Author Topic: Is it Dead?  (Read 13897 times)

Offline Darren

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Is it Dead?
« on: May 10, 2009, 02:02:40 PM »
I was digging around my shed earlier and I found this....(I also found what I was looking for next to it  :ddb:)


I didn't even know I had it, no idea where it came from, but some monkey has drilled the life and soul out of it. Some people should never be allowed to breathe from birth  :bang:

Anyways, it seems to be a really nice and heavy vice, very well made by the look of it. It's a 4" Abwood.
It all operates nice and smoothly, I have stripped it down and it seems to have had little use. No signs of any whear on the gibbs, leadscrew and nut etc.

Can it be saved?
I'm thinking strip it down, machine out the damaged area, fit a new plate and machine that to size it situ clamped on the mill to replace the damaged area.

Another idea it to make some new jaw plates with a step at the bottom to sit parallels and work on?

Or am I shooting stars here?

 :scratch:





Edit, I have removed the jaws and they are sitting on each side....

« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 02:04:36 PM by Darren »
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Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2009, 02:11:45 PM »
Looking at this on Ebay it seems identical, or as good as

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JONES-SHIPMAN-MACHINE-VICE_W0QQitemZ290313493939QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item290313493939&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1688|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A1|294%3A50


Be a shame to scrap what I have
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2009, 02:29:46 PM »
It really annoys me when I see tools abused like that all that was required was a little care.

You could certainly try machining out the bad bit and putting a mild steel plate in it, it may not take too long. It looks like someone has used it without jaws so you would have to machine the faces up square again before making new jaws, gauge plate would be the best material to make them from if you can get hold of a piece thick enough, or you could try milling up a bit of the softer centre of that halve shaft.

Good luck

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2009, 02:36:32 PM »
Hi Stew,

The jaws are there, I've taken them off and they are sitting on the sides of the vice.

The vice surfaces seem to be ok, thankfully, but it will need new jaws made up.

Gauge plate, how hard is that to machine?
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2009, 02:49:01 PM »
Darren

Its not too bad, its the flat version of silver steel, just a bit tougher than your run of the mill mild steel just take smaller cut and use coolant if you've got it. Those halve shafts will be good tough steel, but don't use the hard outer skin machine that away first in your lathe, than mill you jaws out of the middle bit of its big enough.

The working bit of the vice is under the moving jaw so as long as thats not to damaged it should work OK what you need is to replace the damaged surface with something flat so you can work with parallels, just mill the bad bit out and insert a bit of mild steel held in place with some counter sunk cap screws than skim it up level, should be ok  :thumbup:

Cheers

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline SPiN Racing

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2009, 05:24:07 PM »
WOW so thats a WWII armor plate from a tank or something??


OH WAIT NO!!!! ITS A VICE!!!



Yeah the Bridgeport Vice I got with my Chinese Clone had a few artillery shell marks in it. Annoys the crap outta me.  I almost considered welding them in and trying to grind it smooth etc.. but Then thought of warping castings and things... Thankfully mine isnt so bad.. well.. it is.. but compared to that.. its a slight blemish on mine.
SPiN Racing

bogstandard

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2009, 06:23:32 PM »
Dear me Darren, are you sure that can still be classed as a vice?

To me it looks like, cylinders, pistons, bedplates, more tooling for the shop, in fact anything other than a vice.

I tend to change my vices fairly regularly, so if you are that desperate, you can have my old one when it becomes available in a couple of years time.

And here is me thinking mine was in a bad way because I forgot to turn the power feed off, and dragged a non rotating cutter across the top of mine. BTW the cutter was scrap afterwards.


Bogs






Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2009, 06:35:51 PM »
You might have a point there John,

I've been looking at it again tonight wondering if it's worth the effort. Shame really cos it really does look little used apart from the holes and slides really nicely.

You have to wonder if this damage has been deliberate, surely no-one keeps making the same mistakes !!

