Author Topic: Turned my first pen....  (Read 21111 times)

Offline raynerd

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Turned my first pen....
« on: April 21, 2009, 05:43:04 PM »
I don`t know if this is mechanical enough for this forum but as they say, this is "my ting" and fountain pens float my boat!  :headbang:

This is my first fountain pen from an acrylic blank. The nib and feed are sourced from a scrap Eversharp Skyline - the rest has all been turned on the lathe. It is a sac filler, so the section pulls out of the barrel, the sac is squeezed to remove the air and ink is sucked up and fills the sac. The sac is held within the barrel. The pen finished really well, I went up the grades of wet and dry then pinched the micromesh from my wifes acrylic nail buffering pad and then finally finished with a car interior plastic polish - very shiney, almost a glass finish.

Few issues - this is my first time using acrylic and trying to turn a pen in my life! I destroyed a couple of blanks in the process of making this one, but it was worth it as I learned valuable lessons. Even with this pen, I have many area to improve on! Firstly nothing is threaded and it should be. Currently it is all tapered and push fit yet really the cap and barrel should have a 36 TPI tri or quad lead thread and the feed and barrel should have a single lead thread just to secure it. Also, the excessive taper of the cap was not intentional and it reality should be more symmetrical with the end of the barrel. The notch on the barrel was to be engraved but after going to a couple of engravers today, noone could do it! Has anyone any experience with engravers - I want to get this engraved but don`t know the best way to go about it??











My next pen is set to be similar but threaded and with correct "cigar shaped" profile on cap and barrel. I also want to make an eye dropper filler - so I will produce a barrel that is about 1" too long, cut this end off, thread it, drill the barrel all the way through and then thread the section cut off to produce a blind cap. This threaded end section will then unscrew, ink can be squirted into the barrel and the blind cap screwed back in. More advanced but a neat and very easy filling system ....perhaps a piston filler or plunger filler would be better fitting with the mechanics theme of this site...maybe one day.

Thanks to everyone who has, in this short time I have been on here, provided me with lots of information. It has been greatly appreciated. 

ja2on

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2009, 06:04:48 PM »
 :bugeye: wow that is quite stunning
great work  :bow:
"36 TPI tri or quad lead thread" that sounds complicated  :scratch:
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 06:07:36 PM by ja2on »

bogstandard

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2009, 06:18:13 PM »
Very nice first job there Chris, you should be proud of yourself.  :clap: :clap: :clap:

John

Offline Darren

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2009, 06:21:24 PM »
I think that's a cracking pen, I quite like a good pen myself. Not that I have one these days....

That's a job well done and something to be proud of  :thumbup:
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Offline Bernd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2009, 07:16:00 PM »
Chris,

I'm impressed. :headbang: :headbang: If you hadn't pointed out the slight engineering changes I would have never known. :thumbup:

I might just have to put an order in for a pen.

As far as engraving goes you could make your own engraver. If your interested I can try to dig up some pics of a home built one or two.

Bernd
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2009, 07:36:49 PM »
I don`t know if this is mechanical enough for this forum but as they say, this is "my ting" and fountain pens float my boat!  :headbang:


Well... first you should know we aren't mechanical only. Pretty much anything you make is fair game here!

Second... damn! That is pretty nice. I have given thought about doing pens someday. Seems to me they would make good gifts.

Eric
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Offline Divided he ad

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2009, 07:52:41 PM »
I'm liking this pen Chris  :thumbup:

I don't think you have to worry about it being "mechanical enough" for the forum..... This forum is for all stuff made and modified (that's assuming I read the sticky topics correctly?)
Quote
Welcome to the MadModder.

This is a place for those who like to build, craft or modify anything and everything can gather. We are going to take our cues from the famous HMEM model engine site. I want this to be a place that fosters ideas and learning... plus a good place to show off your talents and skills.

Yep! Think I did!?  :) 

Build.... Check.

Crafted...... Check.

Talent.... Check.

Skills.... Check.


I think you certainly fill those criteria  :thumbup:


Now.... About this pen.....


I'm liking the colours (Tortoise shell?)  and IMHO it's the odd shapes that you produce that make it what it is..... Yours  :thumbup:
I personaly love making odd shapes that I can't repeat exactly, it makes all sorts of one ofs  :)



Please give us a better look at the build process of the next pen, success and failures are often posted.... It all helps to let people know it's not all as easy as some people make it look (just look at my Aeolipile thread..... I still can't make a sphere!!!   ::)



Question about some of the things you said....

