Author Topic: Substitute for "Gunmetal"  (Read 11155 times)

Offline Jeff Michel

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Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« on: March 05, 2015, 06:02:18 AM »
Can anyone recommend a substitute for gunmetal? It doesn't seem to exist in that description stateside.
Thank you

Offline hermetic

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2015, 06:05:53 AM »
Hi, try "Red Brass" You could probably make some if you have a melter.
Phil
UK

Gunmetal, also known as red brass in the United States,[1] is a type of bronze – an alloy of copper (88%), tin (10%), and zinc (2%).[2] Originally used chiefly for making guns, gunmetal was eventually superseded by steel. Gunmetal casts and machines well and is resistant to corrosion from steam and salt water,[3] and is used to make steam and hydraulic castings, valves, and gears, and also statues and various small objects, e.g. buttons. It has a tensile strength of 221 to 310 MPa, a specific gravity of 8.7, a density 8,719 kg/m3, and a Brinell hardness of 65 to 74.
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Offline DavidA

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2015, 08:35:28 AM »
Jeff,

Have you tried the local scrap yard ?

Dave.

Offline Jeff Michel

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2015, 08:55:48 AM »
Hi Dave,
Yes, the scrap yard owner is a personal friend and keeps a look out for likely bits for me. Unfortunately all the red brass coming in is in the form of plumbing fittings or tube. I have given this more than passing thought and just have avoided what Hermetic has suggested as the last resort. I have quite a stash of valves and junk fittings. Maybe time to put a smelter together.
Thanks
Jeff

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2015, 09:20:47 AM »
re. US plumbing fittings.

The red brass is the heavy wall pipe nipples with machined threads.

The usual plumbing valves, faucets and other castings are true brass (in other words high zinc, not tin).

This also is not invariable. I've seen small size brass pipe nipples that were clearly true (zinc) brass.

One giveway is the color. Both machine to a gold/brassy color, but red brass quickly oxidizes to a redder color.

A new piece of red brass pipe will look almost like a copper pipe with brass threads.

I don't personally know that what is called red brass, nowadays, in the States is equivalent to uk gunmetal, but it is different than the brass of the castings. I had heard that at least locally, red brass was now not acceptable under code due to possible lead content, and stainless steel plumbing fittings are replacing them on the shelves of the plumbing supplier here.

If you had a foundry suitable, it would be easy to make your own gunmetal with some scrap copper pipe or wire, some genuine brass, and some tin (possibly from some unwanted pewter ware). And a calculator.... :)
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Offline rleete

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2015, 12:48:13 PM »
McMaster-Carr sells bronze.  Good quality stuff, but not the cheapest prices.
Creating scrap, one part at a time

Offline Will_D

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2015, 05:16:52 PM »
Can anyone recommend a substitute for gunmetal? It doesn't seem to exist in that description stateside.
Thank you
Is your question:

What is gunmetal called in the states?

or

Whatever its called in the states, as its a tin/copper alloy it is therefore v. expensive! What can I use instead?

When this is clear I think you will get useful answers
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Offline Jeff Michel

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2015, 02:09:53 AM »
Can anyone recommend a substitute for gunmetal? It doesn't seem to exist in that description stateside.
Thank you
Is your question:

What is gunmetal called in the states?

or

Whatever its called in the states, as its a tin/copper alloy it is therefore v. expensive! What can I use instead?

When this is clear I think you will get useful answers

If you would put forth as much effort reading the question as you did patronizing me, I think it would appear as obvious to you as the other respondents.
Resp'y
Jeff Michel



Offline Jasonb

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2015, 02:53:08 AM »
In the UK Gunmetal is used for many small cast model parts as well as some large ones due to its ease of casting, its other bearing qualities may or may not be why its being specified.

If you could say what the part you want to make actually is then an alternative would be easier to suggest.

For example I have substituted cast iron for items like cylinders and eccentric straps that were originally supplied in GM.

But for bearings I would use our SA660 bronze as a substitute

Small castings that just used GM for its ease of casting can be steel or brass fabrications.

