Author Topic: Repairing a high quality model marine engine  (Read 63059 times)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2009, 03:06:07 AM »
What amazes me John is the chrispness you get in those small parts,  :clap:

I can make small parts Ok, but they seem to lack definition for example rads are out scale etc. you'll have to show me how you do it one day.

Cheers

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

bogstandard

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2009, 03:13:30 AM »
Thanks chaps,

I keep saying, nothing special required, just a bit of trying, you never know you can do it until you try.

Stew, if you mean the rads on the ends of the arm, nothing more than a soft steel throwaway filing button.

Must get my ball turner finished though, small ones are dead easy by hand, but big ones are a pain.


John

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2009, 03:20:43 AM »
I was looking in particular at the locking arm and the domed nut.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

bogstandard

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2009, 04:33:09 AM »
Stew,

It is just a little matter of hand/eye coordination, plus, the more you do, the better you get.

For the last five years or so, I couldn't do any because of an accident. It was only last year after a second operation and got the use of my arm back that I found out I hadn't lost the knack, and I do hand filing and shaping as much as I can now, within my limitations.
It is called job satisfaction.


John

bogstandard

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #54 on: May 01, 2009, 06:01:03 PM »
Sorry it has been so long since I have done anything on this post, but because I can only do a little bit at a time at the moment, I waited until I had a bit more to show you all.

So all the snippets for the last few days are now shown.

I needed to produce a friction slide, so that when the engine is running, the handle will be held by friction, but by putting a little pressure on the handle from a radio servo, the joint will slip to its new position, and when stopped, will carry on as though it was still a solid joint.

A little thought had to be put into the selection of friction material. Because it is a fairly high temp and oily area, most friction materials were ruled out, so that left me with basically a choice of two. PTFE or metal to metal.
PTFE was ruled out because it is too slick, and I thought I would have great trouble getting it to act as a stable friction pad.
So after a little more thought, I settled on a steel and phos bronze combination. Both have good wear characteristics and shouldn't be affected by heat and oil.

You have seen a few of these bits before, but I have made a few extras to complete the job.
The friction bits are in fact either side of the slotted link on the left. The steel screw has a pad of PB fixed onto the end of it. The pad has flat on either side of a little stub that fits into the link slot, this effectively stops the screw turning when it is all tightened up. So after the screw is put thru the link, the PB washer is put on, that forms the friction brake. Then the handle, followed by the tensioning device (a spring on a couple of free rotating collars), the spring is compressed or loosened by the little knurled nut, which in turn is locked in position by the fancy handled nut after the correct friction setting is found.




This is what it looks like when assembled.




This is roughly what it will look like on the finished engine.




A view from the top.




So now those bits are made, the engine can be built up. So the engine was stripped of all the unwanted bits for the time being and assembly starts in earnest. It is this part that is the most critical, everything has to be done in the correct order, otherwise you might find you can't fit or adjust certain parts. I will, without fail, find some bits that I have made will require tweaking to get everything running smoothly, but it will just be a little tweak here and there.


The first job is to repack the stuffing glands on the steam chests.
On stripdown, I pulled the old packing out, and found it is rolled up PTFE tape. There is nothing wrong with this method of packing, but being an old fashioned type, I like to use old fashioned techniques that have been used over the last couple of centuries. Also I don't tend to use the new packing string material, that is covered in graphite. I use the real old muck, that is impregnated with a waxy grease, with just a little graphite. I find that when it is set in and the grease has warmed up then solidified, it makes a great steam tight joint, but also a very good self lubricating bearing surface.




So the bits are assembled in the right order, and a strand of packing string is wrapped around the shaft. The string is pushed down inside the stuffing gland and the gland nut is tightened down. You continue to add or remove string until the nut is in by about half it's threads, and the packing is exerting enough pressure to make the shaft slightly difficult to push in and out with your fingers. The gland will soon settle down and become a very good friction free, steam tight joint.




After packing, this is what it looks like. There is enough tightening adjustment on the nut to give many years trouble free steaming. If a whisp of steam starts to escape, a one flat turn on the nut should make the joint steam tight again.




The pair of steam chests ready for going onto the main block.




