Author Topic: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt  (Read 31645 times)

Offline picclock

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picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« on: October 18, 2015, 03:58:24 AM »
I want the possibility of home printing accurate parts in Polycarbonate, Peek, and Nylon, Abs and Pla along with flexible plastics becoming available. Perhaps a mod to print for lost wax (plastic ?) casting. Also for metal plating plastic parts using either conductive plastic or coating them with a conductive surface. I have seen a mods available for using it (i3) as a mill with a dremel (bit iffy IMHO). I just want a no nonsense printer where I can move the head and see very little error in scale and repeatability(<2 thou max if poss), with high accuracy for producing usable parts.

Why a prusa i3 ?. Popular printer, open source Cartesian design, all parts readily available. Fully customisable head/bed and parameters for all sorts of materials. Cheap to construct.  Mature electronics/software easily serviceable without breaking the bank. Stand alone to print from SD card, via USB (Arduino 2560) or  Wi Fi  remote controllable using rpi and octoprint to monitor progress with any web configured device e.g. phone/tablet or desktop, including video output via webcam.

Why not a kit ? My take on it is that too many things about the kit designs (and prusa i3 in general) are inadequate for accurate smooth motion 3d printing. Mechanical conflicts in the design leading to poor performance and unsmooth axis movements. As an example, the X axis is a whole world of problems. The std design uses 4 lm8uu bearings and two fixed 8mm smooth rods. With just bearings and rod the bearings move smoothly and are a good fit. When clipped into the x carriage with a single rod major binding occurs. This is because the axial alignment is poor leading to binding with just one pair of bearings installed. The rods are not parallel, and the bearing spacing on the X carriage is different to the rod spacing, due to manufacturing tolerances. So moving the carriage is bending the rods.  Additionally the X belt tensioner exerts force on the vertical z rods basically bending them to tension the belt  :drool:.

Changes I intend include a solid mounting base (old granite kitchentop) to keep all axis in a fixed relationship, alterations in mechanical design to improve accuracy and stability (~ many kit parts would be unused), longer LM8LUU linear bearings replace bearing pairs to improve accuracy (no axial misalignment of pairs) and movement smoothness, upgraded stepper controllers (DRV8825 with 2*z drivers), higher voltage (24v) for steppers/bed and head giving better acceleration, with smoother control for the steppers and allowing the use of thinner flexible leads. A different heated bed configuration will precisely locate the bed glass and enhance thermal contact to the heater board, whilst cork insulation will improve warm up time and upper temperature. A moving bowden filament feed configuration to reduce the moving load on the X axis (weight of filament feed and motor is ~450 gms). I will use std prusa plastic parts where possible but upgrade to machined equivalents where design changes indicate.

Electronics using Arduino2560 R3, with Ramps 1.4 board, and graphic controller card, Marlin software, all powered by the usb cable.

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline nrml

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2015, 05:51:18 AM »
Can I suggest the following.

1. Acme lead screws for the Z axis - cheap and readily available on ebay. You can even order stepper motors with a long lead screw shaft built onto the motor to avoid flexible couplings.

2. Oilite bushings instead of LM8UUs. You can press them into a housing while mounted on the smooth rod to get a very accurate fit. I believe they are designed to 'remould' to fit the shaft when pushed into a suitable sized hole. They are less than 90p each.

3. Consider upgrading the Y axis and Z axis smooth rods to 10mm for greater rigidity.

4. Consider using these clamps to hold your smooth rods to the granite bed and Z axis frame http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SK10-Bracket-10mm-Linear-Rail-Shaft-Rod-Support-CNC-3D-Printer-SH10A-SK-10-/161839456593?var=&hash=item25ae622151:m:mzab4ZAhkOQPY6TBTK2-zJQ  They will simplify your build for not much expense.

5. Consider a 240V silicone bed heater and SSR instead of the popular MK2 and Mk3.

6. Consider using these http://www.aliexpress.com/item/3D-printer-accessories-2GT-20-teeth-synchronous-wheel-pulley-wheel-Perlin-passive-idler-pulley-wheel-bore/32368752009.html instead of the usual bearing and washer arrangement.

If you want to print reliably using materials other than PLA and ABS, an enclosed chamber (or even better - a heated chamber) is almost essential, which lends itself better to a corexy / Hbot or Delta design. I hope you don't mind if I chip in with other ideas / suggestions when I remember them.




Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2015, 09:49:53 AM »
Hi nmrl

In answer to your points.
1 I see no advantage over the M5 threaded stainless studding - if I encounter issues I will change but I intent to keep it for the moment. Not sure how they make it but its not rolled and seems to be very accurate pitch wise.
2 I have done testing with the linear bearings and am very satisfied with the performance. I have also found some advantage to using 3 in 1 lithium spray grease for their lubrication.
3 Had already considered 10 or 12 mm - but will see how it works out as std. Looks good atm. As I will be using a much lighter bed and bowden type filament feed the loads on the shafts will be less than normal.
4 Already making clamps. My clamp design will allow adjustment in all axis and I will use this to level the bed. Will show drawing with pictures later.
5 Considered it. Not happy with mains around. Std bed heater should be OK.
6 Not sure I see any advantage to this over the std bearing method. If I have issues will alter it as I have spare gt2 pulleys I could bore for a bearing.

Have many other alterations to the std design which should improve precision and performance. Of course some of the ideas I have may not pan out, however time will tell.

Best Regards

picclock

Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline nrml

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2015, 01:05:43 PM »
I find that the fit between M5 nuts and studding is very loose. I think there is a tiny bit of Z axis wobble where the nut rocks on the studding. I find that is not bad enough to ruin a print or even make it look bad on initial examination but it irks me that it can be seen on close scrutiny.

My experiences with cheap linear bearings have been bad. They have been rough running even with grease, noisy, had a lot of play and they scratch the supposedly hardened smooth rods.  Again, it doesn't seem to affect print quality too much mainly because I have tightened the Y axis belt as much as possible to compensate for the poor fit and I print at slow speeds.

My hypothesis is that a toothed idler, toothed driving pulley and a tight GT2 belt is likely to behave like a worm gear drive, possibly improving positional accuracy. When I tighten the belt up really tight, I can see the teeth on the belt getting squashed against the idler bearing. This wouldn't happen with a toothed idler. I can't say for sure if this would actually make a difference or not but it is a cheap mod.

All these are minor niggles, but I hope to address these issues when I rebuild mine in future.

I am looking forward to seeing your adjustable clamps.

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2015, 05:10:24 PM »
Good to see you getting started picclock!  :clap:

Will read carefully with great interest on your findings along the way.

nrml, your comments both here and in my thread are valuable! Will see what I can apply to my build along the way.  A few mods are already on the list. 

