Files Ordered

[vtsteam]

I've been using the same 2 larger files for a few years -- trying to preserve them by using a grinder or lesser files on rough castings first, where necessary to get below sand and scale. My best file is used last, the duller of the two gets first dibs. But zinc alloy and brass work lately have pointed out the fact that it's probably time to move on to a new one.

My two most often used files are both big 14" flat double-cut Nicholson bastards, and not easily replaced, at least locally. Online prices seem to put similar files in the 25+ dollar range, even on Ebay, not including shipping, which in several ads brought the total to $40.

However, I was able to find a Nicholson catalog online, and through that, get a part number for the file. A new lookup on Ebay with that number found them available from Zoro tools for $14, plus free shipping if I made up a $50 order. So I plunked down for two of them. Looking through the Zoro products available I found a few useful items so I added a tube of Dykem Hi-Spot engineer's blue (for scraping), a bottle of Loctite 860, and a commercial size pack of JBWeld epoxy, all totalling almost exactly $50.

I realize files aren't the most glamorous shop tools to report here on the forum, but I sure can take a lot of metal off easily with those big files, and when dealing with castings they really make life eaasier. They also work extremely well for quickly bringing a surface to flat before final filing, scraping or finishing. Or conversely for rounding square corners with a few strokes.

I do use a lot of other kinds of files, and finer ones, too. But these are real workhorses in my tiny shop, and surprisingly versatile. They have also outlasted many other tools, though you'd think they'd dull quickly, considering what they have been used on. I do try to treat them well. I file in one direction. They hang from the wall, I clean then if needed (seldom since they are coarse) with a card.

Both my old files have a very slight bow, but I use this to good effect where needed to take off different parts of a surface, and where I want a true flat, I reverse them every few strokes, check frequently and adjust as needed. A common beginner mistake is to assume that flat files are true flat and just file away to finish hoping to flatten a part. When checked, disappointment sets in. Happened to me early on until I realized how to compensate.

Anyway, I'm kinda excited to get these in the mail. I know they will make a difference.



 

[RobWilson]

Nothing wrong with being in love with your files Steve 

What you need is one of these mate 




And make your own files ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I may have a bash at making one , I do fined the machine interesting ,not to mention its quality craftsmanship , probably forged ,chipped and filed .


Rob   

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

So, (1) card your files well & regularly and (2) chalk or oil them when working.  Having served my apprenticeship under an old German Guild Master (he was always addressed as Herr-Meister), I have somewhere in the close neighborhood of 350 lbs of files (and about 200 lbs of scrapers) in my tool chests.  I have had some success in recovering worn files using the sulfuric acid dip approach -- just enough success to keep me trying it when one gets truly worn.  [If that fails, the result gets placed in the scraper-source material box.]

Excepting the bench files that "live" at strategic locations around my shop, my files store are a set of (1/4 inch) masonite boxes with dividers that allow each file to "live" in its own slot.  The boxes are sized such that they fit in larger (hinged lid) boxes so that all my (say) 10 inch files live in (several of) the larger (and identified) boxes.  The larger boxes in turn "live" in a wheeled cabinet such that each has a pigeon hole that allows visibility of the identification and "pull-out" access.

After all, they were known as German milling machines during my apprenticeship days...

[awemawson]

A cheap and cheerful 'recovery' for an old file is to let it rust (degrease first to get a uniform rusting) then de-rust it in citric acid solution. This has the advantage of avoiding the sulphuric or nitric acid compounds often recommended which aren't too well behaved anyway about a workshop.

Most of my files each have a short length of plastic plumbing pipe to live in, fixed vertically in a shallow tray fixed to the wall behind my bench to stop them damaging each other

[Lew_Merrick_PE]

Most of my files each have a short length of plastic plumbing pipe to live in, fixed vertically in a shallow tray fixed to the wall behind my bench to stop them damaging each other

I used such an approach for storage until I realized there was not enough hanging space in my shop!

About half of my files have safe edges ground on them for tasks such a filing to a shoulder or filing dovetail slots.

One thing I miss is that there used to be companies (such as Portland File) that made true cylindrical files to standard diameters.  I only have a few left anymore...

[vtsteam]

Rob, would you make your own  version or would it be somewhat period, like the machine in the photograph? Or a replica?

Lew, interesting to hear of your experiences with your own files.

Andrew, I have never tried to restore a file before, but have heard of that or similar methods. Maybe I'll try it on my dullest 14" since I'll shortly have 4 of them. I have wondered how much rust people meant, since it could vary from a paintcoat overnight, to a year in the garden with pitting.

I guess it would depend on how fine a file it was, too. Mine are very coarse. I suppose that the way it works is to remove the surface of the teeth all over, first by rust, then by removing the rust.

Ideally there would be a way of attacking the tooth from the sides faster than the tip, Removing the tip would tend to dull it. Some slight (not total) resist method on the tip of the teeth might be more helpful than the stock method.

A recently used but old file would probably tend to have active removal happening more at the exposed metal tips than in the patinated valleys, which is the opposite of what is wanted, I think. Cleaning, definitely important, as you say.

[RobWilson]

Rob, would you make your own  version or would it be somewhat period, like the machine in the photograph? Or a replica?

I really like the original Steve and have a  pipe dream  about making a faithful copy , down to using only hand tools to make it  .


Grimshaw  Shop Kinks 1911   ISBN 4' 3"  1/8

File -Sharpening .  A propos of files and their work , it is strange that an American invention ,the sand- blast , has been taken hold of so well in England    and on the continent of Europe for file-sharpening , and seams to have been practically neglected on this side ,in the same connection . If you look at a new file you will find that there are on the ends of the teeth ,certain small-hooks , and these correspond to the wire edge  on a knife or a razor. Of course they are not desirable ; but there is no way of making file teeth with a chisel ,particularly if held by machine , without having these same hooks .
The sandblast cuts files without such wire edges ,and re-cuts old ones better than they can be done by hand; and many English  establishments have their new files given a little sand blasting before they are put into service ,the object being to give them a better cutting edge than the makers turn them out with .

May be worth a wee bit of experimentation . 


Rob

[Jonny]

Quality files are extremely hard to come by the last 11 years, nothing cuts or lasts as long nowadays even from same producers.
Used to get through a 3 sq 12" bastard every 3 days that would have lasted shy of two weeks.

Had loads of specialist files even S shaped, even modified brand new ones for one purpose.

Very true you will never file flat with a flat file, most have a belly to them.

Considering the rate we went through files and cost of the best files obtainable worldwide we tried several exercises in having them recut. Actual recuts tend to last 1hr to 6hrs that brand new lasted 3 days and 1/3 cost of new file.
Acid refurbing had a scrap rate of around 60%, the 40% returned you had to sift through to find one that cuts even though physically looked good ok for a couple of hours at best. In the 40% returned many had not got the sharp peaks, some even lost the sharp undercut looking like a series of roundovers typical with acids. ie certain areas will go before other areas, fine if its the undercut but not on cutting edge.

[Arbalist]

I don't use files as much as I used to but these look interesting.

https://www.dictum.com/en/tools/woodworking-metalworking/rasps-files/files-for-metal-working/704405/glardon-vallorbe-valtitan-flat-file-cut-0?ffRefKey=16PYV9Z9c

[Will_D]

So ignoring all the specialality shape(round, half round etc) lets consider a flat file:

Hand or flat files have two identical faces, the edges may be safe, square, or rounded.

My Grandad told me to put a blob of yellow paint on one of the faces. This face is ONLY used for brass or bronze. Other side is used for ferrous materials.

This can also be applied to other shapes within reason.

Also (as mentioned above) use chalk to stop "pinning", file card does what it says on the tin (or card)

I have also heard about chrome plating files to increase cut-ability and wear resistance!

[vtsteam]

Rob, I sure would dig watching you put that machine together, as would a whole lot of other people I bet!

I figured that forge and tools had some long term purpose, not just making coathooks, nor twisty garden gates! 

Of course, I know you still want to snort some coke up yer cupola in the near future, too, else why all those molding tools!  I'm expecting a lot of hot iron in your vicinity. 

re. files -- no sandblaster here, and breaking the wire edge is a new tool problem, methinks. I think Jonny's telling the real story, and don't hold out much hope for an acid or rust re-sharpening trick. But it's always fun to do something new with tools and who knows, I might get lucky.

I might just try getting the thinnest possible resist on the cutting tips before an acid dip -- outta my usual curiosity

Will, yellow paint on one file, but on both sides, and another unpainted for for ferrous would be better -- like I said, and Jonny too, files don't have identical sides because of the slight curve -- one side convex, one concave. At least most of my big ones don't. I use both sides at different times, and often alternate between them. Small files may be okay painted one side, and particularly if used for shaping instead of flattening. 

Arbalist -- looks like they are intent on producing high quality specialty stuff. Good to see. 

[RobWilson]

It sure would be a canny project Steve ,,,,bollocks to garden gates       ,,,,,,,,,,,, I would need to nip back to Paris (not a bad thing lol) to take a few more photos  ,unless I have a drawing of it already .

And it would give me a lot of forging practice  , so much        , aye the old cupola needs to be  finishing,  I have a good 200 kgs of coke ready for the beast ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I bet its easier for you to score some Columbian marching powder than get    some crispy black rock Steve ,,,,,,,,probably cheaper 



Rob 

[vtsteam]

Already have a drawing of that file machine? Holy cow that would be a heck of a drawing! But I bet you'll be the first to draw it,
Hey if you do go back to take photos, also take a movie as you walk around, and zoom in and out a lot. I've found that really helpful in measuring and drawing things, besides the stills. Most movie player software can turn any frame into a jpeg, too. Though with less detail than a true photo. But you often get angles you forgot to photograph from, and you can see the 3D-ness (not a real word, I know) of pieces, and connections.

I think you have fancy CAD software and it probably does the same, but one feature of Sketchup I like is the ability to import a photo, scale it, and measure or trace over it, then hide it. I do that a lot.

Rob, did they harden the steel after they cut the file -- hard to imagine otherwise, but then how did they avoid burning the tips of the tiny teeth, and prevent scale? They must have had some highly experienced heat treatment guys on files, and probably some special tricks.

I have used soap to reduce scale when hardening -- I wonder if there are other tricks they used?

I'll take the black variety of cupola food, but you're right, probably no cheaper and harder to find! 

Still thinking on anthracite with some kind of heated blast -- that's the hard part.

[S. Heslop]

From a video I watched they heat treated rasps in a salt bath. Sharpened them with a sandblast after that.

I need some rasps and i've been considering trying to make them myself. It seems fairly staight-forwards aside from heat treating and sharpening. I need a sand blast cabinet in the near future and it's a good excuse to set one up.

[Arbalist]

You might find the video on this page interesting then.

http://www.hand-stitched-rasp-riffler.com

[S. Heslop]

"It takes 2 years to learn how to hand stitch." Yeah sure looks like a hell of a skill, whacking a chisel.

[vtsteam]

From a video I watched they heat treated rasps in a salt bath. Sharpened them with a sandblast after that.

But did they do that in the period of the file machine Rob is interested in? From the looks of it I'm guessing nineteenth century. Or earlier? That's what I was curious about.

[Arbalist]

This French one is C 1700 apparently.

[vtsteam]

Wow, Arbalist, And it looks modern in comparison!

The first is an amzing example of blacksmith art. This one of engineering, at such an early period.

If someone turns up a sand blaster for files from the 1700s, then that would answer my question of how they heat treated and preserved sharpness. Just showing a big set of bellows isn't fair...was that actually how they did it? Or was there another way used.....

ps. I bet a lot of the above file making machine was shaped with files!

[Arbalist]

Perhaps it was, I wonder when the milling machine was invented?

[vtsteam]

I was wondering what that onion shaped ball at the left end of the leadscrew was. I now think it is a decorative captsan to take removable tommy bars, and it tightens the pointed pivot that serves as a bearing for the leadscrew. Most of the bearings thoughout the machine seem to be pointed pivots, with a locking lever screw (often brass and with curved hande).

I love the big thumbscrews and wingnut. A hundred times handier than the cheap stampings available today. And better looking, too. 

[Arbalist]

I'd love to see it in operation, if only on some soft steel.

[RobWilson]

This French one is C 1700 apparently.

Where did you fined that photos ?  dont think that machine is from the  1700 ,could be mistaken


Rob

[RobWilson]

Steve , the photo of the machine I have shown is from 1700 - 1800  is the best I can get from the museum site , it was added to their collection in 1849 .

Materials : Steel , Wood and Iron  ,,,,,,,,,,, weight 58Kg .

Looking through a Leonardo da Vinci book I have there is a drawing of a file cutting machine he designed in 1480 ,,,,



,,,,, and now  I remember seeing the actual LdV drawing in Venice a few years back . 

I can see what I can find about the ye oldie file making process 


Rob

[vtsteam]

Wow, Rob, that's going back some!

Leonardo was at times more of an armchair engineer than a buider, amazing though he was in all of his accomplishments.
That looks to be at leaast a 4 foot long file, by the scale of the other parts, The base weighed tons if stone, and I doubt it was solid wood, the rest is pretty rickety looking,

The weight, which acts like those on a clock to turn the spindle, looks way too small for lifting the hammer on the long lever arm it has, compared to the very small spindle -- I'm not sure he's got a good grasp of mechanical advantage here! Those sawhorse-like legs better be bolted down or the whole near end will lift up. That leadscrew is pretty massive for even a 4 foot long file -- a bit overbuilt compared to his stocks.

I'm thinking he'll probably need a plan B after trials 

(don'we all!  )