1/  What does this "sac" look like?

2/  Can we see an exploded view of the pen?

3/  The engraving.... Is it to be inside that ring? When you say "notch" I'm looking for a flat or the likes within the round and I can't see it?

(If it's in the ring (groove) could a brass piece be put in there?  I bet they could engrave that? it'd be like engraving a wedding ring etc!

Just a thought :scratch:




All said, I'm impressed, on the product, (I'd never much thought about) top notch :beer:  and the nice shiny finish..... I like shiny  :headbang:     :D





Ralph.
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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2009, 08:49:18 PM »
Nice work Chris :thumbup:

Yes, get it engraved as number "001" it deserves to have a place in history! :ddb:
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2009, 02:20:08 AM »
Thanks for your positive comments. Bernd -  if you could dig out some drawings of a home engraver I would be more than interested, although perhaps I am at too early a stage and  it would be easier to get this professionally done.

A few questions - starting with the engraving.

1. One of the guys at the engravers, like Divided he ad "above, said that I could try a gold band or brass band and slot it into the groove (yes I meant a groove and not a flat notch, sorry). I don`t understand how this would work, I could easily turn a small brass ring but it wouldn`t sit in the groove, surely you would have to make it larger so that it would thread up the barrel and then it would stand proud of the groove - how would you get it to lay into the groove.

2. I would in future, like to go more advanced and machine my own clip and one day even nib. I mean the nib especially would be an unbeliveable achievment. Has anyone got any ideas about how this could be machined? I have included some good pictures of pen clips -





I know how I could attach it with a similar idea to the blind cap I posted in my original post only on the cap end. The piece would screw in and lock the clip in positon.

Any further comments greatly appreciated

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2009, 02:23:52 AM »
Really beautiful work there Chris!  :thumbup:

Well done......  :headbang:

David D
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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2009, 03:11:03 AM »
What a lovely bit of work well done Chris

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thanks for posting.

Regarding making a Knib this may give you some ideas its about making musical box combes putting the splits in would be symilar to spliting the knib

http://chesteruk.net/store/don_busby_music_box.htm

Couple of questions about the threading as I've been giving this some thought.

1:- What Diameter would the thread be ?

2:- What thread form 60º or 55º or something else

3:- I take it the thread would be cut in the plastic in the case of your example acrialic or at some stage would you want to cut it in brass or steel.

This is what I've had in mind:-

If you are cutting the thread in soft material you can wind the lathe over by hand when you got the gear train set to give you the pitch.

For 36 tpi tristart you would set your lathe up to cut 12 tpi

To cut the thread you need a tool (correct term is chaser) that would cut the three threads at the same time, you can buy chasers that will do this or it may even be posible to modify a die to do it.

When you've got the male thread sorted it would be an easy step to make a tap for the female thread especialy concidering the soft material you want to work with.

Can any of the chaps comments on this it may be a load of rubish but at least its a starting point.

Cheers

Stew
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2009, 05:04:28 AM »
Hi thanks for the reply.

1:- What Diameter would the thread be ? - a variety really for different pen sizes and shapes which is why taps and dies aren`t the way I want to go down. If I can learn to cut the threads then I won`t need to worry about the diameter. The internal diameter of a cap and barrel is about 0.37" but then if I wanted to make a more streamline pen it would be less and each section and barrel will also be different - but the barrel and section thread and any blind caps will just need to be single start/lead.

2:- What thread form 60º or 55º or something else? - standard 60

3:- I take it the thread would be cut in the plastic in the case of your example acrialic or at some stage would you want to cut it in brass or steel. - just plastics for now and I guess you could turn it by hand, it is pretty soft with a sharp tool.


I haven`t heard of a chaser - can you link me to one and explain how it would work? The only method I have seen is for a 36TPI tri lead in which a 12TPI is cut, the start rotated 120 degrees and the next cut is made....and one more. I haven`t got a CLUE how in reality this is done, I was just told that this is the method. This chaser idea seems interesting but is this a tool specific to diameter like and tap and die where I would need a whole range?

The link for the nib slit looks good but making the nib is certainly a pipe dream at the moment - the first thing is threading and then before the nib, I would like the make a cap clip like in the pictures. I think a clip is more realistic than making a nib (with a nib, I would also need to make a feed.)

Chris

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2009, 05:31:46 AM »
Hi Chris

Next question what thread pitches can you set your lathe to cut ?. 12TPI ?

Cutting a multi start thread as with all things ther's more than one way to do it, the first way I'd try would be

1:- set your machine up to cut 12TPI

2:- Set compound slide so that it moves parrallel with the lathe bed.

