Author Topic: Sieg SX2p HT Review  (Read 18471 times)

Offline Will_D

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Sieg SX2p HT Review
« on: February 03, 2015, 04:25:39 PM »
I suppose this review is mainly for UK as I think ARC Euro Trade have specified this particular configuration for themsleves. They are ( I believe very proactive with Sieg)

Well after the wait Santa has called round in spades.

Today I found this:



75 kgs of "stuff"

Quick open the box and fond the destructions.
I like the way there was a spare fuse included:



More to follow while I check the above has posted correctly

NB: That only took a few goes to get right!
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Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2015, 04:27:59 PM »
Sorted out the images now I think!
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Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2015, 05:13:41 PM »
SO whats in the box:



There was some bubble wrap, I like the foam pad behinf the electrics (at the back of the column) and also that the handwheels are removed.

After a bit of plywood removal here's the machine:



The brown cardboard box contains various bits and pieces (hand wheels and tools)
I like the way they included 4 "Tee" Nuts:



Now in order to stand a chance of lifting the beasty (60 kG) the slides were removed. They would be anyway in order to clean them up:



So we have "Tee" Nuts! What about strained nuts :bugeye:

Time to lift the mill into place of honour. This will be my new "goto" place in the workshop/cellar. She is now sitting on top of my kegerator [a kegerator is an old fridge dedicated to dispensing kegged homebrew].

I know you shouldn't drink and mill but we may have a summer this year and after a few hours chewing steel a frosty from below wins the day. [Better than a suds pump?]



So tommorrow is all about cleaning, degreassing, knock off high spots, more cleaning. I hope "Doubleboost (John)" has shares in brake cleaner!

As a general comment so far on the cleanliness of the machine: No traces of sand (other than some tiny bits that had been sprayed red!) , lots of moly grease and oil, no evidence of cast irom powder (magnet test).

Nearly time to hit the kegerator but before that does she run?  I had bought the option speed readout and I must say belt drive and the HT motor are fantastic:



So thats it for tonight!

Overall so far I am very impress with ARC and this particular mill
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2015, 05:21:06 PM »
Nice one Will. Congratulations !  :thumbup:

Been there, myself, twice.  :headbang:

Looking forward to your adventure unfolding.......  :)

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline chipenter

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2015, 06:53:07 PM »
Arc do a guide for the x1 http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/machineguides/Super-X1L-Mill-Dismantling-and-Reassembly-Guide.pdf and the x3 , the old x2 guide has disapered but the x1 table is the same as yours .
Jeff

Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2015, 05:40:59 PM »
So lets start by degreasing and cleaning the two slides. I separated out the little bits: Gib screws, clamp bolts and the other bolts and dunked in white spirit. Gave them a shake or 3 whipped them out to drain (with a magnet) and then used said magnet on the bottom of the yoghurt pot:



As you can see from a VERY small selection there is a bit of CI dust in there.

So what about the Big bits? As it was a sunny but cold day half an hour in the back yard and I had scrubbed the castings clean. I wonder what would be in the bottom? Recall that the castings had already been wipped down with paper towels and WD40 (Ok Quickly).

This is what I recovered:



We don't want that around our slides.

The lead screws were scrubbed and then mounted in the lathe and tooth picks/paper towels were used to clean the threads (Sorry -no pic). When the paper was clean I stopped :thumbup:

So first in went the cross-slide: adjusting things up just right. Note: End float is of the order of 0.12mm. I will be discussing end float on this machine in more detail. At the moment I am just trying to get smooth slides/gibs.

Quick picture:



Now its time to mount the table and repeat the setting up of the gibs and end float.



Once the slide was sliding nicely it was time to check the orthoganal movement betwen the two slides (as shown above). With the slides still smooth I got < 0.01mm movement at the 3 extremes (Left, middle, Right)

So thats it for tonight. Tomorrow is to measure up for the DROs  :ddb: and start checking the column/quill realationship to the table.
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Offline kayzed1

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2015, 07:57:13 PM »
i bought mine about 6 weeks ago as a drill as i needed to drill some holes that the tap would not drop through, 1/2mm:doh: it is a fantastic little machine. I found as you, not much CI muc and the clear grease come off more easily that does the red stuff. I am very pleased with my purchase and should have gone to ARC before i wasted so much money on duff kit.
Lyn.   PS: hope you have many many hours of fun with it. 

