Author Topic: Checking a 45 degree square?  (Read 18559 times)

Offline DMIOM

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2015, 06:52:12 AM »
Rich,

Given you've already got an accurate 90 degree master square, I think you could make an assessment by adding just a flat base plate, 'something' with one known good straight edge, and a short length of known parallel bar - and no need for any scribing or interpretation thereof:

(i) Lightly clamp your straight edge to the plate. (ii) lay your new one against the straight edge (iii) lightly clamp the parallel against the upper edge of your new one, (iv) ease the new one out and re-lay it against the top side of the parallel, (v) compare this against your known good 90 degree master square.

Sketch below .....

Dave

Offline loply

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2015, 08:06:33 AM »
DMIOM, I see how that would prove that the two 45s add up to 90, but you wouldn't know if you had a 44 and a 46 though? Or am I missing something?

I thought about using Pythagoras but I can't see a way to accurately measure the length of the thing, plus the slightest bit of damage to the edge of the triangle would make it hard to measure.

I'm trying to understand the method for using rings/bearings but I'm not getting it... Could someone explain? Do you mean to put two discs of different sizes side by side (like oO), having made the sizes of them such that an object laying over them would be at exactly 45 degrees? That seems like a plausible method?

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2015, 08:07:26 AM »
Can one not precisely check or set angles by turning (and / or grinding) precisely sized disks and abutting them? Three such disks firmly in contact with each other can have straight edges tangentially touching two disks and forming an easily calculated precise angle between them?

As stated, you get 3 x 60degrees not 45. Mind you, I was wrong this AM :Doh:

You can ,Andrew,  work a set of tool makers buttons but of different sizes- I think

Cheers

N

Offline loply

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2015, 08:12:03 AM »
Just to clarify one other point, to be comparable with the accuracy I managed to get on my scraped parallel and master square ideally I'd want to get the 45 degree surface to be accurate to within about +-5 microns (ie 0.005mm) of where it should be, I mean the 'top' of it won't be any more than that from where it should be, if you see what I mean. I don't know what angular accuracy that translates to, but I'd probably make the thing about 6 inches tall...

Offline loply

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2015, 08:22:12 AM »
I guess the attached image is what I was thinking.

By turning the two cylinders to size (and presumably finishing really carefully with some fine sandpaper) I could do the maths and end up with a parallel or suchlike lying across them at 45 degrees, I could then indicate off that to assess the one I was making/testing.

Kind of just like a sine bar really, but since I don't have a sine bar or a set of gauge blocks it saves having to buy them  :clap:

Offline DMIOM

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2015, 08:30:35 AM »
DMIOM, I see how that would prove that the two 45s add up to 90, but you wouldn't know if you had a 44 and a 46 though? Or am I missing something?......

The key is to keep the same face up and just rotate it about one corner ('A' in the sketch below), so you're doubling the angle of one corner - and if its the desired 45 degrees, then you'll match your 90 degree master square, if not the discrepancy will be magnified by a factor of two.

Annotated version of sketch attached.

Dave
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 09:10:25 AM by DMIOM »

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2015, 08:38:20 AM »
I would stick with something which equates to 5 or 10" which are normal Imperial sines.

They make things easier in the trig!

My 5" sine bar- I've just discovered is heavily corroded from when the roof came off my workshop( in Newcastle) Again, I have to find( if they are there) what my Jo blocks are doing. I got the Myford sorted out- without too much damage.

Anyhow, settle for multiples of 5 which are easy-er.

Regards

Norman

lordedmond

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2015, 09:18:45 AM »
Norman

With ref to sine bars first what language are your Jo blocks if they are inferior then by all means use a 5 inch sine bar the the Jo block stack would be in imp, but if like me you have metric Jo blocks then a 127 mm sine bar is needed
As then the answers would be in mm


To the OP

The level of truth that you are wanting is get is less that 1 arc second  if my brain cell is ok today but other will no doubt correct this and this is going to be tricky you will have to put a insulating handle on it to stop thermal changes .

How long have you had the material ageing they use to make Jo blocks down the road ,they used to bury the steel for a year befor use

Stuart
Good luck in your quest

Offline loply

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2015, 09:31:37 AM »
Dave - that's boggling my mind a bit! I'm still a bit unsure how I would know which way the error was, I'm sure it's possible I'm just getting confused  :hammer:

Having said that - I think I've just come up with a way of doing it which only requires one 45 degree part and the master square-

If I set up an indicator on the master square such that it's tip is about 10mm off the surface of the square, pointing downwards, and bring the 45 degree and butt it up against the master square such that the indicator reads off it's height (say about 10mm 'in' to the 45), note the indicator reading, then turn the 45 around and do the same on the other side. If it's not 45 the reading will be different, if it is 45 the reading should be the same.

