Fixing Darren's lathe

[SPiN Racing]

Very very nice!

Quite impressive!

(Adds research on a side cutter to the list of "just might need it some day" tooling.)


Watching you measure this reminds me of how I have to measure a Rotor housing on a rotary.
Same basic thing I spose.
THe rotor housing is hourglass shaped (sorta) and it is around 3" thick on one variant of the engines.
The engine is assembled like a dagwood sandwich with long tension bolts.
Thing is.. the aluminum housings that are sandwitched between cast iron.. can compress over time.
Sooo They need measured all around the circumfrence, to make sure thy are within the factory race tolerances.  There can be no more than .0023" of variance between measure points.
Junk housing if its out of tolerence. Usually if out of tolerence the chrome liner is worn through on the inside.

[bogstandard]

Spin,

A mic and a DTI can become your super efficient eyes and fingers if used correctly. They can show you the most minute detail of a part that just cannot be detected by normal senses, and they very rarely make a mistake.

A side and face cutter is one of those tools that I use to get me out of a scrape now and again. But not essential.

There are other ways I could have used to obtain the same effect. A quickie knock up, upside down flycutter would achieve the same results. You could use a normal flycutter if you can run your machine in reverse.

It is called cat skinning. Many ways of doing the same job.

Bogs

[Darren]

John that is looking real good I have to say...

You did all that with a slitting saw  learn something new every day, thankfully. Hard bit is hanging on to all these new learnt titbits.

I've had that lathe for over two years, so hopefully the casting has settled somewhat in that time.
Is two years enough? And does breaking the skin cause further stress releases?

Anyways, every time you post further teasers of progress cast a ray of wonder and excitement. It will be interesting how my perception of the machine will alter after abusing using it again
 

[Bernd]

John,

That's kind of what I thought you had done, but wasn't sure.

The Grizzly has the same kind of bed as what your working on. I'm sure it has some of the same problems. I've had this lathe for almost ten years. I'm sure it's not up to speck.

I've got some interesting things I liked to try to do with this lathe, but that would be  .

Bernd

[bogstandard]

Darren,

It was a side and face cutter, slightly different to a normal slitting saw. A slitting saw cuts on the circumerence edge, a side and face is as it says. I used the side cutting bit to carry out the machining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_cutter

Without knowing what the casting has gone thru during it's life, it is difficult to say whether machining it will cause any changes. You can only hope and assume what will happen. Even some normal materials have wierd reactions when you take the outer skin off. Gauge plate is renowned for bending like a banana if you just machine one side.

I am hoping, by the time I have finished doing all sorts of bits and adjustments to this little treasure, it will act in a completely different way to what you are used to.

Bernd,

Just get your mic and go along the bed as I did initially, no need to strip it down, just in places you can get to. That will show you straight away whether you have the same sort of problems.

Even though these lathes are fairly cheap to buy, it looks like that with a little bit of work, they can be made to be worth their weight in gold.

Bogs

[Darren]

Sorry John, I was trying to invoke some humor, not my strong point as I'm a tad too dark and dry with it.....or so I'm told   

[bogstandard]

Just me Darren, trying to get a bit more info across.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was galloping along on a racehorse with this post, then it dropped dead under me.

So I am having to take a couple of days off while I find myself a new set of legs to climb on. Don't worry, the post will soon be up and running again.

So for times like this, I have prepared a little article for you to ponder over. Some of you will have seen this before, but a lot of you will have not.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I'm waiting to get onto the next stage, here is a little statement.

MACHINING IS ONLY A STATE OF MIND.

That really means, if you think it can't be done, then you will never be able to do it.

I am very lucky, and now have a very respectable workshop built up. But that isn't the reason I can machine to a fairly good standard. You have no idea what sort of crappy machines I have had over the years, and I have always been able to achieve what I wanted to do.
 
Machinery doesn't make a good machinist. You can go out and buy the most expensive bits of kit on the market, but if you don't have the right state of mind, for as long as you have a hole in your a**e, you will never achieve your full potential with your machinery.

Never, ever, be jealous of what other people have. It is a fact of life that a lot of members will never be able to afford everything they really want, so just accept what you have, and use it to it's full potential. DO NOT DROOL over other peoples possessions, especially if you are in your workshop, it tends to make your machines go rusty.

If you can get the job safely mounted on your machine, and have clearance to swing the job or cutter, then you should be able to do a good job of machining it. Never think a job is impossible until you have given it a real good dose of looking at, maybe a few times, from different angles. I can spend hours just looking for a way to achieve something. It is amazing what methods the mind can come up with when it is pushed to the limits.