Offline chipenter

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2015, 03:23:56 AM »
Hears my set up milled a 3mm T slot by clamping a spindle to the base , it's a 300mm DRO and is about 15mm short of full travel , I was going to make some stops but not needed them , the X is on a single bracket at the rear whith a remote readout .
Jeff

Offline mechman48

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2015, 02:46:51 AM »
Hi Jeff

Nice job..    :thumbup:   a bit confused tho'  ....  'the X is on a single bracket at the rear whith a remote readout '...   your pic shows you have the 'X' axis already fitted  with single bracket on front, do you mean either the 'Y' axis (should be on the side ) or the 'Z' axis is fitted at the rear...   :scratch: ?

Cheers
George
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Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2015, 07:09:00 AM »
Tramming 101:
First let’s check the axis definitions:

The Y-Axis handwheel moves the saddle in and out towards the column
The X-Axis handwheel traverses the table past the column (also usually the longest axis)
We never have a problem with Z, it’s the vertical movement of the knee, quill, head whatever.

The biggest error is usually a rotation about the Y axis so this is what we check first.
A quick check with the square and test bar shows the gap:



Now as the test bar is “not a test bar” it’s not guaranteed to be accurate. So rotate the collet 180 degrees and check again:



Yes still there! So check the other side of the bar for consistency:




So it is obvious that the left hand side of the table is Low and therefore the column needs packing on the Right hand side.

Now the column fixing face is a bout 160 mm wide so I will set the trammel to 80 mm. That way I should get a measure of the amount of shim needed.




In the above photo the clock has been preloaded and the needle set to 0
Now rotate 180 degrees and we see we have dropped about 0.3 mm



So slacken off, add some shim ( I used a 15 thou (0.38mm) feeler gauge blade) and tightened things up and checked again. It was interesting that as I tightened the 4 bolts up I could “walk the error out”. Eventually all were tight and this is what greeted me:



Also even though there was a similar error about the X-axis when I checked that I was within 0.02 mm!




I left the feeler gauge in place for the minute as I intend to start cutting some metal (Usuall new mill stuff “T” nuts, Clamp Bars, Table buttons, Circular Squares and the like. This should bed things down and then I will check again to see whats what.



I am pretty happy with the result so far. Can’t wait to start modding the mill!
This calls for a beer:  :drool:



A limited edition Westvleteren 10.2% masterpiece, bought to help save the Abbey! It the first time ever this beer was sold on the open market. You used to (and still do) turn up a the monastery and see what they will sell you!

Next up is to measure up for the DROs and start cutting metal
BTW: Great opening game to the 6 nations Pitty we (I am Welsh) didn’t win, but as I live in Ireland: Bring on Italy

Cheers  WIll
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Offline sparky961

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2015, 12:17:12 PM »
I do love a good unboxing thread with lots of pictures. I'll raise a glass to your future creations.

Offline steampunkpete

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2015, 05:18:40 PM »
Yup, this thread will be a great help when I get one of these later in the year after I've got the garage refitted with benches.  :thumbup:

Offline premodern

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2015, 12:50:11 PM »
Will,

I am a complete neophyte but am in the process of reading about the X2 mill so this series of posts is quite useful to me. But bear in mind my ignorance as I ask a question.

Before you shim the column, would it be worthwhile to first check the parallelism of the spindle to the z-axis dovetail column? Is it possible that the head needs some slight angular adjustment with respect to the dovetail on the column before moving to shimming the column?

Thanks,

Hans

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2015, 02:19:45 PM »
Hi Will  :wave:

Canny write up   :thumbup:, those seem to be a popular capable mill , what mods if any do you have planned ? 

Rob

Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2015, 05:01:41 AM »
Before you shim the column, would it be worthwhile to first check the parallelism of the spindle to the z-axis dovetail column? Is it possible that the head needs some slight angular adjustment with respect to the dovetail on the column before moving to shimming the column?
Hi Hans, Thanks for the reply. The reason I didn't check this is because (I think) there is nothing I can do about it.