I dunno, I'll look at it some more  and try to see little engines.... :ddb:
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Offline CrewCab

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2009, 06:38:36 PM »
Some people should never be allowed to breathe from birth  :bang:

Quite so  :hammer: ................... as for the vice ................. I think it would be kinder to let it quietly pass on ................. or recycle that is  :thumbup: methinks it's "vice" days are up  :bugeye:

CC

bogstandard

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2009, 08:12:11 PM »
No Darren, it is not deliberate as such.

I have seen them like this before.

Imagine a back street workshop, a one brain celled moron, a very large continuous production job, and a boss that says 'just get it done'. Also he most probably wasn't using the vice to hold the part, just plonking the job on the top of the jaws for support while he drilled a thru hole. Holding the job with one hand and drilling thru with the other, also the vice was most probably not even bolted down, just dropped onto a drill press. Some people haven't the mentality to realise, that is the reason for a ready made hole in a drill press table, goodness knows what someone like that would think what the hole is for.

Somewhere to rest his finger when it wasn't up his a**e nose.


Bogs

Offline Bernd

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2009, 08:21:02 PM »
Hey Darren, I see a small vise in that cast iron.  :thumbup:

Bernd
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Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2009, 04:29:43 AM »
just plonking the job on the top of the jaws for support while he drilled a thru hole.


Ah yes, that would explain it..... :)  Thanks


Shame he didn't use a drill press vice, the moron... :bang:
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Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2009, 04:30:46 AM »
A small vice eh, that's good Bernd... :thumbup:

I was seeing a small sliding platform, what for I dunno... :scratch:
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Offline John Hill

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2009, 03:44:23 PM »
Fix it Darren! You can make it at least look like new!  Fill those divots with your favourite filler,  mill out that mungary bit and fit a new bit, make new jaws,  paint it and show us the pictures.

You can do it!:nrocks:
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Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2009, 06:51:38 PM »
Fix it Darren!

Quite right John, quite right you are mate.... :thumbup:

Despite the near ridicule for even showing and suggesting that this battered lump might be worth saving, I decided to have a stab at it on the quiet.

The way I saw it was that I had absolutely nothing to loose, throw it in the materials bin, or have a go. If it didn't work then nothing lost.

Two things have happened. Firstly I have gained a very nice and indeed expensive vice, secondly I have learnt quite a bit about milling cast iron and super hard vice jaws... :bugeye:
I'm pleased to say both cut like butter on the milling machine, the jaws I was not expecting to me able to do anything with.

I'll throw some pic's in

The vice as it was



In the base between the jaws I came to the conclusion that all that was required was a flat surface to rest parallels or work onto squarely. So I just milled it down till I had an acceptable platform to do just this. Sorry no picture, I will take one later.

Removed the jaws and attacked the vice body to remove the drill marks



On the fixed jaw the cast iron was rock hard, prob induction hardened, so I used a carbide milling cutter. I didn't want to test this with a new cutter so I used one that was in a terrible state. But first I had to put an edge onto two of the remaining teeth with a diamond wheel. I did this by hand as I have no other means of sharpening milling cutters, yet. I didn't really expect this to work, but it did and cut the whole job from start to finish and it's still sharp !!
Wonders will never cease. It cut like butter too, hardly any vibration or complaint from the machine.... :thumbup:

Here is the cutter, don't laugh...





Here is a video of it cutting the hardened jaws, you will see a container of white spirit. Notice the lack of vibration, normally this would jump off the mill bed but it stayed there the whole time.
And this is why, I think?

My other vice you can see is a lot taller, 4" taller in fact. Two things happen when using the lower vice. Firstly I can lower the mill column by 4", secondly the tall vice gives leverage to the bed when under a tough milling job such as what I am doing here.
But most of all, this is a really nice quality vice, and it shows !!

Milling this tough metal was like milling brass on the taller vice, wonderful, absolutely B****y wonderful.... :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: Answers a lot of questions for me this does.... :dremel:

Taking 0.1mm cut on the hardened jaws at my fastest auto feed



I turned the battered jaws upside down, but they now need truing up



This is a deep as this cutter will go, have to use a longer one but that's enough for one night !!