Reading about it is good, thinking about it is exceptional.

I always use this as an easy example.

My old workshop setup was a 1938 Atlas 10F lathe, restored over the years by myself, and a very early small mill/drill that really should have been looked after a lot better, but again, I upgraded it a little.

So this chappie comes to me and says 'I got a bike frame that I want modding, can you do it'. I told him to bring it along and I would have a looksee. He dragged out of the back of his van what looked to me like a full sized scaffold tower, it was massive. I later found out that he had taken it to a few places before he ended up at my door, they had laughed him out of their shops.

This would be a great swapsie job, I mod the frame, he landscapes my front garden. So out comes the tape measure, a quick call to my mate, and in no time this hunk of steel was on the mill and job done.

I never did get the front garden done, he did a runner. You win some, you lose some. But I did get my own back after a fashion. I had taken some rather critical engine plates and bits off the frame to lighten it up, put them on a shelf and forgot to give them to him when he took the frame away, and with him not coming back, they ended up in my recycle bin, and are now long gone, made into little engines.

On first sight would you have attempted this?



This shot is a bit deceiving, Uncle Bogs was a bit fitter then. The frame was for a full blown chopper, and was almost 7ft long. We dragged the mill into a position where we could use the end of the workbench as an extra support, as the weight of the frame was trying to tip the mill over. The head of the mill was teetering on falling off the top of the column, with 1/4" clearance under the 20mm cutter (fitted later, after this shot was taken). But we did the job, and fairly safely to boot.

Think positive, and never give up on a job unless you can prove it can't be done on your equipment.

Bogs

[CrewCab]

As ever, top class work and a great thread ............... thanks John, keep it coming 

CC

[rleete]

I was galloping along on a racehorse with this post, then it dropped dead under me.

Time to go on a diet, then?

On first sight would you have attempted this?

Not with that crazy looking bastard standing there!   



Nice writeup, looking forward to more.

[bogstandard]

Thanks Dave, and welcome home. Hope you are well.

Time to go on a diet, then

Tried it, but didn't enjoy it.
Life wouldn't be worth living without my daily fix of jammy doughnuts, caffiene and nicotine. No matter how bad they are for me. You only have one go at it, so enjoy it while you can. Sh*tting yourself thin and running everywhere just isn't my vision of a happy life. I have done enough and seen enough to last me two lifetimes, so anything from this minute on is a bonus. I am content.

Not with that crazy looking ba**ard standing there

Might look crazy, and can be a real ba**ard at times, but I think you would find that what you see is not what you get. That standing there, is the softest, help anybody, cuddliest teddy bear you would ever meet. At least that's what Bandit says, and he has never lied to me yet.

Bogs

[Bernd]

As always a classic bit of information Bogs.

I have to agree 100 percent with what you said. It's not the machine but the operator.

I got the same about moving the Bridgeport into the basement. "You did that by yourself  ".

As you said, all it takes is sitting there and studing it. I looked at the machine and figured if one guy can put this together at the factory, then one guy can take it apart and move those parts into the basement. And I did it with out injury to machine or me.

I think one problem people have today is that they are "impatient".

Bernd

[SPiN Racing]

Completely agree with all of the above statements.

I made all my initial car parts, engine mounts, dual thermostat housing, the works... all from a hand file, hacksaw, handheld belt sander, and a electric hand drill.

At this point.. I keep having to re-adjust my mind, and way of thinking because I have the tools to do things.. more efficiently. If not better.

Oh and the bridgeport in the basement. I think I read about that on a different website late one night..

My youngest son and I moved the Series 1 Clone into the garage by ourselves with only a Engine hoist. Man that was scary/dumb. But in the end we had moved it to the end of the trailer, and off onto some boards that smashed to match the contours of the mill base, and ground underneath. Then after realising it wouldnt fit inside whole, the head was removed, and we got the two parts in, and re-assembled. 7 hours for the first part, and 2 more to put it back together.

I enjoy when the more cynical automotive friends of mine poo poo an idea as being impossible before they realise I had already done it, and it was complete. Now they dont nay say so fast. 


Hope your health smooths out Bogs. Dont know the story, but having various family with health issues. Its a b**ch having to battle the variety of things that can effect us.

[bogstandard]

Now, after a bit of a rest after the contract job, I am in a position where I can pick up the bent lathe project.

As I said on the last posting bit about it, I am going to fit tapered gibs (jibs) to the saddle, and if all goes well, this will turn it into a very accurate little machine (at least it will be better than it was previously).