The non-gibbed dovetail and the boreing of the spindle beaing housings dictate the 3d alignment of spindle axis to column axis.

If the was an error (which there might be) the only way to correct it is in the dovetails.

I don't think I can manage this!

Also on this mill the spindle doesn't move as it is part of the head and so the movement of the end of a drill say in x-y-z is purely dictated by the head moving on the column. On a knee/quill machine (like a Bridgport) then the tip of the drill will move in x-y-z depending on the quill alignment.

On a mini mill/drill with both a moving head and moving quill then its a combination of both!

PS: Any one more experienced in this area will to commeny on my analysis above>
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Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2015, 05:07:12 AM »
What mods if any do you have planned ? 

First mod is in the area of backlash.

The two slides are fitted with adjustable nuts (good) but at the handwheel end its not so good. I will be using the ARCeurotrade Myford cross slide type fix to see if I can improve the backlash. Currently its about 0.2 mm

Also fit DROs
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Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2015, 05:17:46 AM »
So first bit of cutting last night. Pretty impressed so far. Motor is quiet thanks to the belt drive. Some cutting noise comming through the bench.

Anyway some overall impression/notes so far:

Tool set is missing a 1 mm hex key for the gibbs

No t-slot if front of table for table stops. (Was obvious in photos so not a criticism)

Even though it has anti-backlash nuts the handwheel end is not good and needs improvement

A printed table scale would have been nice on the front of the table like on the Z-axis

Y axis feed screw is protected by the design of the apron - no need for bellows

The digital speed readout is correctly calibrated to reflect Spindle speed

It came with 4 M6 tee-nuts (not all do!)

All in all am delighted with the value for money.

Just need to sort the backlash!
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Offline premodern

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2015, 09:30:09 AM »
Will,

I was referring to something like this fellow did.

http://www.machinistblog.com/mini-mill-spindlecolumn-alignment/

Perhaps your mill is constructed differently or it is not necessary as it seems to be performing well, and that is what is important.

Thanks,

Hans

Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2015, 06:59:59 PM »
Ah I see! Thanks Hans. I must check the drawings for the various mills!

Still its warner reading indoors than in the garage!
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Offline Jonfb64

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2015, 03:06:21 AM »
Hi Will,

I have the exact same model mill as you. And as Hans has said I had a miss alignment of the spindle axis to the Z column. I spent a lot of time with shims on the column before I caught on
 :Doh:
The way I found to check was this

1, mount a dti  in the spindle
2, place something with a good long right angled side on the table
3, measure the dti reading as you move the head up and down

With mine I found the reading stayed the same which meant the column was at right angles to the table. So the error is in the alignment of the spindle to the column. To fix take the head off and you will find the dovetail casting is bolted with 4 cap heads to the spindle casting, slacken off and you can twist the 2 castings alignments. If you nip the bolts and refit the head you will be able to correct the spindle to column with gentle taps with a rubber hammer as above. When correct tighten the bolts fully and the jobs done
 :D

Jon

Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2015, 05:32:05 AM »
Thanks Jon I will check.

Have you done anything about the backlash at the handscrew wheels? Just abutting the thread into the housing seems a bit lax. It looks like there is something missing in this SX2P set up (like a thrust bearing).

I have just spent an hour measuring it all up and will then spend more hours trying to draw it out and my suggested upgrade (Based on Arc's Myford Crossslide Mod)

Will
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Offline PJW

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2015, 06:14:02 AM »
Hi, when you have it set up square I recommend that you put a larger handwheel on the fine feed knob as done by stilldriing, I and a few more members have done this, you would find it is well worth the effort.
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2015, 07:02:48 AM »
Better idea what Jon is talking about.

John Stevenson

Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2015, 09:30:04 AM »
Thanks for the suggestions:

After much time (I only have Word Draw at the moment) here is the sketch for the handwheel bearing mods:



I really believe there is a bearing missing as on the old swivley X2 mill the table does have a thrust bearing fitted! But not on the saddle.