A thin gasket was fitted between each steam chest and the main block. It was at this time, one of my mods needed a final fiddle with. The slots on the slide valves were deepened slightly to allow the slide valve to lift off it's mating face by about 0.010" (0.25mm). After that the steam chamber was tightened down and valves and linkages were connected up, but the chest covers were left off to allow me to accurately time the engine.




The rear end of the engine was given the same treatment, but also I put on the friction slide.
Because this engine didn't have these bits fitted originally, the linkage operating handle (or the rod it fixed on) was incorrectly made. So to allow the timing to be done, the handle was loctited onto the shaft and the operating linkage was all zeroed up.
After the timing is done, I will drill and pin the joint to make it permanent.



If I am up to it tomorrow, I will set up the timing, and finish off the rebuild.

I do have a few extra bits to make, but they are just decorative requests by the customer, and won't hold up getting the engine to a running state.

Bogs

Offline kvom

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2009, 08:59:22 PM »
I was going to ask you why the steam glands on the paddleducks engine had the two piece design connected by threads, but I guess this explains it.   :smart:

bogstandard

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2009, 05:12:27 AM »
Kvom,

As I said in the post, PTFE tape just twisted up to make like a piece of string will be perfectly good enough for most engines. So there is no need to go searching out any specialist packing materials.

It is only because I like to use only the best in rebuilds that I go to such trouble. The joint I made will last for many trouble free years, and will only need repacking when the adjustment runs out.

The stuffing gland has to be packed. Not only does it prevent leakage, but also forms the bottom bearing surface for the cylinder or operating rod.

Bogs

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2009, 07:22:47 AM »
Looking Good there John  :thumbup:

I'll be one of the reasons that this post was slowed down  :wave:   spent much of Thursday at Johns chatting, visiting the scrap yard and then also chatting with Stew, went round to Stews shop too..... I don't fit in there!!!  :jaw:   :lol: 

I do enjoy a gathering and a chat, thank you fellas.... it was a most enjoyable day :thumbup:


We did look at this little beastie, it had the new friction linkage done at that time. A little fettling later it all seems to be coming together John   :headbang:





Keep us posted  :)




Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2009, 07:38:43 AM »

went round to Stews shop too..... I don't fit in there!!!  :jaw:   :lol: 

I do enjoy a gathering and a chat, thank you fellas.... it was a most enjoyable day :thumbup:

Ralph.


It was a size thing I'm only 5' 9"  Ralph must be 6' +, the shop head room is only just over 6' its what you call in the trade a head banger shop 

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:.


It was enjoyable meeting up and chatting  :thumbup:

Have fun

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline SPiN Racing

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2009, 01:07:52 AM »
Gorgeous engine work there John...


And thanks for taking the time to explain the packing. I always wondered in the back of my mind about that.. and as you started explaining it.. I was starting to go.. "OH YEAH!!  That is how its done.. and why..... I wondered about that!"


BTW.. Hylomar..
I LOVE that stuff.
It is ALWAYS on hand in my garage. I have one tube in reserve, and one in use.

It is ESSENTIAL for a rotary engine rebuild.

The rotary is basically a sammich of Cast Iron and Aluminum. With big ole O rings. One for the combustion area.. and one for the water jacket.
HOWEVER... the metal everywhere else is in contact with the dissimilar metal.
A HUGE problem many people ru n into is the heating and cooling of dissimilar metals. Cast Iron and Aluminum.. VERY different heating rates. And the end result of this difference is galling of the surfaces that mate.
The galling leads to leaks. The little tiny amount of galling eventually builds up little balls of metal that worsen things until eventually you start to leak oil or water in an area where the galling has been happening.
The Hylomar works two fold.. it makes a very nice thin seal.. and it also lubricates the two surfaces.. so when they heat and expand at different rates.. the seal is not broken.. and the metal is able to expand without galling.

Love the stuff.

Scott
SPiN Racing

bogstandard

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2009, 04:53:26 PM »
This was supposed to be the last post for this topic, but due to unforseen circumstances, it is the penultimate one.

As I said on the last post, I am just making a few extras for the customer to make his engine a little easier to operate and a lot nicer on the eye.