It would then just be a case of scraping off whatever the error was from the 'high' side, and re-flatening the thing.


Offline loply

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2015, 09:34:45 AM »
This is what I mean:

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2015, 09:43:47 AM »
Both sine bar and Jo blocks are Imperial. Again, all my measuring tackle is Imperial.

Of course, I can work in Metric but my tools are also Imperial- apart from the Unimat clone. Just old fashioned, I guess.




Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2015, 09:46:06 AM »
This is what I mean:
If you make Two, you become parallel!

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #37 on: May 27, 2015, 10:03:38 AM »
Loply you don't need an indicator. An adjustable hard point will do. You just need contact both ways.

Besides, do you have an indicator that measures the 10 microns which is your goal?


The real question that has been missed all along, is not how to measure or get an angle, which you can do with many methods discussed and others as well, but how to rub and scrape it to that angle using contact methods, rather than measurement methods, which are the inevitable step in any mathematical determination of angle.

Sure, everyone knows Pythgoras theorem and owns a calculator, but once you've done the math how do you translate that without measuring? Sine bars and machined holes and pins are all measured somewhere along the production process -- whethere it is of the mill table calibration, mill tool size, mill movement, etc, and NONE of those are to my knowledge done to a 10 micron tolerance.

The whole essential of traditional hand scraping is a method which does not depend on measurement, but upon indicators of contact. We use math to do approximate work, and discard math in favor of contact and a contact indicator (blueing) to do extremely precise work.

I've already given a contact method which will, with a contact indictor, allow a person interested in a practical method, to scrape, and see non-contact areas. It will work as is.

I'm sure it could be improved upon (as most things can) with slight modifications to get work done more efficiently, though not necessarily more accurately. But most of what I'm reading here ignores the tolerance stated and the methods necessary to reach it. No system of measurement with a lower tolerance anywhere along the line of production will guarantee the tolerance required by the OP.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline DMIOM

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #38 on: May 27, 2015, 10:19:39 AM »
Dave - that's boggling my mind a bit! I'm still a bit unsure how I would know which way the error was, I'm sure it's possible I'm just getting confused  :hammer:

Having said that - I think I've just come up with a way of doing it which only requires one 45 degree part and the master square-

If I set up an indicator on the master square such that it's tip is about 10mm off the surface of the square, pointing downwards, and bring the 45 degree and butt it up against the master square such that the indicator reads off it's height (say about 10mm 'in' to the 45), note the indicator reading, then turn the 45 around and do the same on the other side. If it's not 45 the reading will be different, if it is 45 the reading should be the same.

It would then just be a case of scraping off whatever the error was from the 'high' side, and re-flatening the thing.

Rich - your indicator method doesn't (IMHO) make use of the full length - you're trying to make an ultra accurate measurement over a short span.

Have made another sketch to show how you would tell if one corner was too fat or too acute (the examples have 43&47 degree angles to make the differences visible)

Dave

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2015, 12:03:26 PM »
Steve's interesting observation etc raises the question of just how thick this thing is going to be.

Can you clear this up and tell us what tooling you have already for establishing your claims of accuracy.

Cheers

Norman

Offline loply

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2015, 12:22:09 PM »
Dave, thanks for that, I think I get it now.

I have some nice old cast iron which is about 22 or 23mm thick which I think I can cut up for it.

I made a thread some years ago about making my other scraping tools - it's here - http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=9039.0 they were made in 2012/2013 mainly from a large old milling cube which I cut up.

I bought a nice Mitutoyo indicator which has 2 micron increments at the time that I made those, the markings are quite nicely spaced so you can split an increment quite easily. Was expensive but I have lots of machines I intend to rescrape (ONE DAY!) so I figured I will use it over the next 20 years as I gradually do them all :D

Obviously it's no good measuring a scraped surface directly as the scrape marks are up and down, but I tend to lay a small ground parallel on top and measure off that. Even touching the parallel makes it bend though so I tend to lay things down then leave them to sit for a bit before taking the reading.

Probably the biggest limiter is my surface plate, the inspection report said that it varied by 0.3 microns from one corner to the other, but, it's an import and who knows how truthful that is.

Offline Fergus OMore

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Re: Checking a 45 degree square?
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2015, 12:46:59 PM »
Thank you- most impressive. I am sure that you will enjoy using your tools.

I'm afraid that my tooling is far more crude looking and I haven't 20 years left to improve things.

Enjoy

Norman