Both of mine are going to be modded. I may need to adjust the housing length slightly to allow the handwheel to be done up correctly!
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Offline chipenter

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2015, 10:42:39 AM »
Will I fitted flange ballraces to mine bored out straight through no need to turn casting round , it has worked well for me for two years so far .
Jeff

Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2015, 03:35:43 PM »
Update:

This morning ordered the bearings and bits for the slide updates.

Also ordered a magnetic DRO set from http://www.machine-dro.co.uk

So having read the above posts and lookd at the links/vids it was time to adjust the head/quill.

Good news was there was zero about the X-axis. Y-axis had about 0.2 mm runout in 5" (love mixed units  :bugeye: )

So thanks to MadModder and the other threads its bullet biting time. Removed the head and found the 4 capheads as per the above posts. Rubber mallet time ended up with almost 0 error about both the X and Y axes. Slowly tighten it all back up check again and all still good.

Next its time to re-Tram the mill.

  This time much less shim to remove the error. ( 8 thou aka 0.2 mm does the trick).

Again by walking the torque around the 4 fixing bolts I managed to get less than 0.01mm error about the X & Y axes.

As the above threads have lots of photos there are none today.

Will certainly photo the MadMod sand the DRO fitting.

Talking of which: As magnetic DROs have non-contact reading heads I was thinking of fitting the X and Y axes with double sided tape initially! Any thoughts?

Will
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Offline premodern

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2015, 11:48:06 AM »
"Again by walking the torque around the 4 fixing bolts I managed to get less than 0.01mm error about the X & Y axes."

Well done, Will!

Hans.

Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2015, 05:27:52 PM »
Thanks Hans,

Its thanks to you all that I plucked up the nerve to dismantle my 70Kg machine.

Have thrown the wonga at a few companies and so next week its time to start drilling and modding.

Photos will follow!
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Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2015, 05:24:21 AM »
Holes are being drilled in it. Must say the quality of the cast iron is superb. Very easy to drill and tap.

Photos are being taken. Nearly finished X and Y.

Question:

Any one know of where to buy a small 'T'' slot aluminium extrusion. The table does not have a slot for end stops. It would be much easier to bolt on an extrusion!

Size is of the order of 400mm long by H: 20mm x D: 16mm and taking an M4 T nut
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Offline DMIOM

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2015, 05:53:45 AM »
.....Question:

Any one know of where to buy a small 'T'' slot aluminium extrusion. The table does not have a slot for end stops. It would be much easier to bolt on an extrusion!

Size is of the order of 400mm long by H: 20mm x D: 16mm and taking an M4 T nut

That sort of channel is sometimes sold by woodworking machinery suppliers to allow construction of adjustable jigs, fences etc. - you just rout a groove in the wooden jig base and let a strip of extrusion in and fix it with countersunk screws.

Edit: just remembered - they call it "T-Track" - just search google for "T-Track" and you should find track, ready-made stops etc.

Dave

Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2015, 05:05:58 PM »
Dave,
Many thanks for the update. Axminster UK list "T-Track" - when you KNOW what to google for its a doddle!
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Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2015, 05:19:57 PM »
Fitting The DROs

First let’s check the axis definitions [again]:

The Y-Axis handwheel moves the saddle in and out towards the column
The X-Axis handwheel traverses the table past the column (also usually the longest axis)
We never have a problem with Z, it’s the vertical movement of the knee, quill, head whatever.

I decided to fit the Eason ES-12, 3- Axis display along with their magnetic scales.

These cost a bit more than the optical ones but they are much shorter than their optical counterparts. Only 60 mm longer than the required travel as opposed to more than 100mm for the optical.

Also they are non-contact so there is a bit of leeway in fitting (not that we should be slack about fit!) Also they are basically sealed so no need for protection from swarf/coolant.

The ones I got are multi part.

The Aluminium extrusion (pre-drilled every 100 mm).
The magnetic strip with sticky backing.
A stainlees strip that fits over the mag. Strip
Not shown below are lengths of ‘o’ ring that are squeezed into and over the SS strip to lock it all in position.
So there is no need to use the sticky backing. Nice if you have to take the scale apart.