This is one he didn't ask for, but I recognised a problem. To empty his displacement lubricator, he would have to take the bottom plug all the way out to get rid of the water in there. This will also drop any oil that is left, and has to wait until there is no or very little pressure in the line.
I knocked up a new plug that when it is undone by 1 full turn, any water is dropped out of the bottom of the plug, and as soon as oil is noticed, it can easily be closed off. This will also work with pressure in the line, using it to force the water out.




You can see how it just screws into the normal place on the bottom of the displacement lubricator.




I had been asked to fit small acorn (domed) nuts onto the cylinder covers. But as you can see, the original one on the right just didn't have enough 'land' to fit the nuts on, as they would have hung over the edge of the cover. So a new slightly larger pair of covers were made, the beginnings can be seen on the left. Also what can be seen is a piece of hex bar to make the nuts out of.




A new pair of covers, they still need to be drilled and have three flats put on them so that they don't look too large for the top when they are fitted. Also, studs have to be fitted like they were on the steam chest covers.




Now a quicky lesson on how to make acorn nuts.
Hex bar was cut and trimmed down to 4.5mm long.




For fast precision drilling, I mounted the tapping drill into the tailstock chuck and fitted a piece of tube over the drill. Then using a digivern, I set 4mm sticking out of the end of the tube. So no matter how far the bit is sticking out of the chuck, the tube will bottom and I will have holes drilled to 4mm depth. The bits were centre drilled before drilling, and they were tapped and countersunk slightly afterwards.




This is what I ended up with.




The next job was to grind up a small profile tool that cut from the tip of the work towards the chuck, rather than a side plunge cut, which meant I could use my saddle stop to end the cut and I wouldn't need to touch the cross feed after it was set to depth.




A bit of brass bar was mounted up, face off and tapped to accept a little piece of 8BA threaded rod.




So all that needed to be done is, put a nut onto the threaded rod, and feed the saddle until it reached the stop. Nut profiled, next one.




So this is how many I got made (just over half of what is required) before my lathe motor decided it didn't want to work properly any more. It would not ramp up by itself, just turning over slowly until I spun the chuck up by hand, then it would climb up to full speed. A quick call to Chester UK verified that the caps had gone in the motor, and a brand new motor will be with me first thing in the morning. Can't be fairer than that. Mate coming around tomorrow to help swing the lathe out and swap over the motor. Then I can get these little buggers finished off.




So the steam chest covers will get these little beasties, and the cylinder covers as well (when the nuts are finished).



This is a little bit I have done previously, put a kink in the operating handle to get me a bit more meat onto the back rod. The collar on the handle was drilled 8BA clearance and the rod was tapped thru 8BA. This will allow the handle to be more easily removed than if it was pinned as shown on the plans. Also a set of correct pitch servo holes were drilled to allow radio operation of the handle.



This would have been on it's way to the customer today if the problem with the lathe hadn't happened, so I have contacted him and apologised for the delay. For his understanding, I will make him something special for this engine while I am waiting for the motor.

The next post will definitely be the last.



Bewildered Bogs.

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2009, 05:09:33 PM »
John

Do you need any help with that motor tomorrow ?.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

bogstandard

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2009, 05:18:17 PM »
Thanks very much for the offer Stew, but my mate has got it all in hand, I will just let him do it all.

I will sit on one of my tall chairs and shout him instructions, while keeping out of spanner range. :lol:

But if you could call around to pick up that sample I was talking to you about, that would be great.


John



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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2009, 05:34:55 PM »
Bugger about the lathe John!!!  :bugeye: 



I do like the drill stop.... Seems so easy once you've seen it done  :doh:

I'm not going to fall into the obvious trap..... But, I do like your acorns! And your method of preparing them     :ddb:



Hope all the motor repair goes to plan!  :zap:



Ralph.
I know what I know and need to know more!!!

Offline TFL45

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2009, 06:27:31 PM »
Hi John,

Small world! The owner of the engine you're working on picked me  :scratch: to give him a few tips as he assembles his Graham Industries TVR1A. He steered me here when I commented on the fine boat in his video on YouTube. If I'd known that he had access to your expertise, I would have headed for the exit - fortunately, I didn't lead him too far astray.

Glad to hear that you're back in form and as usual, another great series of posts.  :bow:

Floyd


TFL45

There's no need to be precise if you don't know what you're talking about!

bogstandard

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2009, 06:54:14 PM »
Floyd,

I had noticed this engine on You Tube before I got it into my grubby fat hands, and thought it wasn't quite running right then.