I have decided to go with the setup from the mini lathe site, purely because the chap seemed to know a bit more about metals and their weaknesses. The one described in MEW was saying to make the gib strip holders out of aluminium, in my opinion, not the right material.

So anyway, away we go. But please remember, this is how I do things, and for the purists, please stop reading now.

As always, I like to see just what I am working with, and this was no exception. If I had made the gib holders to the plans, I think I would have had to remake them, as they just wouldn't have fitted. These machines were manufactured by everyone and his dog, so I expected that they wouldn't all be the same, so out came the trusty digivern, my notepad, a couple of bolts and a parallel.

This pic shows the upside down saddle, with the gib strips removed, next to the plans I downloaded. Thank you Rick Kruger for making them available.

http://warhammer.mcc.virginia.edu/ty/7x10/vault/Lathes/7x10-7x12-Projects/TaperedSaddleGibs/

If you read the article, notice the last bit, it seems that Rick is having a bit of a problem with what I fixed in the first bit of this article.

The holes for the gib mounting bolts had large volcano sticky up bits around them, so I went to work so that I could measure everything.




The first thing I did was to countersink all the bolt holes and have a bit of a clean up, this will allow everything to be nipped up nice and tight.
The other thing I did was to get out the trusty marker, think about how it was going to be measured, and because it was upside down, I marked everything up so I wouldn't get confused (a very easy thing for me nowadays). The lines on the end are to show the datum ends I will be working with.




I am now just going to take some measurements, and explain a little later.
This first one is the length of the saddle. It was within a couple of thou between front and back, so I used this reading for both.




Then a couple of bolts were screwed into the first pair of holes, and the measurement noted down. This is a bit of a rough a**sed method, but it will do for this job, as the holdown bolts are a fair amount undersized, and by the time I have drilled clearance holes, there will be plenty to play with. As long as they are within a couple of thou, all will be well with the world. I did the same measurement on the other three pairs of holes and they were noted down.




This next one shows how I measured from the datum face to the first hole. I am lucky that I have a pair of magnetic parallels, but you can use almost anything to allow you to measure accurately in a horizontal fashion.




To use the data I have obtained, I now need a little more information.
This is the measurement of the mag para (bar).




This is the diameter of the bolts I used (the correct thead for the holes by the way).




So all the data is brought together and worked out using easy equations. These types of equations can be used in all sorts of situations where you need to find centre and edge points.
Notice the difference between the hole pitches. I would have had to use really large oversized holes to get them all to line up if I had used the original plan dimensions as marked.
It states on the plans that you should really use the dimensions from your measurements.
So why put dimensions on the plan?




All my data is then used to make a corrected drawing for me to work to. 



So now I have a definite, accurate (near enough) and easy to read plan for me to continue.

So the next post should be where I have raided my recycle boxes to get some material to do the job, got my mill and vice trued up and ready to be used, and started to think about how I am going to carry out the job. 

So out with the notepad again and do a machining routine.


John

[Divided he ad]

I'm going to be watching the next bit carefully.... You never know some of this could make my 9x20 machine better..... It possibly came from the same factory?!   



Good job your writing on the bottom of that John.... It helps with the photo's as well as your head!!     




Ralph.

[NickG]

Bogs,

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting, my Harrison had tapered gibs on the saddle and cross slide (not top though) and have to say you can adjust it superbly.

Nick

[Darren]

Oh yes, my lack of response should not be taken negatively.

Eyes wide open here taking it all in. Really looking forward to using this machine again. Judging by what I've just purchased I think I'm going to be needing it !!

 

[bogstandard]

No worries Darren,

This post isn't really aimed at anyone. If it just helps one other person to fix their lathe, it will all be worth it.

John

[Darren]

Well if it helps, I picked up one good tip in the last write-up and at the same time realised how messy I am in my slap dash way....

[bogstandard]

Darren,

Don't go whipping yourself, you had no way of knowing how far out this machine was going to be. Also this exercise is getting me moving my a**e again, so we are killing two birds with one stone.

Just a little bit more before we get to machining in earnest.

I did a couple more measurements before going any further, and this confirmed that the actual lathe has been made freehand, with no relationship between any measurement. Nothing is in a straight line, the bolt holes vary by about 0.020" on their distance from the machined casting edges. So I have marked up the plans with a guesstimation of something near, and hope that the hole allowances will allow for a good fit. No wonder Darren was having problems setting it up.