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2015, 02:30:20 PM »
OK next installment. Pictures of the adjustable y axis rod mounts, also picture of a budget (99p) adjustable buck convertor. This will allow me to run the 12 volt fans and power the Arduino board from a 24V supply. Proposed design (pdf) for the print bed minimising weight. 

More pictures and progress as soon as I get time.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 02:33:46 PM »
A little progress. Y belt tensioner and motor mount. The vertical belt alignment from drive to bed to idler seems quite critical if accuracy is to be maintained. Even small errors may cause belt stretching which will erode the accuracy. Simple spring belt tensioner with scrap will make system more forgiving.

Next episode the bed  :dremel:

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline nrml

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 03:40:23 PM »
That is a very nice tensioner. Dare I say a bit over engineered, but then the very best things are always over engineered :thumbup:.

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2015, 05:01:22 PM »
picclock; Nice bits well made  :thumbup:

You are on your way now, will be nice to see it come together.

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2015, 02:37:10 PM »
So i have finally finished the parts for the bed. Pictures tell the story. I have high hopes for light weight, accurate tracking and good precision. The glass looks red in the pictures because that's the back of the mirror coating.

First the belt to mirror clamp. This clamps onto the end 10mm of the bed glass, based on an engineers type clamp. I was concerned about lack of grip but I statically tested it to over 5Kg then pushed probably at least another 5. The clamp is very good.

Next the bearing carriers. These are made of 1/16th fiberglass,  The two bearings aligned on a smooth rod then epoxied to the carrier. Surfaces were roughened and high temperature epoxy used. The bearings were aligned so that the 4 internal races were at 45degrees to the vertical to ensure accurate tracking when weight is applied. The single bearing and carrier float to become self aligning. Approx 2mm of lateral movement is allowed.

Full bed assembly showing heater pcb. This will be covered with 2mm of cork to decrease heat loss. Clip handles will be removed when in use.

Next installment drilling the granite worktop .

Thanks for your interest

Best Regards

picclock



Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline nrml

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2015, 04:25:00 PM »
How is the heated bed attached to the linear guide assembly ?

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2015, 05:44:23 PM »
Hi nmrl

The heated bed is attached to the glass with clips as per normal, as shown in the picture.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2015, 05:01:54 AM »
Hi picclock,

The bits are coming together nicely! Following with great interest!

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline nrml

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2015, 03:31:10 PM »
Sorry I meant to ask how it was attached to the bearing linear rod assembly. Is it glued on to the little fibreglass boards or just clipped on? I can't quite figure it out from the picture.

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2015, 05:25:25 AM »
Hi nmrl
The twin bearings are epoxied to a fibreglass carrier, and the glass is clipped to that. The single bearing is located in an open top 'box' which constrains axial movement but allows radial movement. Its only function is to maintain an accurate distance above the smooth rod. Gravity and the glass weight should keep it in place but for convenience I will fashion a clip, probably out of piano wire.  So the twin bearing smooth rod will control x,y,and z about the axis, And the single bearing is just responsible for the z component.

This leaves the glass easily swappable, with the only snag being the possible collision of head and belt clamp if not set up correctly. The distance between the smooth rod centres was changed to 230mm to facilitate this, also giving greater lateral stability.

Best Regards

picclock



 
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2015, 11:55:28 AM »
Just an update on drilling granite worktop. Bought some cheapo diamond core bits (9mm, 5 for £4-50) and some 25mm m5 threaded spacers. Marked up granite top to layout I had worked out earlier using sticky labels. Made a dam with plasticene and filled with water, then using and ancient pillar drill I had got busy with the boring. I slipped some neoprene rubber sheeting under the drill to stop movement, and it all went fairly well. On one hole I managed to break right through but the rest were ok. I found it quite hard to get the remains of the core out of the blind hole.

I tried various epoxys for fixing the spacers on the non critical stuff and found permabond steel offered the best characteristics, although the setting time proved unpredictable, so I could only do one at a time. Tried two and ended up drilling it out  :wack:. The spacers were fitted with a nylon screw fully inserted. Under the head of the screw was an M5 type c washer and another washer I had made out of ptfe gasket material. Once the epoxy was mixed a suitable 'dollop' was put into the hole followed by the spacer/screw assembly. This was pushed down until the washer was resting on the surface of the granite. I used the pillar drill as a weight while it set. After 10-12 mins, the epoxy had hardened but not fully. At this point I removed the nylon screw and the washers, and used a sharp blade to clean up all the excess epoxy which had squeezed out of the hole.  This seems to be an easy way to get the spacers flush to the granite top.

Once completed I mounted the smooth rods and brackets for the y axis and printer bed. It seems to work very well, with nice smooth travel. The rod heights were set with a spacer block I machined to 36mm, giving a rod center of 40mm. The spacer was placed under the rod next to the support bracket, and the adjustment screws tightened whilst applying pressure on the rod. This technique enables easy, accurate setting height of all 4 ends, within quite tight tolerances ~1thou difference measured.

Gantry and X axis next time. Thanks for your interest.

Best Regards

picclock

« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 12:30:38 PM by picclock »
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2016, 04:45:46 AM »
Interesting 3d printed digital sundial http://i.imgur.com/z0N3dFY.gif . I wish I had been clever enough to think of this. OTOH we don't get much sun in the UK  :palm:.

The gantry is mounted at the base with angle iron and supported at the top by two pieces of M10 studding. This allows fine tuning of the vertical and horizontal axis with respect to the Y axis rails. I had originally planned to use triangular braces to set the vertical right angle but in the end I decided on this method as simpler to implement and adjust. Even so, I threaded the base mounts at the wrong angle (both 3.5 degrees out  :scratch:), still don't know how that came about but easily resolved. As drilling the granite is a bit of a job I made the decision to get the rest of the holes done in one go.

This led me to constructing the carrier for the Aruino/Ramps/buck convertor boards. I then needed to find out if I would need stepper driver heatsinks and a cooling fan. This led me to setting up the system and setting the driver current. The drv8825 driver chips, with 0.1 ohm current sensing resistors have a reference voltage gain of 5. So 1 amp of winding current will need a reference voltage of 0.5V. This can be set using the small trimpot and measuring the wiper voltage using a metal screwdriver and a crocodile clip lead. The reference voltage range is up to 3v or so, even though the useful maximum is 1.25V, making the setting more difficult. I intend to run the motors at 1.5A so X,Y,and Extruder setting will be 0.75V. As the Z axis requires two motors and as the driver current is limited, 2.5A or 1.25A per motor, requiring a reference voltage of 1.25V. This assumes that the motors are connected in parallel (the normal configuration), although there would be minimal downside to running them in series, just slower movement speed.  The chips have a thermal trip which operates if the junction temperature exceeds 150C. Temperature measurements indicate that a fan is essential but that the heatsinks only reduced the junction temperature 10C or so. Measurements were made with an infrared thermometer, and via a thermocouple to the underside base pad. For the Z axis driver with its much higher current, the small heatsink would not be adequate so I have decided to machine one up from some aluminium scrap.  If this works well I may make heatsinks for the other 3 drivers, just to be kind to them  :wave: .   

