Author Topic: Banjo Build  (Read 154515 times)

Offline awemawson

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #200 on: June 18, 2015, 11:09:47 AM »
Modern cold chisels tend to come with those rubber safety discs round the head, but I must confess to finding them more of a hindrance to visibility than a help and remove them. Anything not too delicate I use a club hammer with a cold chisel so the face is about 2" square, and a normal ball peen for smaller stuff.

Cold chisels are excellent for removing weld splatter
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline DMIOM

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #201 on: June 18, 2015, 12:26:05 PM »
.......Cold chisels are excellent for removing weld splatter

even here?

...... plenty of spatter landed on top of my head.......

 :hammer:

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #202 on: June 18, 2015, 01:13:58 PM »

I always wonder if there's some sort of solution for gripping awkward parts in a vise like this. If I had more space i'd consider making a vise pedestal, filled with concrete and anchored to the floor, to give more space below the vise where the jaws overhang.

I also solved the head spatter problem by putting the face shield on, with it lifted up to cover my head.


Job done. I might punch the slag out of those holes just in case it interferes with the case hardening. I'm also considering putting a sort of trim around the edge, to give a better space to fill with the fire clay.

It's kinda silly how proud I feel about this ugly welded tube.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #203 on: June 18, 2015, 02:14:08 PM »
I'd be proud of that myself.  :thumbup: :clap:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #204 on: June 18, 2015, 03:32:55 PM »
I thought i'd do a quick bit in the garage, cutting a slice of steel to curl up tomorrow to try making a half round rasp again. Decided to break out the circular saw and cut over a foot in a few seconds. Makes all that effort with the hacksaw seem pointless!

I think i've already said it, but i'm really impressed with that saw. Got it from Aldi on a whim, and the box said not to cut (I think) more than 3mm of steel. I've cut aluminium with it as deep as the blade and all sorts. If it was a 'real' saw i'd be fairly cautious doing that due to kickback, but the thing has such little torque that it just stalls out if it's pushed too hard.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #205 on: June 18, 2015, 03:54:31 PM »
Was looking up swaging, more for something to watch really, and found a video of a guy getting some use out of cold chisels.

t=4m56s

Offline Bluechip

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #206 on: June 18, 2015, 05:28:55 PM »
When I first started work the electrical fitters had rotating vices, something like this:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Columbian+Multi-Purpose+Vise&view=detailv2&&&id=88E2B88B420CF2527C96B80ABBE7F9BA935E8392&selectedIndex=1&ccid=s2kLOPVt&simid=608054480797764682&thid=JN.TuUXdmhOWsGz0X9RV7iYKQ&ajaxhist=0

I thought they were Paramo make, but I can't find a piccy so maybe not ... someone will know.

There is one in Machine Mart but I don't have much confidence in some of their stuff ...  :( but maybe they are OK ??? Reviews seem to be happy enough.

https://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/clarke-cmv140-multi-purpose-cast-iron-vice
I have a few modest talents. Knowing what I'm doing isn't one of them.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #207 on: June 18, 2015, 08:03:07 PM »
I have one of those. They rotate in the fore'n'aft axis unless you tighten the jaws . I don't like that so much. It would be better if there was a lock for any particular angle, but as soon as you slack the jaws it can shift. And if you don't tighten enough it also rotates while working on something. I don't use the rotate feature much, other than to swing it 180 and bring the pipe jaws up. However, these aren't too good either because they are located in the center of the vise and are loose pieces. So only suitable for a long piece of pipe. You can't saw a short length.

I'm glad I have the vise because it is large and heavy, but the rotating features aren't the selling point for me.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Bluechip

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #208 on: June 19, 2015, 03:40:19 AM »
I think I did a poor choice of pic. The ones I occasionally used could be locked with a handle on the side, somewhat like a tailstock. So, if there was a piece in the jaws it stayed put.

Nor do I remember pipe grips ...  :scratch:  IIRC one end was the general jaws and the other had grooves like some machine vices.

It may be that they were produced by or for the works. At that time Derby had foundries and engineering outfits all over the place, it wouldn't be a big deal to have bespoke kit like that made... 

I do remember being shown that making an angled cut was easier if the job was tilted to make the cut vertical.

Anyway, it was not my principal area so I didn't spend much time in there..  :zap:  which was probably a relief to those who did ....

Dave
I have a few modest talents. Knowing what I'm doing isn't one of them.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #209 on: June 19, 2015, 08:30:47 AM »
Forging.


Was alot of work shaping this, since it's the classic case of if you move one thing the rest moves too. Lots of back and forth trying to find a satisfactory medium and get it close enough.


I went around the garage looking for something to make an anvil stand from. At one point I was considering welding a small temporary extension to the bottom of my metal melting furnace, but I found these... car holder-uppers that haven't been used in 20 years. Not since a younger me managed to accidentally drain the oil from the hydraulic jack. It worked very well.


Got the thing close enough. The tang end is twisted but most of that will be easy to correct when I cut the tang.


I spent alot of time working the transition from curved to flat, trying to get it straight, to the point that the metal bulged out. I think really I probably should've just made the whole thing curved to make life easier, but you don't get alot of time to think when playing with hot metal!

Edit: I forgot all about attaching the pictures. I should get back in the habit.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #210 on: June 19, 2015, 04:38:50 PM »
Butchered that cold chisel, also overheated it cutting the bulk out with the angle grinder, so I re-hardened it. The process knocked the rust off the shank and I can now see it's an Eclipse, made in England. Which as far as I know is good quality. I perhaps should've waited for the boot sale and picked up some smaller, more suitable chisels, but I'm hoping i'll be able to get everything ready to attempt case hardening on Sunday.

I left it rock hard but the tip cracked off. Then I over-tempered it I think and it's now back to too soft. I'll have a go at hardening it again tomorrow.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #211 on: June 20, 2015, 07:54:05 AM »
Really wasted that cold chisel. Just, on a whim, decided to try heating up that original bit of drill rod as hot as I could get it before quenching. I'd say it was getting towards yellow when it wasn't getting any hotter. And it hardened. Maybe all this time I just wasn't getting the metal hot enough, the non magnetic point (and a bit beyond) didn't seem to work. Nor was 'cherry' heat.

Been practicing putting teeth into a bit of bar and i'm a little worried about mucking up the real thing, so i'm putting it off. I'm also considering how to best support it. I've got a fair bit of lead i've been thinking about melting into the hollow. Or I could just relocate the vise on top of my Stump and hold it in that. It's arched so i'd assume it'd be fairly stiff if just clamped in a vise.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #212 on: June 20, 2015, 02:04:58 PM »

I think I now realise why that photo I posted a while back of the chisels had a pile of about 6 of them. They tend to go dull fairly quickly. I spent a bit trying to find a good medium between so hard the tip cracks off and too soft, and I could do about 3 rows on average before the chisel needed regrinding.


Got half of it done. I didn't get the orientation right for alot of them, they're all over the place, but I'd blame this on the way I was sitting. Towards the end I went and got a taller chair so the thing wasn't at shoulder height.

Also the teeth aren't pretty, some are higher than others and there's quite a long... I guess i'd call it a scoop? I think if I ground the chisel to have more of a back rake it'd produce better teeth but one I had it working at all I was happy enough.

Gonna do the other half but I wasn't able to get any fire clay for tomorrow, so I might end up doing it Monday. At the boot sale i'm gonna try and look out for some sort of blower. I usually see a fair amount of bouncy castle blowers and hopefully i'll get lucky.

Offline awemawson

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #213 on: June 20, 2015, 03:12:20 PM »
 Looks good Simon :thumbup:

If the chisel's only lasting a few rows, either the embryo rasp is too hard or the chisel is too soft I reckon. (Says he who's never made a rasp in all his life !!)
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #214 on: June 20, 2015, 03:19:19 PM »
I think it also might be that the chisel steel wasn't water hardening, since I can see a big vertical crack along the front of it. Could be full of loads of tiny fissures that're making some of the tips chip off easily. When I said on average I really should've been more specific and said that sometimes it lasts a couple of teeth before cracking off and sometimes it lasts a whole bunch of rows. Either way, it seems to be working well enough and I haven't found it too much of a hassle to keep touching it up.

At some point i'm probably going to use the gas forge again to harden the flat rasp, and i'll give that rebar another go at hardening since perhaps I just wasn't getting it hot enough too.

Offline awemawson

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #215 on: June 20, 2015, 03:26:37 PM »
If I get the odd ten minutes I'll try hardening a bit of the same rebar - but things are getting a bit manic here at the moment  :bugeye:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #216 on: June 21, 2015, 11:37:07 AM »
Don't worry about it too much. I'll be testing it myself on... Tuesday?

Got the mild steel fully en-rasped. Not the most even of patterns but i'm gonna pretend I was going for random teeth.  Hopefully the teeth won't just burn off in case hardening.


The chisel kept losing its tip until at about a quarter in it lasted the rest of the way. Kinda odd. Maybe the way it was tempered I was just slowly moving back through different tempering zones as I ground the front away, and eventually hit the one that was about right. Or maybe I found a bit that wasn't full of cracks. I also ground more of a back relief into it to get the teeth looking a bit better (on the far side in this photo so they're kinda hard to see, but they look more like the rasp teeth in photos of real ones).


