March 12, 2011, 03:09:43 PM »
Very nice build Doug.  :thumbup:

Sure is shiny.  :clap:

Bernd
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #96 on: March 12, 2011, 04:20:23 PM »
I like shiny...

Thanks for the comments!

Here's a little video of the Otto finished and running:



That is all....

Doug
« Last Edit: March 12, 2011, 04:26:41 PM by dbvandy »
"if you can pay someone to do it, then you can do it... just might cost more and take longer."  ~Grandpa Vanderbilt

Offline saw

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #97 on: March 12, 2011, 04:48:27 PM »
Greate thanks for showing  :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Offline j45on

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #98 on: March 12, 2011, 05:06:16 PM »
Great job  :bow:
I'm looking forward to your V4  :nrocks:
Jason

Offline Bernd

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Re: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build
« Reply #99 on: March 12, 2011, 07:36:06 PM »
Man, I had to put on my sun glasses to watch that. Great job.  :thumbup:

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds