Author Topic: Scale/rule ?  (Read 7569 times)

RobWilson

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Scale/rule ?
« on: March 29, 2015, 02:10:08 PM »
Hi Lads


Whats the reasoning behind calling say a 6" rule  a scale in the USA ?   


Rob

Offline Joe d

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2015, 02:32:09 PM »
Ask George III.... he was the last RULER in the US :lol: :lol:

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2015, 02:46:45 PM »
Hi Rob,

A rule is a conclusion derived from a set of axioms.  A scale is a set of spacings.  This was a definition from the US National Bureau of Standards -- back when the US had such a thing.  (It has been replaced by the National Institute of Standards Technology which is an Institute dedicated to the protection of intellectual property.  Their 600+ page charter makes no statement whatsoever about promulgating of enforcing standards!)

Offline sparky961

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2015, 02:50:57 PM »
Ignorance?

From what I've learned, a scale is used by draftsmen (or draftspeople, if you prefer) to make a drawing to a certain scale.  A rule, by contrast, has increments in real world dimensions.

It's unfortunate but most people do call the little flexible pieces of steel with numbers on them "scales" and you get a weird look if you call it a "rule".

Offline Manxmodder

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2015, 03:13:00 PM »
Is there any company selling foundrymans rules these days?

Edit to add:I should have said patern makers shrinkage rules which are in fact scales rather than specific measurement rules.

I found one here:  http://artisanfoundry.co.uk/store/product_info.php?cPath=32&products_id=208&osCsid=932b7bbb45af1524a27fd64a7709dd8e
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Offline PTsideshow

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2015, 03:19:40 PM »
 Plus you can't fight the catalogs and companies that use the word scale on their packaging. Besides it said so on the inter net, and they can't lie on the inter net!! :bugeye: :jaw: :lol:
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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2015, 05:42:46 PM »
And in rugby union "rules" are called "laws"
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2015, 08:29:58 PM »
To rule is to draw. To scale is to measure. You rule lines and you scale distances. A rule is technically a straightedge and does not have to measure. A scale is a means of comparison. You scale by comparison. You compare a figure on paper with markings on a scale to measure it.

A scale rule is a straihtedge that can also be used to measure or scale with. In technical trades it is still sometimes called a scale rule, but in common speech the scale part was dropped, and now it is just a rule or commonly here in elementary schools, a ruler.
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Offline bp

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2015, 01:16:58 AM »
When I was a draftsman a scale was a fairly expensive (for what it was) bit of plastic with measurements marked on each of the four edges.  The measurements were all different, from memory they could be, for instance, 1:1, 1:5. 1:20, and 1:50.  So if a drawing to a reduced scale was being drawn it was important to use the right part of your scale rule.  However if a "full size" drawing was being worked on either the 1:1 scale could be used (on your scale rule), or a steel rule, with, if you like, conventional markings (mm, inches in 1/10 or 1/32 etc) could be used.  The steel rule could also be used for other things, like measuring bits of metal, flicking wads of paper at people, and things like that.  However, I seldom used a scale rule, or a steel rule for actually drawing a line.  That's what squares, and straight edges and stuff like that was for.  A rule, either "scale" or "steel" was used only for measuring thing on a pre drawn line from point "A" to point "B".  Yes I have been called pedantic!
Of course these days any concepts like drawing something at 1:50 scale has been rendered obsolete by CAD.  I still have a collection of scale rules somewhere, unused for the last 25 years, along with some drawing instruments.  If anyone's interested in buying them drop me a PM!
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Offline SwarfnStuff

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2015, 02:50:18 AM »
So what is the thing the boss measures her flour / sugar on. Here in Oz they are Kitchen scales but guess they could be balances except nowadays very few actually balance the flour against the required mass in the other pan. They are usually some form of spring balance (Old) or use load cells.
Converting good metal into swarf sometimes ending up with something useful. ;-)

Offline DavidA

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 06:40:27 AM »
Manxmodder,

Re the patten makers rule.

I have one of those,  usually referred to as an expansion rule. Don't know when I acquired it or how long I've had it. I think it has three scales beside the standard 36". One for cast iron, one for aluminium and one for brass.

But £24.99 seems a very high price for what it is.

Dave.

Offline Bigbadbugga

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 08:56:18 AM »

Scales never lie, rules are there to be broken.
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2015, 09:04:11 AM »
I don't think I have ever called them scales. No-one I know does either. It has always been a 'rule'.
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Offline mklotz

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2015, 10:36:36 AM »
Before agonizing over the difference between "scale" and "rule", I think it would be a good idea to learn the difference between "your" and "you're" and "loose" and "lose".
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RobWilson

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2015, 11:11:30 AM »

It's unfortunate but most people do call the little flexible pieces of steel with numbers on them "scales" and you get a weird look if you call it a "rule".

Yes I have heard that on a fair few youtube videos Sparky ,and that is what got me thinking why ?

So looking at

starrett      http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/1309R-6

Lufkin        http://www.lufkintool.com/product/dsp_product_family.cfm?hier=7   


Notice I used USA sites for my examples  , both well respected manufactures of measuring equipment ,   you would think they would no the correct name for there product  :coffee:

Not that it really matters much , just wondering in all


Rob

Offline philf

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2015, 11:27:42 AM »
Before agonizing over the difference between "scale" and "rule", I think it would be a good idea to learn the difference between "your" and "you're" and "loose" and "lose".

I think that as long as you know what the poster is trying to say it doesn't really matter whether someone knows the difference between a scale and a rule or how to use apostrophes properly. It may be a mild annoyance to some but it's not 'the end of the world'.

I spent most of my life working on a drafting machine (drawing board) which had two graduated bars (Imperial one side and Metric the other) permanently set at right angles to each other (they could be rotated at any angle 0-360) and, even though they were 1:1, we always called them scales and not rules! Perhaps wrongly but does it really matter.

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Offline NormanV

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2015, 12:36:19 PM »
When I was a draughtsman (sp) I used boxwood scale rulers in scales of 1/250, 1/2500 and 1/25000.
I was working on maps and site plans

Offline awemawson

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2015, 12:39:48 PM »
Well the etymology of the word scale is fascinating if you look it up, the sense we are using it as a series of lines seems to come originally from a 'scaling ladder' :

scale (n.1) Look up scale at Dictionary.com
"skin plates on fish or snakes," c.1300, from Old French escale "cup, scale, shell pod, husk" (12c., Modern French écale) "scale, husk," from Frankish *skala or some other Germanic source, from Proto-Germanic *skælo "split, divide" (cognates: Dutch schaal "a scale, husk," Old High German scala "shell," Gothic skalja "tile," Old English scealu "shell, husk"), from PIE root *(s)kel- (1) "to cut, cleave, split" (cognates: Latin culter "knife," scalpere "to cut, scrape;" Old Church Slavonic skolika "mussel, shell," Russian skala "rind, bark," Lithuanian skelti "split," Old English scell "shell," scalu "drinking cup, bowl, scale of a balance").

In reference to humans, as a condition of certain skin diseases, it is attested from c.1400. As what falls from one's eye when blindness ends (usually figurative), it echoes Acts ix:18 (Latin tanquam squamæ, Greek hosei lepides).
scale (n.2) Look up scale at Dictionary.com
weighing instrument, early 15c.; earlier "pan of a balance" (late 14c.); earlier still "drinking cup" (c.1200), from Old Norse skal "bowl, drinking cup," in plural, "weighing scale" from a noun derivative of Proto-Germanic *skæla "split, divide" (cognates: Old Norse skel "shell," Old English scealu, Old Saxon skala "a bowl (to drink from)," Old High German scala, German Schale "a bowl, dish, cup," Middle Dutch scale, Dutch schaal "drinking cup, bowl, shell, scale of a balance"), from PIE root *skel- (1) "to cut" (see scale (n.1)).

The connecting sense seems to be of half of a bivalve ("split") shell used as a drinking cup or a pan for weighing. But according to Paulus Diaconus the "drinking cup" sense originated from a supposed custom of making goblets from skulls (see skull). Related: Scales. This, as a name for the zodiac constellation Libra, is attested in English from 1630s.
scale (v.1) Look up scale at Dictionary.com
"to climb by or as by a ladder," late 14c., from scale (n.) "a ladder," from Latin scala "ladder, flight of stairs," from *scansla, from stem of scandere "to climb" (see scan (v.)). Related: Scaled; scaling.
scale (n.3) Look up scale at Dictionary.com
"series of registering marks to measure by; marks laid down to determine distance along a line," late 14c., from Latin scala "ladder, staircase" (see scale (v.1)). Meaning "succession or series of steps" is from c.1600; that of "standard for estimation" (large scale, small scale, etc.) is from 1620s. Musical sense (1590s), and the meaning "proportion of a representation to the actual object" (1660s) are via Italian scala, from Latin scala.
scale (v.3) Look up scale at Dictionary.com
"weigh in scales," 1690s, from scale (n.2). Earlier "to compare, estimate" (c.1600). Meaning "measure or regulate by a scale" is from 1798, from scale (n.3); that of "weigh out in proper quantities" is from 1841. Scale down "reduce proportionately" is attested from 1887. Scale factor is from 1948. Related: Scaled; scaling.
scale (v.2) Look up scale at Dictionary.com
"remove the scales of (a fish, etc.)," c.1400, from scale (n.1). Intransitive sense "to come off in scales" is from 1520s. Related: Scaled; scaling.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2015, 12:56:28 PM »
To add to the merriment, I own an architect's rule, and an engineer's scale (both U.S. terms) . Both are three cornered and the engineer's is graduated in decimal parts of an inch, while the architect's is graduated in feet and fractional inches.

I think the respective names are in sympathy with the tendency of architecture to think in terms of line and drawing (ruling), and engineering to think in terms of measuring and precision (scaling), not that either does so exclusively. Just a matter of how they perceive the primary function in the tools, and themselves.
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Offline NormanV

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2015, 04:18:35 PM »
Off topic but in a similar vein, when you are drawing a circle do you use a compass or a pair of compasses?
I was brought up to use compasses to draw a circle (as in a pair of trousers) and a compass to find my way.

RobWilson

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2016, 04:24:17 PM »
Just came across this very nice description of the difference between the two ,By Henry Ford in his book Shop Theory  :coffee:


Rob

Offline Pete.

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Re: Scale/rule ?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2016, 06:14:01 PM »
Interesting piece Rob, but in it Ford is a bit contradictory.

He says that a rule is graduated in increments accurate to the measurements indicated on it but a scale is graduated in increments proportionally larger or smaller than the measurement indicated. He then goes on to mention a patternmaker's shrink rule, which cannot by his own definition be a rule, because the increments are not set out accurate to the measurements indicated on it. It must be a shrink scale.