Also gave it a quick test with two sheepish strokes.



It's just softwood but the teeth do seem to be cutting.

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #217 on: June 23, 2015, 01:23:54 PM »

Got the teeth in the flat rasp. Had a similar occurrence with the chisel repeatedly breaking at the start, then for the entire last half it lasted fine. I was sort of giving a chance to rest the hammer arm when grinding, so doing all the teeth one after another I eventually found (remembered) that it's better to just let the hammer drop rather than try and swing it. Definitely easier on the arm do to it that way. Had the handle tucked under my armpit and held it right towards the head.


Then got it hot and quenched it. I covered it with soap from a bar and it seemed to protect it. I'm still trying to think about how and why that worked. My guess is that it coated the surface with a mix of soot and sodium oxide and kept oxygen away. Edit: That's probably nonsense, any sodium oxide being made would probably instantly react with water in the air/ exhaust. And I imagine sodium hydroxide would be evaporating at that temperature.

It protected it very well because I tipped the quenching tank (bit of pipe shoved into a plastic cup) over 3 times, so it was glowing hot for a considerable amount of time.


After a scrub, there's still a bit of scale and pitting but the teeth are mostly intact. You can see some cracks on the right hand side. Hopefully it won't cause the thing to shear off at some point.



Went all around Consett today trying to find some hydrochloric acid. I've heard it's used in alot of things, as brick cleaner and a pool water additive mostly, but I couldn't find any. For etching it I could use vinegar or citric acid, but I was hoping for something quicker. The funny part is that it'd be quicker to just leave it in vinegar overnight than continue searching for the stuff, but I sort of want to keep a closer eye on the process over an hour or so.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 02:05:05 PM by S. Heslop »

Offline chipenter

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #218 on: June 23, 2015, 02:10:06 PM »
for brick cleaner try a builders merchant , for salfuric acid a auto factors .
Jeff

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #219 on: June 23, 2015, 02:33:21 PM »
Thanks. I don't know why I didn't think of battery acid for sulphuric.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #220 on: June 23, 2015, 02:37:47 PM »
Wouldn't using it clean any wire edge up? Just like stropping. Doesn't look like much scale at all, and I'm afraid the acid will actually eat the sharpness off the tips of the teeth.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #221 on: June 23, 2015, 03:24:44 PM »
Wouldn't using it clean any wire edge up? Just like stropping. Doesn't look like much scale at all, and I'm afraid the acid will actually eat the sharpness off the tips of the teeth.

It's not for the scale, but to sharpen it. I believe that before sand blasting files were sharpened with acid. It's also something people use to resharpen old files and rasps.

Either way, i'm going to test it first before risking the rasps.

Offline DavidA

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #222 on: June 24, 2015, 04:18:13 PM »
I'm clearly missing something here.

But why go to all this effort to make something like a rasp when you can buy them.

Surely the cost in time alone is many times the cost of a new one.

Dave. :scratch:

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #223 on: June 24, 2015, 04:39:42 PM »
David, there are many reasons for making things you can buy, from understanding how things work, building skills, learning about the history of toolmaking, learning associated processes amd material properties, taking on a challenge, and possibl producing something better for your needs than what you can buy. Rasps, by the way, aren't always cheap. Certainly not handmade custom shaped types.

Smon, my understanding is that the "sharpening" of new files by sandblasting is a sharpening step, not necessarily what we mean more generally as "sharpening", and that particular step is the removal of the wire edge after forming the actual point. A strop is used for the same thing on straight razors and similar processes on other edged tools. The strop doesn't actually sharpen by refining a point using an abrasive -- it's just leather and the blade is run backwards over it, it breaks of a tiny bit of excess past the end of the tip. I believe that's what the sandblasting does.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Banjo Build
« Reply #224 on: June 24, 2015, 08:28:52 PM »
I ran a test with vinegar on one of those tang cutoffs overnight and it didn't seem to sharpen the teeth more than they already are. And the rasp does cut fine as it is. So yeah i'm probably going too far with it.

You're also right about why i'm making rasps. It's partly something to do, but it also gives me a chance to try out a few things i've wanted to for a while. Although i'm sure what i've produced isn't any better than what you can buy.

Still waiting on good weather to try case hardening. In the meantime I might start actually working on the neck. It's still a good bit away from the point where i'd even need the rasps. Carving it round seems to be the last step since the earlier ones are obviously easier if the thing is still square.