I just hope he is pleased with the work I have done to date. Not having the timing destructions causes a bit of a problem, but it is running OK with the general settings I have given it. But it would have been nice to be able to set it up perfectly to what the designer wanted to do with it.

Actually, I am not on form, and this might be the last 'how I do it' post for a while. My brain and soul is willing, but the body thinks otherwise.


Ralph,

As you know I do have very high precision drilling facilities on my tailstock, but that is really for special one offs, for quick and dirty, you can't beat the little tube method. In my drill boxes, I have all sizes of bits of tube for doing such jobs.

Once you have set up a job like this, and got all your bits prepared, you can knock them out all day long without having to turn your brain on.

It does seem like monkey jobs, but I am used to production runs, and will quite happily sit there all day knocking out special little bits like this. Other people are ready for a 1" drill bit in the drill press, and stick their heads under it after half an hour of such work.

If they don't ask for the old motor back, I should be able to replace the caps and have a spare on the shelf should it ever happen again.
I think it is the same fault John Hill had with his a while back, as they are basically the same machine.

But honestly boss, I didn't let any of the smoke out. :lol:


Bogs

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #66 on: May 08, 2009, 01:15:29 AM »


But if you could call around to pick up that sample I was talking to you about, that would be great.

John


I hope it not the sort of sample that comes in a bottle  :lol:

I'll be around at about 10.00 this morning

Cheers

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

bogstandard

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #67 on: May 08, 2009, 08:55:58 AM »
True to their word, this morning, just after Stew had left, a package arrived from Chester UK.

It was hell of a struggle watching the better half carrying it to the back of the house and unpacking it to set up a photo shoot. The thing must have weighed about 40lbs+.
But I soon recovered, and managed to turn the camera on without hurting myself.

Piccies below.

I love those chaps at Chester UK.

Bogs

Offline Darren

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2009, 12:57:01 PM »
Now that is good service  :)

Chester sounds pretty good too  :lol:

I'm surprised they gave you a whole motor and not just some replacement caps, top marks to them  :thumbup:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2009, 01:11:09 PM »
I like Chester`s service.......  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

bogstandard

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2009, 05:28:25 PM »
Darren,

I suggested just sending me the caps, but they insisted I take the whole motor. Most probably they have heard about my reputation when working with wiggly amps  :zap:

Who am I to tell them what to do?

Maybe they just love me as well as I do them. :lol:


John

Offline kvom

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2009, 06:08:08 PM »
Is that a standard collet you were using to hold the hex stock?

Very interesting process to make those nuts.   :clap:

bogstandard

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2009, 10:11:55 PM »
Kvom,

Over the years, I have found that buying hex collets is just a waste of money, as hex can easily be held perfectly in a round collet as long as you place the hex into the collet correctly, that is, keeping the corners on the hex away from the three slots.

If you were machining some nasty stuff hex bar, which puts a lot of force on the cutting tool, then yes, use a hex collet, but otherwise you will find a round collet just perfect.

Square bar is another matter completely, and I have square collets in standard metric and imperial sizes. You can sometimes hold square in a round collet, but very infrequently can you hold it perfectly, because of the slot positions. For large square or odd sizes, I use my four jaw self centring chuck.


John

Offline Darren

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2009, 01:38:26 AM »
Most probably they have heard about my reputation

John

That may have some bearing,  :ddb:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

bogstandard

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Re: Repairing a high quality model marine engine
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2009, 02:55:53 AM »
Here is an actual video of this engine before it was sent to me.



I can now see why the rear end of the engine overheated, the burner for the boiler is directly below and to one side of the hot end. My customer has now moved the boiler back slightly, and that should alleviate the problem.
The continual drone BTW is the burner for the boiler making itself known. It also shows the problem of getting the engine running and going into reverse from a standstill.

A good day yesterday, lathe fixed and an old steam friend and mentor contacted me, and he came up with the destructions for getting the timing spot on for this particular model of engine. It was pure luck that the lathe went down, instead of having the engine set to general running settings (perfectly OK), it will now allow me to get it perfect (or as near as can be done with the coarse thread adjustment available).

Finish off the acorn nuts, and another couple of hours retiming the engine, and I should be done.

Bogs