Y Axis testing and X axis assembly up next.

Thanks for looking

Best Regards

picclock

Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2016, 01:15:27 PM »
Looking good so far picclock!  :thumbup:

Any advancements lately??

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2016, 07:01:00 AM »
Hi Peter
Am currently in Cairo on holiday, hence no updates. Am flying back today. Very poor internet here, though quite good at this hotel. Am looking forward to seeing your build progress and latest achievements - plastic parts soon I hope :-)
Will update build log in due course, mistakes and all.
Best Regards
Picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2016, 01:41:56 PM »
Hi picclock,

I see, hope you have had a nice vacation without too much rain and wind.

Will be interesting to see how far you have come.

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2016, 12:23:45 PM »
Just an interim update on progress so far. Z Axis driver overtemperature could rise to over 120C above ambient (see piccy with std heatsink and fan blowing directly onto it). Tests were done using a mobile phone and octopi over the local wifi  network. Seems to work very well. Max temperature is achieved when one winding only is driven, a condition which occurs at full step positions. I think max t occurs because localised heating causes the fet resistance to increase, and power is I2R.

Three possible solutions occur. Use a separate driver for each z motor. Marlin will allow the second extruder motor to do this, but I want to keep this option for feeding carbon fiber loaded filament at strategic locations. Second option is to connect the motors in series. This will keep the driving current the same as a single motor but halve the maximum running speed/acceleration. Quite a good solution, but I opted for better chip heatsinking with a homemade heatsink, see piccys. This reduced the max temperature change by 40C allowing good margins for normal operation.

Bed heater preparation was made by fixing cork sheet to the back of the pcb using a high temp silicon glue. The board connections were made with flexible silicon wire, soldered in place, ensuring the top surface remained flat. The thermal sensor was also affixed using high temp silicon. I have little faith  that the glass temperature will accurately reflect the sensor temp, as only the top of the sensor is in contact with the glass, the rest being pulled toward the temp of the surrounding pcb. Depending on performance I may opt to change this for a clip on thermocouple attached directly to the glass surface.

In my final y axis preparation I made a new idler pulley with a slightly smaller diameter. In order to ensure concentricity between the outer and inner parts of the pulley I bored the inner to take the bearings. I always find small hole boring tricky because I never have the correct boring bar size. So I used a two flute endmill, axially offset by one or two degrees to ensure that just the tip cuts, a neat dodge I have used before.

Thanks for looking

Best Regards

picclock.
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2016, 05:14:55 PM »
Hi picclock,

Coming together nicely  :thumbup:

Your "extended" heatsink for the drivers are quite a lot larger than the standard small ones. They will definately do good work. Reworked pats from a larger heatsink or your own design?

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2016, 02:40:05 AM »
Hi PeterE

I think design is too strong a word  :dremel:. Measured available space on ramps board and dug around scrap box for something close. Ended up with piece 27.5x23.6.x13.6mm. cut 3mm wide grooves to suit with stack of slitting saws. Only hidden detail is that contact pad (10.5x7mm) connecting to chip is raised 0.8mm to ensure hs did not touch connections on board.

Original hs surface area around 200 mm2. New hs area around 3400mm2. Original hs only affects chip temp by around 10C even when blown.

Best Regards

picclock

Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2016, 04:14:57 AM »
Hi. Just a few pictures of the X Axis belt tensioner and idler. This uses the two horizontal smooth rods to generate force against to maintain belt tension. It is effectively decoupled from the z axis rod as the plastic support allows the horizontal rods to slide smoothly. The X axis smooth rods were drilled at the end and an extension piece of 5mm dia bar were inserted. The original plastic part was altered as shown. The adjuster arrangement slightly increases the available x carriage movement. 

Spring is 11T of 1.2mm piano wire wound at 2.5mm pitch on a 6mm rod to allow tension adjustment up to 4Kgs. Max motor rating is 2.8Kgs at 20mm from motor flange.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2016, 08:22:02 AM »
A little more progress. Pictures of installed X tensioner and belt, with extruder mounted. As soon as I get acceptable prints I will replace the extruder, and at a later date install a bowden type version as this will reduce the load on the X axis. Made a neat bracket for mounting the X limit uswitch. Also made a mess of the cooling fan shroud as it hits the X carriage as it descends. Its about 17mm too high so I think a redesign is likely the best approach.

Best Regards

picclock


Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2016, 03:43:20 PM »
Looking good! Will be interesting to hear your experiences of the build. You have a number of neat solutions of which some will be on my list for improvements.

I hava also been thinking a bit about the extruder, I have the Wades version a bit like yours, but not completely. With the stepper it is a quite heavy bit to be carried by two 8mm bars. Moving the feed to the portal and having a PTFE tube leading down to the hot end would relieve the X carriage of some weight.

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2016, 04:35:12 AM »
Hi PeterE

>>With the stepper it is a quite heavy bit to be carried by two 8mm bars. Moving the feed to the portal and having a PTFE tube leading down to the hot end would relieve the X carriage of some weight.

Thats my opinion also. One of the issues with Bowden feeds is that the longer the feed and the more that it bends the greater the likelihood of the filament buckling/jamming. I have in mind to limit the range of bowden movement by supporting the extruder drive above the centre of the X carriage whilst connecting it to the Z bar supports. This would make it a constant height above the head enabling a much shorter bowden length.

Re the weight on all the axis. The heavier and stiffer it is to move, the lower the accuracy will be. That is why I am driving the motors closer to the rating. If you think of the motor as a spring, the further it deviates from its intended position the larger the force needed to move it. But this means that for small deviations only a low force is needed. By increasing the motor current the spring is made stronger and better accuracy/repeatability more achievable. Obviously, this only applies within any given motor true step, typically 1/200th of a revolution.

I will also incorporate a servo mount for auto bed levelling on the upgraded extruder, so at best what I have is very much a work in progress. One of the things not shown in the photographs is the X bearings. The top one is twice as long as the std prusa ones, and the lower single std one is allowed to float about the z axis, thus all things are true to the top bar.

Looking forward to seeing your printer up and running.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2016, 04:12:18 AM »
Hi All
Things have moved on a bit since last post.

The bed wiring is now complete, with it passing through the belt attachment for the glass bed. When fully operational one of the first things I will print is cable chains for the X and Y axis. The cork is attached to the heater pcb with a high temp silicon adhesive, and this in turn is attached to the glass with clips as shown.