3:- With a single point tool cut your first thread when to depth Zero your cross slide dial

4:- Advance your compound slide 0.027" (1/36)

5:- Cut your second thread

6:- Adavance your compound 0.0.27

7:- Cut your third thread

With a chaser you'll cut all three threads at the same time so will be more accurate.

The only way for you to learn this is for you to start and do a few trials on scrap material, you'l product a lot of scrap at first but yoy will learn as you go along and only get better.

this is one site selling chasers http://www.cromwell.co.uk/category_page/393506

 it'll give yoy an idea what they are as your requirements are a bit strange you may have to improvise by making your own simply cut up a dia, your thread pitch is covered by cycle threads, you can get them from Tracy

http://www.tracytools.com/tapsanddiesspecials.htm

Hope this helps I've certainly given you somthing to think about  :scratch:

Stew






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Offline raynerd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2009, 05:55:57 AM »
When you say - cut your second thread, cut your third thread - how do you ensure that is is 120 degrees around the piece? Do you need to somehow index it?

Yes, btw, my lathe can cut 12TPI.

I am really new to machining and I am sorry but I don`t understand how the chasers work - do you use them like a cutting tool so the diameter of the work doesn`t matter? ....and the bit about cycle threads and your second link totally destroyed me  :scratch:  sorry...I did have a search of the net for more info but didn`t get anywhere.

I am happy with your first method if you tell me how I should ensure the threads start at the correct roatations around the piece - really it is just like cutting a single thread three times right?

I am more interested about the chaser idea if you can give me some more details? - also the chaser cuts the external thread, but how would you cut an internal thread to match? I appreciate your time for the reply.


Chris

Offline raynerd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2009, 05:58:19 AM »
PS-  just re-reading your post - what does increasing your compound slide 1/36 do in terms of the thread cut?

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2009, 06:18:15 AM »
Q:- When you say - cut your second thread, cut your third thread - how do you ensure that is is 120 degrees around the piece? Do you need to somehow index it?

A:- No you take care of this by advancing your compound by 1/36

Yes, btw, my lathe can cut 12TPI.

Q:- I am really new to machining and

A:- It may be a good idea to try maching up a simple thread with fitting nut just to get you though the learning curve a bit, try somthing like an 12mm thread.

Q:- I am sorry but I don`t understand how the chasers work - do you use them like a cutting tool so the diameter of the work doesn`t matter?

A:- Yes and No the diameter will mater but first have to turn the diameter using a normal tool then set up you chaser

Q....and the bit about cycle threads and your second link totally destroyed me    sorry...I did have a search of the net for more info but didn`t get anywhere.

A:- Cycle threads are just like BA or Metric or BSF there just a threads system derivied by the cycle industry but it is no longer in general use but you can still get the taps and dies from specialist suppliers.

Q:- I am happy with your first method if you tell me how I should ensure the threads start at the correct roatations around the piece - really it is just like cutting a single thread three times right?

A:- Yes

Q:- I am more interested about the chaser idea if you can give me some more details? - also the chaser cuts the external thread, but how would you cut an internal thread to match? I appreciate your time for the reply.

A:- I don't think you'll get a ready made chaser to cut 36 TPI you'l have to make your own and a good point to start would be by getting hold of a Tap and a dia by grinding the unwanted bits away you could make your own chasers the tap would make the boring tool or the external tool I've never tried this it just something to experiment with.

We're getting there

When I get my system at home on line again I'll post some sketches

Stew


« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 06:25:48 AM by sbwhart »
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2009, 06:54:46 AM »
 Ok, I`m with you. I have cut a few threads on my lathe on brass, so I do understand the general idea. As of yet, I have not cut a mating pair, internal and external thread - I think perhaps this would be an idea!!

I`ll give a 12TPI single lead thread a go - my confusion is cutting the internal thread as I need a small internal cutting tool to get into the hole ... I have some HSS so I`ll have a go at making one this afternoon or tonight. Then perhaps once that is a sucess, I`ll give multi lead a try.

Sketched would be most appreciated!

Last question - in terms of a mating pair of threads - what are the calculations for sizes - so for example I have some 10mm brass scrap I can use, can someone give me some exact measurements- internal, external diameters, depth of cut and tollerence? I don`t know how to do any calculations in terms of what will work. All the lathe manuals show you how to "cut a thread" they don`t tell you how you make two threads latch!