If you search your local suppliers for C90500 that is the equivalent to our gunmetal. Though the usual alloy used on model castings is a leaded GM known as LG-4 which the spec in the US is C93400, so again if you can say what the part is then we would have a better idea of which of teh two to suggest (or the other gun metal variations)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 06:54:51 AM by Jasonb »

Offline Will_D

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2015, 05:16:33 AM »
If you would put forth as much effort reading the question as you did patronizing me, I think it would appear as obvious to you as the other respondents.
Resp'y
Jeff Michel
Jeff I certainly apologise if you think that.

I obviously didn't quite understand your question.

Yet again no offence meant
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Offline rleete

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2015, 09:16:23 AM »
Jeff Michel, that kind of snarky response is really not necessary. 
Creating scrap, one part at a time

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2015, 09:32:19 AM »
Ah well, English, and the net, easy to misspeak and misinterpret.

I think the problem phrase was "When this is clear I think you will get useful answers." After useful answers (I hope!) had actually been given.

However, I knew what Will meant, rather than how it appeared.

Now shake and make up boys -- I think you'll both appreciate eachother's friendship here going forward. :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2015, 10:24:59 AM »
Steve,has anyone ever told you you'd make a really useful global mediator, as well as moderator  :med:

Jeff Michel,the substitute gunmetal suggestion is interesting and I did ask a question about red brass fittings in another thread a few days ago. Red brass fittings are usually initial stamped DZR or DR to indicate low zinc content. I have a collection of scrap ones that I plan to melt down for round bar ingots and see what the resulting alloy is like to machine. I would encourage you to go ahead and build yourself a gas bottle furnace and give it a go.......OZ.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2015, 10:30:03 AM »
global mediator? Piece of cake, Oz, I'm vice chairman of the local school board  :lol:.

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline Pete W.

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2015, 12:06:12 PM »
Hi there, Steve,

global mediator? Piece of cake, Oz, I'm vice chairman of the local school board  :lol:.

OK, so just which vices do your local school board members practice?   :lol:   :lol:   :lol:   :lol:   :lol:   :lol: 

Or is it rather that you use a vice to hold them to the topic under discussion?   :wack:   :wack:   :wack:   :wack:   :wack:   :wack: 
Best regards,

Pete W.

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Offline vtsteam

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2015, 08:45:34 PM »
We basically take the blame for everything. Luckily the job doesn't pay, and lasts 3 years. Could have been worse. Like 5 years!  :whip:


(reason for edit: forgot to add little whippy guy)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 10:10:16 PM by vtsteam »
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline Jeff Michel

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2015, 05:14:53 AM »
Will_D,
If I was offensive toward you, please accept my humblest apologies. It is not my intent to be abrasive or overly defensive. I've spent 30 years interpreting the intent of the written word and there are days when that should be left at the office.
Resp'y
Jeff Michel

Offline awemawson

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2015, 05:24:15 AM »
So let's all start again  :thumbup:

What is the intended use for the gunmetal?
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Will_D

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Re: Substitute for "Gunmetal"
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2015, 06:29:12 PM »
Will_D,
If I was offensive toward you, please accept my humblest apologies. It is not my intent to be abrasive or overly defensive. I've spent 30 years interpreting the intent of the written word and there are days when that should be left at the office.
Resp'y
Jeff Michel
Jeff, No problems. Did I say that if I really want to be abraded I just go to my local rugby club (Malahide RFC [ http://www.malahiderfc.ie/) Where I am the strange Welsh man ...

BTW: Next weekend's 6 nations will be interesting (Ok this is for the UKers here), Ireland is going for the grand slam, Wales could spoil it for them, so I may just stay at home for the day!)

BOT: English is the most difficult language in the world for obvious reasons.

Anyways: Apart from the different names for the same alloy (i.e. Its a Cu/Sn alloy and is expensive) is there a cheaper alloy that approximates the same criteria?

I am thinking of a high strength Aluminium alloy that casts well, and is half the price!
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