The Z limit switch is sorted, and the Y axis switch fitted. The Z limit switch is one I reused from a scrapped photocopier. Although it is push to make, (default is push to break so that wiring integrity is maintained) the accuracy and repeatability are better than I can measure. I put one of them in my mill vice, connected to a beeping continuity meter and used the Z digital readout to detect the point of switch actuation. The reading at the switch point was exactly the same, so its easily as good as 0.5 thou of travel. Picture with simple mounting and adjuster below.

The distance between the print head and bed is an important setting to ensure the correct adhesion of the first level of plastic. Having powered it up, I was able to set this to 0.05mm, by adjusting the screw and re homing the axis. Once the left side was complete I manually adjusted the right side to the same gap. I intend to automate the bed levelling process by using a servo and a limit switch, parts on order. 

Next, the filament feed calibration. This is achieved by simply marking a piece of filament and telling the extruder to extrude a given distance. For this I removed the extrusion nozzle and set the minimum extrusion temp to 1C in the Marlin firmware. I had an extrusion rate figure from the internet, taking account of the different gear ratios, and in an unusual stroke of good fortune this proved to be exactly correct. I extruded 100mm, and exactly 100mm was extruded :thumbup:

So for a trial print. I thought I would try the blue tape adhesion method first with some hair spray to help things along. I loaded up a new reel of blue ABS filament, sliced the design for a cable chain link in cura, and dropped the file into the octoprint browser window. Had a quick think to see if I had missed anything, then clicked the print button. The bed started to warm to its final temperature (100C), once reached the print head quickly warmed up to its operational temp (230C), and the process commenced. I was very impressed with the fine detail of the outline and its accuracy. All seemed to be going well, with the first layer going down but after 4 or 5 layers the parts started to warp and come off of the bed, at which point I cancelled the print.

I thought I would try to improve the bed adhesion using abs juice so attempted to make some from the scrap printed parts and filament dissolved in acetone. I left this for several hours but was surprised to find that it had not dissolved, in fact was not even sticky. I took a piece of known ABS and dunked it and it went sticky almost immediately.  :scratch: I was thinking that I had been supplied with the wrong filament type, so I checked out a roll of conductive abs filament, which I had ideas about using for plated items. In doing so I came across the original carton which clearly showed that my blue abs was in fact nylon, and further checking of the order indicated this was exactly as ordered. Its a terrible thing getting old .. . :loco:

I have ordered some other colours of abs and hope to show some first printed parts soon. I may have a go using the conductive abs, but this is far from typical due to the carbon loading, so will not be too good for calibration. The white roll of PLA I have may be useful for testing or prototyping but not very good for calibration or working parts.

I also think that it would be a good idea to fabricate an enclosure to maintain an even, elevated temperature throughout the printing process, as this would minimise warping.

Thanks for your interest

Best Regards

picclock



Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2016, 05:11:32 PM »
Looking really good picclock  :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

I was given the tip to use a dab of acetone at each corner of a beginning print to make it stick better to the build plate. That should be enough I believe. I will use one of those cottonbulbs on sticks (whatever they are called in english) to get that necessary small amount. Of course that means that I will be using ABS most of the time anyway.

The daughter is now nicely installed in her new apartment so time for shop activities is in sight  :drool:

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline awemawson

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2016, 05:22:41 PM »
Cotton-bud  :thumbup:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2016, 03:22:51 PM »
Aha, thank you Andrew, good to know. In Sweden they normally go under their brand name which is Tops.
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Offline tom osselton

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2016, 04:13:52 PM »
Q tips here.

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2016, 03:27:28 AM »
Hi All

Thanks for your kind comments PeterE. How would you know where to put the dabs of acetone to hold it down? With a heated bed I would imagine it would evaporate very quickly, and when printing multiple items would be very difficult. Supposedly, with abs juice (a mixture of acetone and abs) you can just wipe the bed over and the job is done.

Picture below of my first print (PLA). On the whole, not too bad. Its the right shape and reasonably concentric. Surface finish is very good, better than I expected. Its all slightly undersized, likely due to shrinkage.

Measuring the 1st step up from the bottom i get 19.75 at the narrowest point and 19.90 at the widest, so about 0.15mm out of round, and 0.18mm too small. Part of this may be because the slicers define a circle as a multisided polygon, and the number of sides will affect the circles concentricity. The steps narrow slightly in the middle before coming out again at the top. The step heights are pretty good, at 5mm +-.05, which is impressive for two bits of M5 studding.

The top pillar is nbg, as the plastic did not have time to harden before the next layer was added. The slicing was done with Cura, with its recommended temp setting of 210 for PLA. Other users recon from 160 upwards so it may be too high. Also Cura allows the setting of a pause time between layers for the plastic to harden, so I may well experiment with that.   

Unfortunately, PLA is just not suitable for the things I need to make, mainly because of its low temperature softening, so I will have to wait until the abs arrives.

Thanks for your interest.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2016, 04:48:50 PM »
The tip I was given on putting a dab of acetone to "glue" the print to the bed was to do it when the "skirt" is laid and then dab in "four corners" of course regardless if the object is round or not. It would evaporate quickly, but I don't think quickly enough to not glue the part to the bed plate. My own experiments will tell.

When it comes to temperature I have underrstood it so that the range given by the maker of the filament is the appropriate range, and I would start at the lower end to begin with. This to get a good bond between layers but still easy enough to spread. I guess this is one of the things that even may be different from machine to machine as the machine placement could affect the surrounding temp.

Making a box around it would make that easier to control, and you would get a chance to make an "exhaust" to guide the print fumes out of the room to keep it healthier.

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline Pete49

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #34 on: March 11, 2016, 10:04:32 PM »
I have found the best glue to use is cheap hairspray :lol: It sticks ABS and PLA well and when it cools the items lift off. I put on 3-4 coats then refresh it every few prints. This is on a heated glass bed though.
Pete
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Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2016, 02:36:53 AM »
Hi PeterE, Pete49. Thanks for your thoughts. I will certainly try those ideas next time I am printing.

Because my printer is in the garage, and I am in the office, I need a way to power up and program the printer remotely. I am using octoprint with a raspberry pi, and this can be modded to allow other control outputs, for remote power on/off and camera on/off. Then I will be able to print stuff remotely, check how its doing, and if necessary, power off the printer. To this end I have designed a very small pcb to attach to the pi to drive a solid state relay and camera on/off with a spare output for stuff I have forgotten. I will start a thread in the electronics section for this.

@ PeterE

Hope you manage to get your printer sorted soon.  Looking forward to seeing it in operation. Mine just looks like a pile of bits ATM because I am waiting for the abs to print the parts which will finish it off. I have just received a servo for bed levelling/probing, and I will incorporate this into the extruder assembly design when I print a new one. It does seem the best way to go.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2016, 05:57:40 PM »
Hi picclock,

My printer will get its attention from tomorrow when all reamining small bits of supporting work is done to get my daughter happy in her new apartment.

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2016, 03:14:51 PM »
 Hi. So I have designed and completed my little RPi addon pcb - see http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,11358.0.html. Octopi now sports two extra on off options on the system menu to control the power for the printer and webcam. So all appeared to be going well. The abs filament has arrived and I made some abs juice to try out as per web instructions. Fired up the printer with the intent to print some cable chains to try to sort out the mess of wires. Dropped the sliced Gcode file onto octopi and hit print. Then about 5 mins later as the bed was warming up there was a loud crack and the mirror bed had self destructed. :scratch: From the pattern of the break it looks like it may have been caused by differential expansion of the glass - it occurred at around 85C - see picture. Was not expecting that. Glass was 2mm, which may be a bit thin.  No other mechanical stresses on the glass. Looking at the odd fracture pattern it could be that the centre warmed and expanded more quickly that the outer edge.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2016, 05:33:40 PM »
picclock,

Ahh, too bad when such things happen ...

The glass for my bed is a 200mm square piece of borosilicate glass around 3mm thick, so thicker than yours but can also handle higher temperatures. Borosilicate glass is the same type used in some oven-proof bowls and dishes for pies etc. It may be so that the mirror glass is basically ordinary glass with less temperature range and together with the variation of temperature it could crack easier. This is just a guess though.

Another thing is that I hold the glass plate to the heatbed with just four clips, one in each corner, that will also slightly lessen the clamping forces if the bed warps or twists during heating.

My 2 cents ...

Good work so far, keep the good tempo up!  :thumbup:

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline Will_D

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2016, 07:07:52 PM »
I have found the best glue to use is cheap hairspray :lol:

IIRC the largest/bigest aerosol can I ever did see was for a "cheap" Hairspray

Also good as a "non insecticida/non chemical" fly spray.
Engineer and Chemist to the NHC.ie
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Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2016, 02:48:48 AM »
@PeterE

Thanks for your interest. Hope your daughter is now settled and work can progress on your printer.

The glass that cracked on mine was only held by the 4 clips at the sides. The end clips hold the bed heater to the glass. The fittings that touch the glass underside are all fibreglass to act as a heat break. Borosilicate is without doubt an improvement, but have also read about that breaking, not sure what the mechanism for that could be. Several things spring to mind. It may be that adding an insulating layer to the top at warmup would cause the heat to be more evenly distributed, the layer could be removed prior to start of printing. An aluminium heat spreader under the glass could improve heat transfer. Alternately a slower warmup period would allow the heat to spread more evenly. Thicker glass would also help by increasing the heat conduction path to the outer edges. If I can get hold of some borosilicate glass I have no doubt that would also improve things, but I doubt it will be easily available.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2016, 01:06:27 PM »
Yes, now the lass is in place in her first own apartment  :ddb:

I got a glass sheet similar to this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Geeetech-Borosilicate-Glass-for-Heatbed-MK2-MK2A-of-3D-Printer-Reprap-Mendel-/221661533512?hash=item339c0e9548:g:srgAAOSw-W5UtPEE and at about the same price but from a local seller in Sweden. It is 3mm thick which increases its strenght quite a bit and it evens out the temp spread as well.

Just have to get my foot in order after spraining the ankle carrying furniture bits down some stairs  :palm: Work will proceed during the coming weekend.

/Peter

Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2016, 04:40:15 AM »
Hi. I have managed to print some usable bits but things have been difficult. I replaced the mirror glass with some 4mm glass liberated from a skip behind a window shop (with there blessing). I heated it to 115C and all seemed fine, but after the first print it had cracked again  :palm:. prior to the print I had been monitoring the temperatures with a thermocouple type thermometer. The nozzle temp was exactly correct - quite impressive really. However the bed temp is all over the place. The centre area, on the surface of the glass was about 95-98C measured, however an inch or two from the edge it had fallen to 55C or so. With that kind of temperature gradient over a couple of inches I am not surprised the internal stresses caused issues.  Also as the bed moves small distances cold air is pushed onto the edges but the centre always has warm air, exacerbating the thermal gradient.

So I have thought of several fixes which will hopefully improve the situation. Firstly, use an aluminium heat spreader directly above the heater below the glass (will try 1mm as I have it around). In the centre area of this I could put some kapton tape to further reduce the centre temperature and increase the heat to the outer edges. Secondly, I could fit an air dam around the bed, basically just a 25mm high strip of an insulating material, which will prevent cold air from reaching the outer areas so readily when the bed moves. Thirdly, a form of enclosure to prevent external drafts from having an effect. If I'm lucky this will bring things under control and resolve the issues.

Pictures of my first real parts follow. As you can see, the cable chain links were printed with a large raft to promote adhesion. The bed cracked part way through printing, though it was held together with the tape. Use of the tape likely increased the thermal differential even further, promoting the failure. The yellow stuff around the edge was from some attempts I made to print with ABS juice, which did not seem to work well. For printing, bed temp was set 110C, and nozzle temp 260C. Sliced with Cura, 0.1mm layer thickness. Layer adhesion was excellent, although it struggled with the bridge across the top of the links, as can be seen from the top right hand link in the 'chain links on raft' picture.

Hope you found this informative and of interest.

Onward and hopefully upward.

Best Regards

picclock 
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline RussellT

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2016, 05:32:34 AM »
Can you find an oven door window the right sort of size?

Russell
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Offline BillTodd

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2016, 05:44:59 AM »
Does the bed need to be glass?

was glass suggested because it readily available and flat to a few thou?

the model is stuck to a layer of tape or lacquer so , would any flat surface work?

Tooling plate anyone?
Bill

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2016, 06:50:07 AM »
@ RusselT
Oven door glass would be good but I believe it is tempered. This occurs after it is cut to size and any further attempts to cut it will cause it to break.

@BillTodd
Thats the very question I have been asking myself. I have a sheet of 4mm Aluminium, T6 I think, which could easily be used as a bed, and made heated by the addition of some resisters. This would allow much higher power and placement of the resisters could be (skilfully ?  :palm:) made to even out the temperature differentials across the surface. However, from internet research it seems that this is not an approved solution, with various problems cited. I forsee a couple of issues but nothing major. One is that the top surface cannot be replaced, so once it is damaged its there forever. Another is that of surface warping/bending due to uneven heating. I think this could be largely eliminated by resister positioning and multipoint bed probing for auto levelling.