Chris

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2009, 07:01:05 AM »
Chris

Have a look on the down loads you can find all the information you want if its your first time just get the bits to match worry about the rest later. Check your PM

Stew

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Offline Bernd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2009, 09:21:17 AM »
Chris,

Check your e-mail. I sent you info on two engravers and how to cut multiple threads.

Bernd
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2009, 11:47:46 AM »
Thanks for the info guys - all this looks a little too complex for a beginner. I think I need to ensure my lathe is running smooth and true (which I`m not convinced it is!) and Bogstandard (John) has offered me a visit to his house next week. The intention was that I was going tonight but home circumstance dictates that this week is not possible... I guess I am being impatient as usual but I think I need to wait and speak to someone in person. I can`t just sit on my hands for a week so I think maybe another pressure fit model is in the immediate pipeline.

Thanks for all help so far .... I`ll let you know how things progress and post pictures of mark II as and when it is complete.

Chris

Offline Darren

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2009, 12:06:40 PM »
I`ll let you know how things progress and post pictures of mark II as and when it is complete.

Chris

Please do, I've often thought of making myself a pen sometime and yours looks great.

PS, do go to Johns sometime, you will find it quite an experience, I know I did..... :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2009, 12:08:40 PM »
Hi Chris

When your at John's I'll pop round to meet you if thats OK

Stew
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2009, 12:28:17 PM »
Sounds great - look forward to meeting you!
Chris

Offline Bernd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2009, 08:04:14 PM »
Chris,

Your e-mail you give in your Profile is different than the one you gave me. I sent the first to your Yahoo account. Second one should be there at the new address you gave by the time you read this.

Have fun. I wish I could visit with John in person. That's one character I'd like to get to know in person and I'm speaking truthfuly here Bogs. :wave:

Bernd
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bogstandard

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2009, 09:14:40 PM »
I'm glad you used the word 'character' Bernd.

Is that meant that I am like Mickey Mouse or Goofy?

 :lol: :lol:

Bogs

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2009, 09:24:30 PM »
Tough choice you gave me there. :med:

Bernd
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Offline websterz

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2009, 01:09:32 PM »
Tough choice you gave me there. :med:

Bernd

At least he didn't ask what your sac looks like. :jaw:
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Offline Divided he ad

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2009, 05:21:27 PM »
Quote
At least he didn't ask what your sac looks like.  :jaw:

Hold on a mo'..... I didn't even get a picture so you can't laugh at me too much!!!  :lol:



I'm definitly going to have to put pen research onto my never ending list!  :coffee: 




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Offline Bernd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2009, 05:52:08 PM »
Chris,

E-mail resent. Did you get it?

Bernd
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2009, 01:53:54 AM »
Bernd - yea pm sent back.

Offline Darren

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #30 on: April 24, 2009, 07:59:15 AM »
This was on another forum, I don't claim to understand it, just passing it on.

When using the threading dial, there are three things that come into the equations -- thread pitch, or TPI (as set by the gearing), leadscrew TPI and teeth on the thread dial. There's no one size fits all... you need to calculate if it's not all in the book.

For example, on my 618 I often do 4 lead 36 TPI threads, so I set the gearing to 9 TPI, use a 16 tooth thread dial with a 16 TPI leadscrew so each quarter mark on the dial is a different thread start.

But once I tried to do a different setup that was impossible with the thread dial. I think it was 32 TPI four or three lead.

Using a bit of trig you can always set up for multiple starts in any setup. If you can do one thread start with the thread dial, you can do other thread starts by simply resetting the 0 positions of the compound and cross slide by moving the compound by twice the pitch and moving the cross slide by square root of three times the pitch. Just move them in opposite directions. Then use the thread dial the same way as the previous start. It's really not that hard once you've done it.
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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2009, 07:08:38 PM »
Darren, I would have to read that a few more times before I could claim competance!


What would be the chance, especially for soft material, to make a multi point tool?  For example, the 36TPI 4 start thread, start with a short length of 36TPI male thread which you braze at right angles across the end of a square steel bar then grind down the round threaded bit until you have a multi point tool.  Set the feed to 9TPI and presto! 36TPI 4 start thread! :med:

You could also use a bit of a 36TPI tap or a broken die nut.

BTW, were not the earliest threads cut with such multi pointed tools?  Is that not the form of the original 'thread chaser'?  Maybe such things are still available? :scratch:

[Bogs probably has a set of them!]

[Still thinking, maybe a fragment of 36TPI hacksaw blade? :coffee:]
« Last Edit: April 24, 2009, 07:15:34 PM by John Hill »
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Online John Hill

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2009, 07:12:26 PM »
OK, here is a thread chaser, for wood though.