Having machined this vice up, and seeing how smoothly it went, I can see that I'm going to enjoy using it when it's finished. I'd like to finish it off with a diamond disk to improve the finish, not that it's that bad as it is.


« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 07:20:44 PM by Darren »
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Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2009, 06:57:43 PM »
Oh, and why the step in the main body...?

Well if I remove the movable jaw plate I can hold a large piece of flat plate, what's more it will be truly flat as the vice have been machined on this very milling machine... :)
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2009, 01:09:05 AM »
Well done Darren  :thumbup: Its always satisfying when you turn a no hopper onto a useful bit of kit,

For some reason the pics have not opened up any one else had problems  :scratch:

Stew

PS

Pics loaded up second time of asking and wow thats some impresive bit of milling really ripping along very well done Darren with that tool regrind,

Stew
« Last Edit: June 09, 2009, 01:16:37 AM by sbwhart »
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2009, 08:27:43 AM »
Sound job done well there, Darren!  :clap:

I like your idea for flat plate work......  :thumbup:

BUT be carefull not to drill through into the vice!  :lol:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2009, 05:47:28 AM »
Thanks David,

I'll see if I can remember not to do that..... :lol:

I decides to clean up one of the jaw plates last night as the faces where in a teriible state. First it was milled by clamping on the top of the vice as described previously.

I used a new cutter and the finish was excellent, would have been good enough as is, but I decided to wipe a diamond file over it to finish off..

It ended up with a parallelism of 0.01mm, better than the original.... :)



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bogstandard

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2009, 05:53:58 AM »
I haven't been able to follow this post up to now, but you are doing a great job Darren, bringing it back from the brink.


John

Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2009, 12:06:41 PM »
Thanks John, so far it's been yet another good learning exercise for me. I have a bit more to do to it yet, but I think it's gonna be a keeper.

I will know when it's put to proper use  :ddb:
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Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2009, 07:56:23 PM »
I decided tonight that I'd attacked this completely the wrong way, as in order of tasks....never mind, the practice was good.

When I turned the jaw plates upside down I realised that they were now resting on the screw threads holding them on. No longer the lip in the casting and thus having no positive positioning.
Long term this could have been a disaster...

So, now machining the little steps to sit the plates on. At the same time truing the fixed jaw..... :ddb:



Fitted the jaw plate and decided to have a go at truing that up too using the end mill side cutting flutes. It worked rather well and the finish is excellent...



Now the same to the movable jaw face



The tops of the jaw plates were re-machined.......again.....final time  :med:

And the whole top area cleaned and trued up



Added a 3mm wide 1mm deep relief slot for better seating of flat plates etc..



Just a little de-buring to do now and all the important bits are done...finished. I'm glad I had another go at it, re-machining the plates and jaws this way have really trued everything up perfectly, Grips like an ox  :)
Really pleased with the way this has turned out, it might even get a proper clean up and a coat of paint.... :lol:

Just a vice stop and maybe a locating slot on the underside to do now.

I have to say, I never expected to be able to do this, exp the jaw plates !!

« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 04:33:18 AM by Darren »
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Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2009, 07:05:33 AM »
Most vices lift the movable jaw upwards when tightened, I'm not sure about this one as I have not tested it.

I was thinking, the moveable jaw is normally pushed tight by the clamping screw and this is what causes the lift.

What if the movable jaw was pulled by the screw, wouldn't that have the opposite effect and pull the jaw down?

If the clamping screw was help at the fixed jaw end and the movable jaw ran along it's thread then this should work?

Anyone?

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Offline Darren

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2009, 07:12:31 AM »
Ah, like this one.... :)
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Is it Dead?
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2009, 11:59:37 AM »
Darren,

The vertical movement in the moveable jaw is due to clearance in the slideways allowing it to lift.....  :scratch:

At work I always kept the slide screws nipped, so not allowing any excess movement....  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!