As seen the scales are pre-drilled every 100 mm with some large countered bored holes. As I don’t have transfer punches I decided to use my old Eclipse spotting punch. Turned/ground down the tapered puch to 1/8” and then turned up a button from 304 ss [*1] to be a snug fit in the c’bored holes with a 1/8” bore. Simples to spot the extrusion. (For other transfer punching I just need to make new buttons)




Next it was time to make up some brackets for the Y axis:
Used some 3mm aluminium angle:
Note: Now you can see the o-ring material in place.



And also for the Y-axis. Not the slides have been removed and this is looking at the back face of the slide.




So after much adjusting measuring cleaning sanding the Y Axis is done:



And at the back, next to the column is the Y-axis head:




And yes I know I have lost some 27 mm of Y travel but what the heck!

Again a celebratory brew was called for - no photo though :coffee:

I must say that the Eason display is the 'dogs' It weighs about 10 kgs and appears to be bullet proof.

A very impressive bit of kit. The built in functions and the display also rate highly on the 'dogs-dangly-bits' scale of things. [Btw: do our transatlanic cousins understand these refs. to 'dogs' ??]

Any ways 2 axes done now the Z axis - admittedly probably the least important axis but probably the most difficult to bracket up.

So far the two axes have taken 3 days ( well ok 12 man hours)

Footnotes:

1: Why stainless buttons?
A long long time ago my shop was in a damp cellar or 2 in Manchester. All the jigs/fittings/calipers etc took on a shade of rust. When i moved to Ireland I ditched all the mild steel and replace it with stainless - mainly 304 as its brewing safe. The free'er cutting grades often have sulphur in them which discolours in the presence of beer and food (i.e. BBQs).

I am lucky in that I have accees to the main Dublin scrap merchant (Hammond Lane) and they are great about me scrounging the SS piles. Usually i get it for free. Oh yes a few bottles of home brew works wonders


When the mill is ready I will be making one or both of Harold's grinder rests in stainless!

It really anoys me that they still make calipers, squares and similar hand tools in ms when after about a week of handling your swet will cause them to rust - unless you are anal about cleaning/putting away/have shares in WD40
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Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2015, 07:44:31 PM »
You could get a bit of the lost 27mm back by chopping the bottom off the Z axis dovetails, they are not used that far down.
John Stevenson

Offline DMIOM

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2015, 03:36:02 AM »
Or maybe by inserting a suitable riser block? and if you made it the full width of the machine base, you could maybe have jacking bolts in the four corners which would bear against the base and help with tramming?

Dave

Offline Will_D

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2015, 02:56:00 PM »
So finally its the 'Z' axis.

After a lot of thinking this is what I came up with:





Whilst at it, I decided to modify two of Arcs Indexable handles to replace the fiddly M4 hex key slide locks for the X and y axes:



These are M5 by 40 as ordered, they were shorted to suit, turned down to 4mm and re-threaded.

Now the above picture and this one:



Makes me ask "Does my bum vice look big in this?"

It is the new type 3, 3"  precission vice from Arc:

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices

I thought 3 inches?,  that's about right for an X2 but it when delivered iy's rather big and weighs 5.3 kgs!

It is BEAUTIFUL tho'   :drool:

Don't you just love gardened tool steel
Engineer and Chemist to the NHC.ie
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/

Offline steampunkpete

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2015, 02:35:21 AM »
It's not the size of your vice ...

Offline Runner42.2

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Re: Sieg SX2p HT Review
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2018, 02:47:35 AM »
I have read with interest the modifications to the Sieg Mini Mill SX2P. I have recently obtained a new machine and one thing that is of great concern to me is the position of the table when centred under the quill. Like the photographs show the Y axis position is too far back so that there is a large gap between the table and the column and the front of the Y axis is not engaged in the gibs. It is almost like that the Y axis casting has been installed incorrectly and that this casting should be reversed. I am looking at modifying the casting to install it in the reverse position, which require putting the Y axis hand wheel at the other end ( 2 bolts holes to be drilled and tapped) and the X axis gib screws put on the other side. Has anyone considered this modification and is going to improve the operation of the machine?

Brian