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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2009, 07:15:31 PM »
That is spot on John  :thumbup:

That is what I was on about using a chaser for I probably didn't explain it well   :scratch:

Cheers

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2009, 07:17:54 PM »
I get the gist of it John, he's saying cut 4x 9tpi threads using the dial indicator to give the correct positioning for each start.

Ending up with a 36tpi thread with four starts...if I understand it correctly. It doesn't sound that hard to do?

But then I haven't tried it  :lol:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline raynerd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2009, 04:50:07 PM »
Just to clarify something with multiple start feeds, take this scenario:

Two pens are ready to thread the barrel for the barrel/cap thread - one is threaded 36TPI quad lead and the other is threaded 9TPI standard single lead. When I come to screw the cap on the pens, in my mind the cap will go up the thread the same distance per turn (revolution) on both pens, however the quad lead will catch the start of the thread quicker - right? A pen maker I spoke to said that a multi lead thread allows the cap to be turned up the pen further (i.e tightened or released quicker) with less revolutions of the cap. This to me makes no sense as they are both 9TPI but with the quad lead, you just have 4 of them running parallel. Clearly there is something I am not getting. Do the threads on a multi lead thread cross?

The pen maker also said a multi lead thread is "stronger" but I don`t know what he means by that.

Thanks for the posts so far, really informative.

Chris






 

Online John Hill

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2009, 04:52:44 PM »
That is spot on John  :thumbup:

That is what I was on about using a chaser for I probably didn't explain it well   :scratch:

Cheers

Stew

UM, sorry Stew, :bow:  I didnt read your posts carefully enough to realise you were talking about the thing I had in mind.
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2009, 05:23:41 PM »
No worries John  I was just pleased someone else was on the same wave length as me.

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

bogstandard

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2009, 05:35:22 PM »
Just to put your minds at rest, here is a little info for you to chew over, it might put things straight.

What you are making is a 9tpi thread multiplied by four but at the same depth as a 36 tpi one, all running parallel to each other. So the multistart will travel forwards four times faster than a single cut 36 tpi thread.

This pic explains it a lot better than trying to tell you, it is based on a standard four lead screwthread. See how far forwards it moves for each revolution.



It is for that reason, chasers shown above cannot be used for cutting multistart threads. They will only cut or dress a single thread.

Darren, it can be an absolute pig to do.

The main problem, the smaller the TPI, the faster the cut over a given length is done. Also, this lathe is designed for a min TPI of 12, by making it do 9TPI would grossly overload the gear train when driven by the spindle, and so has a tendency to smash the gears or holding bolts (I have had it happen to me), so you have to modify the lathe so that the drive comes from the leadscrew, usually by fitting a handle onto the end of the leadscrew and turning it by hand. This solves two problems, the first being the stress on the gear train, and the second being, you don't have to have the reactions of a s**thouse rat to to disengage the half nuts before the cutter hits the chuck when doing it under power.

These are columns I made for one of my engines, they are based on a 2.5 TPI, two start thread, using a specially ground cutting tool. Doing these on my large lathe under power, smashed the heads off two 3/8" diameter gear train holding bolts like they were lollipop sticks. So it does happen, if anyone doesn't believe what I am telling them. They are only just over 1/4" diameter, so it wasn't the cutting itself that caused the breakage, it was the stress in the geartrain trying to move the saddle across at high speed to do the cutting.





Bogs
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 11:51:43 PM by bogstandard »

Offline raynerd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2009, 09:12:14 PM »
Cheers Bogs - understood. As always, your post is incredibly informative and I now both have a better understanding of multi-lead threads and the capabilities of my lathe. As you have already told me, I am going to have to modify my lathe so that the gears can be cut my hand to reduce stress on the gear train and this shouldn`t be a problem because any threads I cut with low TPI will be on soft materials anyway and will be perfectly OK cutting by hand turning.

bogstandard

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2009, 11:45:50 PM »
Chris,

The material won't come into the equation. Because you will be using such a large gearing advantage, you will most probably be turning a few times on the handle to get 1 turn on the chuck, so you could put any material you liked into the chuck, and if you have the right material for the cutter in the toolholder, it will cut it.

The handle should be demountable, so that when used as a normal lathe, it won't be hitting you in fragile places.

John

Offline raynerd

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Re: Turned my first pen....
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2009, 03:30:23 AM »
OK, look forward to our visit and you can explain more in person.

Chris