So I now needed to get some material to do the job. I raided both my stash boxes and recycle bins and found a couple of 1" diameter pieces of an old machine roller and some lengths of hex aluminium bronze. I didn't have enough of any other size to do the job, but with a bit of work these will do fine. In fact the alibronze for the gib strips was my first choice anyway. I have no qualms about turning one shape into another. I just use what is available and make it fit the job.




I tried using them like this to see if it would save me some work, but no luck, they kept falling off when I turned it the right way up.




So out came my solid carbide shifter and I started to hack metal off. But it was going too slow.




So then I wacked the feed and speed up, it came off a lot faster. Don't try this with normal tooling by the way, it will cost you a fortune in new bits. After this face I turned on the flood coolant and went a bit faster. I have no idea what the material is, only to say that it is a bit of tough stuff.




So this is the first squarish bit, the other one was done the same way. They are slightly oversized, and will be skimmed up with a flycutter so that they will look a little more presentable.




The next part will be to get the gib strips out of the hex, then I will start to plan out the easiest way to get the tapered faces. Methinks a bit of superglue will come into play on that one. One thing I am not going to do, is waste time making the jigplate that they show on the plans.

Bogs

[Divided he ad]

Cool..... Sparks     


Looks like you are having fun with your mill John 


Looking forward to seeing how you do with the alibronze.... That's the same stuff I made a torch out of... Tough to thread!!  Still did it though



Next bit tomorrow? 


 




Ralph.

[NickG]

  Haha, didn't think they'd work without any machining Bogs, next time check with me first, I could save you trying to catch all those bits of metal rolling around the floor!

 

[bogstandard]

Looking forward to seeing how you do with the alibronze....

Oh ye of little faith.

The alibronze machined up like soft butter.




Unlike the steel. I said it was tough, made a nice flat on my flycutter in about 1" of cutting.
So I pursuaded it to behave itself with another dose of carbide and some coolant.





Basic blanks cut up, ready for the next stage - ALMOST




I popped the steel blanks onto the upturned crosslide, and noticed that the faces on the casting weren't flat, or even horizontal. One step forwards two back.
So out came the measuring gizmos again and a quick check revealed that they were way out, but everything else was spot on. These measurements were all taken from the top of the dovetail on the crosslide.
This really does prove that this lathe was made with a hammer and chisel and a hand drill.




I used my paintpen to highlight the problem and you can see how this one angles downwards. The other one was the same, but not as bad.
So everything has to stop until it is put right.




I could easily have done this levelling job on the mill, but I decided to use the surface grinder, less setup and cleanup time.
Dress the wheel, drop job onto mag chuck and flip the handle - set up.




This is after 8 thou removal, the back one has already cleaned up, but the front still has a long way to go. This shot shows just how far out and uneven this face was. It took another 7 thou to clean it up.
Don't be alarmed by the metal burn marks, this wheel was too soft for the job, it is the one I use for HSS and carbide tooling. A very fine cut took most of it off.




Both cleaned up.




The parts now sit nicely and squarely on the newly machined faces.



So after this little detour, I am now back on track.

I am really enjoying fixing this little sick machine, it is nice to get back into the foray after such a long layoff.

By the time I am finished with it, it should run like a Swiss watch.

Bogs.

[Darren]

Good grief John....

I've always struggled with this little lathe and frequented a couple of "other" forums with lots of "y's" etc.
I got told that these lathes are little bundles of magic and maybe it was me that was the difficult one..

Anyways, as you know I purchased a Smart & Brown lathe and I do think that is a wonderful machine and a joy to use.
I'm beginning to understand why, now you've shown me what I was comparing it to....

The surgery looks good, glad you keep finding these problems with it, more problems fixed the better the patient will feel/perform when fully recovered.....

[bogstandard]

Darren,

This is one thing that definitely had to be put right. The sketch shows an exagerated view if it had been left as it was.

As I have said before, these lathes aren't made by just one company.
It just so happens that yours was made by a little chinaman working in the back of a dimly lit cave, using a pair of sharpened chopsticks and a rock as tools.

Shouldn't be too long now.

John

[Divided he ad]

The alibronze machined up like soft butter.

So.... How often do you use your mill to slice the butter for your morning toast?     


Never doubted it for more than a minute!!   

Nice to have the surface grinder handy to make sure your surfaces are flat.... it would have been a right b%$*£r to have to strip it all again ehh?!?


I hope Darren has a good local supplier of jammy douhgnuts? 


Looking forward to the rest ( I might have to take a look at my gibs one day???)



Ralph.