But the issue is that glass will happily withstand the bed temperatures providing they are equalised throughout the material, and this will need to be sorted for any solution to be effective. Will try a heat spreader - hopefully today and map the temperature differential.

Best Regards

picclock

Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline Sid_Vicious

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2016, 12:43:34 PM »
Tempered glass can be cut with an anglegrinder if you are careful, so if you can pick some stove glass you could give it a try.
Nothing is impossible, it just take more time to figure out.

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2016, 07:35:55 AM »
Just thought I'd share my experiences with a very low cost webcam. Advertised from ebay :
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-USB-2-0-PC-Camera-HD-Webcam-Camera-Web-Cam-With-MIC-For-Computer-PC-Laptop-/311435955773?hash=item4883078e3d:g:ipYAAOSwd0BV5En1

With the original description original Mini-USB-2-0-PC-Camera-HD-Webcam-Camera-Web-Cam-With-MIC-For-Computer-PC-Laptop

So I did what most rational people would do, having checked its functionality, and not believing a word of the advert, I took it apart. Did a quick internet search for the pcb number, and came up with :

http://www.penguin.cz/~utx/hardware/USB_Camera_AX2311/#cheap_usb_web_camera_teardown_analysis_and_examples

from Stanislav Brabec. So my HD webcam is in fact a more sedate 640x480 1.2Mpixel device. However, I am not surprised, as this is pretty much exactly what I needed, and combined with the any position camera neck and suction base I think that at £3.66 it represents very good value for money, though I have since seen it cheaper. The only mod I made to the camera was to remove a plastic ledge from around the base of the lens to allow me to focus it more easily. I found this works in Octopi with camera_usb_options="./mjpg_streamer -r 640x480 -y -n" set in octopi.txt

You can see the quality in one of the pictures which show it in operation.

Best Regards

picclock

Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2016, 08:26:54 AM »
A little more info. Earlier, i was having issues with bed glass cracking due to differential expansion. I measured a centre to edge glass temperature around 50C, hence the glass failure. I then fitted a 1mm aluminium heat spreader between the glass and pcb heater. This worked incredibly well, bringing the differential, centre to edge down to about 5C. After taping the edge the the difference over the bed is around 1 or two C, pretty perfect. However this has shown up weaknesses in the pcb heater, as it now reaches 100C/ with an ambient of 10C, which is a bit on the edge, but at least it allows abs prints to stick (with applications of hairspray, followed by ABS juice). I think it likely I will replace the pcb bed heater and spreader with a 2mm aluminium sheet with resisters attached, as this would allow double the heating power with much faster warmups. Because the sheet will be warmed evenly no warping should occur - well maybe.

So onto printing my first working parts - at least attempting to. In order to get parts flat I have found the use of a raft is essential. Picture shows raft pieces being broken out. However, if you look carefully at the topside picture you will see the top of the spur gear is missing. I thought this was a slicer area or software issue, but I later found the filament had caught in one of the notches on the supply reel, resulting in the filament being shredded in the extruder. Extruder maintenance now needed  :drool:

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2016, 11:49:09 AM »
Hi picclock,

You are advancing very well indeed!  :thumbup: and solving the cracking glass plate matter as well - very good!

I notice that you are using a good skirt or raft which I also think is very useful when printing. All the parts I got to build my machine had the same type of raft. simple to clean out and it gives flat prints very well. Bugger about the filament catching the spool and shredding just at the final bit.

You are well on your way now.

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2016, 04:46:29 AM »
Hi All

So having got to the stage where I can print some stuff I thought I would have a go at designing a new X carriage and printing it. It will incorporate a servo for automated bed levelling/calibration, a longer std Lm8Luu for the upper bearing and a std LM8uu for the lower one. I decided to use Designspark Mechanical because it is the right price (free !!) and simple to use - a definite requirement.

As you can see from the pictures I made the rookie mistake of generating an unsupported edge at the bottom which came out straggly. The part shown is still attached to the raft which will break away easily if I decide to use it.

I have also decided to scrap the underperforming heater bed and replace it with an aluminium plate heated with resistors. See next post.

Thanks for your interest

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2016, 12:11:57 PM »
Sadly the above part did not conform to the drawing  :scratch:. There appears to be a fixed extrusion error which makes all the parts 0.14mm larger than they should be in the X and Y direction. This is not a scale error, but a fixed addition. So that whether the part is 10 or 30mm long the length will be increased by 0.14mm. This also makes slots or gaps approx 0.28mm smaller. The part was made with ABS, a 0.4mm nozzle (Std E3D V6) and a 0.2mm layer height. I have tried adjusting the extrusion rate (Cura Flow) to 80% but this just seems to create weaker parts, with minimal effect on size change. The positional accuracy of the nozzle is pretty good (X is amazing < 1 thou deviation over 20mm), see attached pdf. So I think its likely that the slicer is not correctly calculating the extrusion bead thickness. I have checked the filament diameter, and its very good, varying between 1.69 and 1.75 mm. I have also checked that the correct amount of filament is being extruded by the firmware, and its spot on.

Any thoughts or ideas or fixes ( :beer:) much appreciated.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2016, 05:08:34 PM »
picclock,

I am inclined to go along with the answers in Pete49's thread in that the oversize is due to good accuracy  :loco:

What I mean is that your extruder nozzle lays the melt string at the center of the line stated in the program but it flows out a bit on either side then making the part ever so slightly wider than was expected. So like already suggested, try to compensate that by decreasing the important measures according to the overflow to give a detail taht is spot on.

You seem to have very consistent measures so accuracy is really not a problem. It is just necessary to compensate for the true width of the melt string to get items on spot.

One of those parameters to compensate for that was not obvious from the beginning.  Oh how much one learns from all these threads.

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2016, 09:52:29 AM »
Hi PeterE

I'm pretty sure the slicer is supposed to compensate for the extruded bead width. I tried  the craftware slicer on one of my test pieces printed with 0.4mm nozzle and 0.2mm layer height as before, and although for some reason it failed to complete the print, when I measured the base it was pretty spot on, 19.99x 20.02 ~ so they clearly got that bit right. It sort of confirms my guess that the slicer is causing the issue.

Think I just need to find the right slicer. Am going to try slice3r, kisslicer, repsnapper, and any others that come to mind, feel free to recommend an alternate.

Best Regards

picclock 
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline PeterE

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2016, 03:51:01 PM »
I see. I downloaded a copy of Repetier Host as I have heard good things about it, and if I remeber correctly it included the slice3r. A program I also saw mentioned in a copy of 3D make magazine. Supposed to be quite OK to use.

Then about the mis-settings in your current slicer. Could it be that there is a setting possibility to adjust the extruder centerline so it follows the center of the path rather than the outer edge - which is how I get the impression it does from your description. (Odd description but I hope you can follow my thought.)

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline Pete49

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2016, 02:10:50 AM »
picklock just a thought re the glass bed .When the bed on the Da Vinci chipped (cheap glass) I got a replacement borosilicate with the heater attached from a guy in Dallas Tx for about $Au70 including shipping. I am thinking about getting 1 for the CTC kit printer as it will heat the whole plate without needing to worry about it not being uniform heat.
Pete
oops..........oh no.........blast now I need to redo it

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2016, 03:38:28 AM »
@ PeterE
I've just done a run through on some of the other slicers. Some are a pain to use or have other snags. Slic3R is OK, but the dimensional error is much larger than Cura ~1.6 times. However the finish is the best I have seen. It also seems to round all the corners, which looks very good, but not suitable for accurate parts. Cura have a new beta version which I may have a go with as it seems to offer lots more controls for tweaking. My current thinking is that the error may be fixable by specifying an oversize nozzle in the slicer - say 0.43mm - which will hopefully alter the final size. I may have another go with craftware to see if I can get it to finish the test piece as it seems by far the most accurate.

@Pete49
Do you have a link for the borosilicate glass/heater site ?. I know that borosilicate expands far less with temperature, which causes less stress on the glass when heating, so hopefully no more cracks. Its thermal conductivity is still fairly poor, so it will not do well at spreading the heat. With 200x better thermal conductivity even a thin layer of Aluminium will be effective. Have read differing things on the internet about borosilicate durability though, with some suggesting abrading the surface to get grip. To  to avoid warping (nylon  :palm:), especially on larger parts, would seem to require an enclosure to prevent localised cooling from drafts. I have thought about using a balsa wood rim extending about 1" above the edge of the printbed to try to contain the hot air (or at least keep out the side drafts) as the bed moves. Problem is that hot air is less dense than cold, so it will always try to escape upwards. Heated enclosure anyone ??  Tricky stuff !!

Good luck with solving your new printer issues.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline Pete49

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2016, 11:58:57 PM »
I can't find my invoice with the details but here is his email address jdholbrook33(at)yahoo.com
If that doesn't work here is the link I used to contact him originally
http://www.soliforum.com/topic/9642/da-vinci-borosilicate-glass-with-heater/
Hope it helps
Pete
oops..........oh no.........blast now I need to redo it

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2016, 12:59:58 PM »
@ Pete49
Thanks for the info, I'll see if I can track him down.

Slicer Success  :ddb: (finally)
Using the new Cura 2.1 beta slicer, (it has some bugs). I have found an adjustment for horizontal expansion which allows calibration of the XY sizes. Tried it with -0.15mm and the test piece came out 0.3mm smaller than the original oversize one - so it just needs half to correct the overall size error. Also tried another tricky piece and it worked just fine. Quite a relief after all the slicers I have tried.

Hope this helps

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #59 on: June 06, 2016, 08:22:27 AM »
Hi all

So I have my printer up and running (mostly). I have replaced the original X carriage and extruder, and fitted a bed levelling servo, all very worthwhile. The extruder upgrade allows instant changing of filament and jams are a thing of the past. The bed leveling system is worth persevering with and works really well. Main snag I found was that the cura slicer preamble inserts an G90 absolute positioning code which destroys the bed levelling settings in marlin - so I edited the cura definition files to remove it.
 
But (there always is one  :scratch:) the performance is poor by my standards, probably aggravated by the use of ABS, needed for its higher temperature stability. The problem is warping of the part caused by the differential expansion of the plastic. The initial layer is stuck onto the bed by a combination of heat, pressure and a certain amount of magic  :med: in the form of ABS juice, PVA, hairspray, or whatever works for you. Bed adhesion does not seem to be a problem using just dilute PVA, and if you add ABS juice to it you will have a very hard time removing the part, however I digress. Once the initial layer is attached the next layer is added. The temperature of the subsequent layer is determined by temperature of 1st layer, surrounding temperature, and radiation/convection of the same. Subsequent layers therefore experience a different temperature depending of the heat losses of the layer, layer size (more time to cool for larger parts) to which to adhere. If the plastic is extruded from the nozzle at 240C, and the temperature at which it hardens is 100C then the surface temperature to which the subsequent layer attaches is very poorly defined. Once removed from the bed the temperature of the layers will becomes equal and warping occurs, because at the same temperature the layers are different sizes. It always seems that the bottom layer becomes convex which implies that the temperature of the plastic when deposted, bonded and hardend is higher than that of the bed, presumably because the heat maintained in the previous layer is greater than the bed temperature. So the upper layers shrink more and warping occurs.

ABS has a glass temperature of around 100C so one would think that provided all the layers were bonded at that temperature warping should be a thing of the past. I have already taken steps to guard the print bed from drafts but this does not seem to have improved things much, despite having an internal temp of ~ 40C.

It occurred to me that it may be possible to solve two problems with one solution. Instead of using a heated bed which adds to the Y axis movement mass, why not heat the whole interior of the machine to 100C using circulated air to even out the temp differential. Could use heat bed controls with fan for circulation. This would eliminate the need for an underglass aluminium heat spreader as the whole interior would be at one elevated temperature. To prevent heat damaging the extruder, belt, motor etc a plastic oven bag or sliding fibreglass/srbp heat seal could be used, attached just above the print head as a possible solution, minimising heat loss.

Still at the thinking stage on this so if anyone has tried this or has any further thoughts on this solution please contribute.

Best Regards

picclock. 
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline efrench

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #60 on: June 06, 2016, 06:30:18 PM »
Are you removing the part before it has cooled to room temperature?  Try using a larger brim and/or adding pads at each corner to help it stay attached to the bed.

For ABS, I start the first layer at 240 degrees for the hotend and 115 for the bed, then drop these to 230 and 100 for subsequent layers.  My bed is 8mm cast aluminum with a 2mm glass mirror on top, so the actual bed temperature will be somewhat less.   I'm using ABS juice and if the print shows any signs of lifting, I'll give that spot a little squirt of the juice being careful to just get it on the brim.

I think it's more important to eliminate drafts than it is to heat the entire chamber. I'm using this to enclose the printer.  I printed a few brackets to attach it to the aluminum extrusion. 

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #61 on: June 07, 2016, 02:38:46 AM »
Hi efrench

This is not a problem about bed adhesion, though I found that tricky at first. I'm using 100 or 110 for the bed and 260 for the filament - which may be a bit high but it generally seems to work well. I usually print with a brim and I don't get corner lifting, or if I do its very minor. Some of the best results seem to come when using a raft which effectively throws away the first three layers. The trouble with using a raft is that the finish is poor on the detached face.

Using PVA and a light smear of abs juice attaches prints almost too well, but that is not an issue. I always wait for prints to cool but once released they start to warp. The upper individual strands are under tension, the lower under compression and the only thing resisting this change is the stiffness of the material. I did a test with a heat gun warming a part and the warp increased from about 3mm to 7mm over 100mm.

Clearly this is an issue that needs solving. I understand that Ultimaker uses a fan blowing temperature controlled air across the top layer during printing as a way to improve this issue. Having thought about the heated chamber idea a bit more it occurred to me that I could do something similar and attach it to the print head. By attaching a conical hot air duct (made using soldered tin can) to the nozzle and heating the air with a couple of 40W cartridge heaters with a heat exchanger, I could use the waste air from the head cooling fan to cool the extruded bead in a controlled fashion, hopefully eliminating (or at least minimising) the problem. It should be possible to control the air temperature and set it just below the glass temperature of the plastic being used. Ramps and marlin allow for a second extruder so the temp control is already there with the addition of a thermistor. Not sure if that makes much sense but it is very much an idea in progress  :coffee:

Best Regards

picclock
 

   



Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline efrench

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #62 on: June 07, 2016, 04:25:58 AM »
Have you tried normalizing the print with the heat gun before removing it from the bed? It might work.  I haven't had any warping problems when the print stays attached to the bed, so haven't tried this.

I had a jamming issue which turned out to be lousy diameter control on some cheap filament.  Before I discovered the source of the problem, I increased the temp to 260. While this lessened the jamming problem, it didn't cure it.  After putting on better filament, I printed a temperature calibration object (just a tall single wall rectangle). I edited the gcode to change the temperature 5 degrees every 10mm.  After inspecting the print I lowered the temperature to  240/230.


Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2016, 09:39:39 AM »
hi efrench

The reason for 260C temp was to try to improve layer bonding. On tall objects there are visible gaps in part of the layers which start typically at 2-3 cms and occur every few cms after. I suspect the layer bonding and object warping are all part of the same problem. Thanks for the idea of heat treating the part before removal. It may well be a simple, viable solution and I will give it a try. I am not overly keen on it as it may introduce other dimensional errors but its certainly worth a shot. I suspect the trick is just to supply the right temperature for the right amount of time .. .   Also thought I might experiment with a heated chamber using my heat gun as a 1 off to try it - probably about 100C should do it.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline Pete49

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2016, 11:31:08 PM »
picklock just a quick question if I may.  :poke: Now I have my kit printer working well  :) I was looking at the miles of wiring and wondered if I could cut it to a more reasonable size, not the motors they seem to be just right but the other wires such as the sensors and limit switches.. I was hoping to cut and resolder them rather than have them coiled up but that seems to be the norm. Would this affect the components?
Now returning you to the previous program errr thread.  :beer:
Pete
oops..........oh no.........blast now I need to redo it

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2016, 01:16:37 AM »
Hi Pete49

By all means shorten the leads to suit your layout, there are no technical issues with this. Just be sure you don't make them too short  :palm:, allowing enough length for the X and Y axis extremities. Two ways, best is to get a ratchet crimp tool and some 'dupont' crimps for the black receptacles on the ramps board, unclip original (use pin), cut wire to length, crimp new connector, reinsert into receptacle. Easiest way is to use some heatshrink sleeving 2 or 3mm, cut wire in an appropriate place, shorten to length, put heatshrink over one wire to be joined ~ approx 12mm. Strip and tin ends of wire to about 3mm. Hold one wire in vice/clamp etc.,  and then hold the two tinned sections adjacent and parallel. Just touch them with the soldering iron and surface tension will do the rest. Slide heatshrink over the joint and either use a heatgun, lighter, or the hot part of soldering iron under the tubing and it will shrink to size, supporting and insulating the joint. Heatshrink kits can be bought for a few pounds on ebay, and are useful for many things.

Good luck

Best Regards

picclock 
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline Pete49

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2016, 11:37:47 PM »
Thanks for the reply. I have lots of heatshrink to fit the wires so the next project is going ahead.
I made a cardboard surround lined with alfoil to retain the warmth which works well and the power unit and Arduino board are outside of this to avoid heat related complications. I decided on cardboard (the type with 3 layers 2 smooth and an inner of corrugated cardboard compliments of her new TV) due to lightness, ease of access and the fact that our mild winters don't require extra padding. The only thing I felt needed extra work was making a base for it to sit on so I could secure the printer to it to make the print bed less flexible.
Pete
oops..........oh no.........blast now I need to redo it

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2016, 06:36:28 AM »
Hi Pete49
The base of any accurate machine is the most important part, as all accuracy depends on its stability. I used a granite kitchentop for mine, granite being commonly used for accurate measuring systems. For this sort of stuff most decent non temperature/humidity affected materials will work OK, and best of all, when you set stuff on it, it accurately stays there.

Good Luck

Best Regards

picclock
 
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline Pete49

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2016, 10:38:04 PM »
Hi Pete49
The base of any accurate machine is the most important part, as all accuracy depends on its stability. I used a granite kitchentop for mine, granite being commonly used for accurate measuring systems. For this sort of stuff most decent non temperature/humidity affected materials will work OK, and best of all, when you set stuff on it, it accurately stays there. picklock

These are my thoughts too and the reason for wanting a base to solidify the machine. At the moment the heater bed section can move about 6mm either way and while it hasn't moved during printing yet I prefer it not to be able to move at all so a good base is my next move. The wiring mess has been brought under control while I wait for my new 2560 board. I haven't found the cause of the reason it went dark but I'm still looking :doh:
Pete
oops..........oh no.........blast now I need to redo it

Offline picclock

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #69 on: June 15, 2016, 03:27:14 AM »
Hi Pete49

I had that happen to me early on. Turned out the on board regulator chip had died. I think it might happen when you plug it into USB (3?) whilst its still powered up. If the power to the USB goes the board tries to power it and it overloads the chip and its game over  :zap:. I replaced mine with a 7805 (see piccy) and once working then proceeded to blow up a different part of it by accident  :wack:. After that I ordered two, one for a spare.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

Offline awemawson

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #70 on: June 15, 2016, 06:01:58 AM »
Neat leg bending on that regulator  :thumbup:
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Pete49

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Re: picclock's modified i3 3d printer attempt
« Reply #71 on: June 15, 2016, 11:16:59 PM »
Ta I'll check that as I'm sure I did something similar. How do I check it? I can sympathise with you blowing anther place. I managed to kill the Da Vinci by shorting the thermistor by cleaning it with the supplied brass brush while the power was on.  They don't have a fuse as such just a o value resistor which I fixed by removal and a wire across the gap and put a 4A fuse in line. fired it up and the fuse blew now looking at finding that fault. :Doh:  No rest for the wicked at the moment.
Pete
oops..........oh no.........blast now I need to redo it